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Vontoothskie

Do huge ships seem massively undercosted?

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10 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I dont think that Raider and Wampa would actually be good in standard format :D

You'd stay clear of the front 180 forever and range control/arc spread the Point Defence.

Only 2 of the 4 PD shots would even be modified.

Would depend on Wampa bossing the endgame 🤣

 

Even worse, if the Imp player fired all 4 PD shots they'd be running critically low on Energy in the next turn. Especially if they did a Red maneuver or action. And if their opponent was running any Ion, well, say good buy to your energy before you can fire a single shot.

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1 hour ago, Faerie1979 said:

 

Even worse, if the Imp player fired all 4 PD shots they'd be running critically low on Energy in the next turn. Especially if they did a Red maneuver or action. And if their opponent was running any Ion, well, say good buy to your energy before you can fire a single shot.

3 charges of Tibanna, plus the 2 energy regen, would cover the usage for a little bit. Barring any outside deleterious effects.

I'm actually struggling to see what other cargo I'd take over Tibanna atm, energy management is so critical. It will all bear play testing for ourselves to see ofc.

In 1.0, I generally preferred the munition based builds. Taking the strain off of the energy resources was very helpful. I haven't been able to make out the text on Ordnance Tubes yet to know what direction that will take in 2.0.

Still, they've clearly tried to address the slowly sinking ship dynamic of energy and regen in 1.0. Hopefully, energy management is more proactive than reactive now.

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On 11/2/2019 at 7:27 PM, Vontoothskie said:

so some rudimentary exploration of points reveals a couple glaring issues:

-3 Gr75 gunboats with hardpoints fit in a 200 point list: thats 45 regening hp, 2 seperate attacks, entirety of 3'x3' board in range turn 1 (one attack at 20 inches from the front of an 8 inch long ship).  compare to 3 Vcx100s which dont fit at 200 points and are worse in every category save maneuverability

-an Imp Assault carrier with ion cannon battery and tibanna reserves cost the same (69 points) as a Defender generic

-naked bossk in Yv666 is 64 points... the same as a CROC with Ion cannon battery. these 2 even have similar stats and dials, but the CROC regens, gets a bonus 4 dice ion attack, better actions, is tougher, harder to ionize or control, etc.

-2 ion cannon scyks cost more than an ion battery CROC... utterly mindblowing

anyone else seeing some problems here?  It honestly looks like the point pricing either wasnt tested or was purposefully set low to encourage customers to buy and fly multiple Huge expansions instead of anything else

I think your fears are unwarranted.   The GR-75 only has 2 red dice out the front for a weapon, unless you get a Hardpoint.  A VCX-100 has 4 red dice main weapon.   The firepower of the smaller Huge ships are not that powerful and these things will be pretty easy to swarm.  

I think the only problem is if someone plops one down against a tournament list of something like 3 Jedi.  I doubt the Jedi will die, but it might take forever to burn a GR-75 down to half.

The Huge ships are cheaper in points, but it won't take that much effort to destroy one.  After shields are down, the crits will really hurt it.  The huge ships are pretty predictable and are a bit limited in weapons.  If you can get in close or out of arc of the main weapon, you can burn it down fast.

I say the Huge ships are priced fine even for normal games.  You just need to not put your points in a few hard to hit aces.

39 minutes ago, Matanui3 said:

The three “small” Huge ships are 60 points or less.  Think about this: Aces High, but with Huge ships.

It will be glorious and terrible.

Yeah, I had thought of that.  It would be crazy.  Hard to balance with points as the smaller ships can't get up to the same points level and you can't add in small Fighter escorts.

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14 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

dude the Raider could potentially throw 24 red dice a turn!

Walk me through; I highly doubt this is possible.

The best possible round a Raider could ever have:

• R1 Bullseye Primary – 6 Dice (if your opponent is that dumb) – 0 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Bullseye Adv Protorp – 6 dice (good luck) – 1 Energy

• R1 Bullseye Cluster Missiles – 4 dice (same target I guess) + 3 Dice – 1 Energy

That's 27 red dice. Sure, that's a lot, but

a) this is an extremely unrealistic scenario, assuming you have a R1 bullseye target that doesn't get immediately evaporated, and

b) It uses all of the energy your ship has. You cannot do this for more than one turn. The max you can regen in a turn is 5, and that takes both your cargo slots and an action. You also need 2 energy to reload it all. You also need two actions to reload and get the lock, so none left for tibanna.

So the Raider could potentially throw 24 dice once per game. There's no way that thing's throwing 24 red dice a turn.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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13 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

1 thing that i forgot before, the reveal seems to be showing the huge ships having initiative 8... which maybe thats a typo? guess we'll find out in a few days

It isn't a typo. They activate at either I7 (Gozanti, C-ROC, and GR-75) or I8 (the corvettes) during the Activation Phase and engage at their second initiative number during the Engagement Phase. Go download the updated rules reference and read the Huge ship appendix starting on page 30. The RR is available in the Rule section of the Second Ed product page.

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3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Walk me through; I highly doubt this is possible.

The best possible round a Raider could ever have:

• R1 Bullseye Primary – 6 Dice (if your opponent is that dumb) – 0 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Bullseye Adv Protorp – 6 dice (good luck) – 1 Energy

• R1 Bullseye Cluster Missiles – 4 dice (same target I guess) + 3 Dice – 1 Energy

That's 27 red dice. Sure, that's a lot, but

a) this is an extremely unrealistic scenario, assuming you have a R1 bullseye target that doesn't get immediately evaporated, and

b) It uses all of the energy your ship has. You cannot do this for more than one turn. The max you can regen in a turn is 5, and that takes both your cargo slots and an action. You also need 2 energy to reload it all. You also need two actions to reload and get the lock, so none left for tibanna.

So the Raider could potentially throw 24 dice once per game. There's no way that thing's throwing 24 red dice a turn.

in 1.0 the Raider could throw 24 dice.  i was responding to a comment saying huge ships couldnt hurt anything in 1.0, to wit, TWENTY FOUR FRIGGIN HIT DICE

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1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

in 1.0 the Raider could throw 24 dice.  i was responding to a comment saying huge ships couldnt hurt anything in 1.0, to wit, TWENTY FOUR FRIGGIN HIT DICE

And my thought would be "so?"

My Imperial list can potentially throw out 14 red dice in one turn (photon torp or range 1 with Vader and range 1 with two Tie/LN Fighters). That is potentially deadly, and can chew through an enemy ship fast. On the other hand, I've also seen such a volley wiff entirely or barely scratch the target. If you're opponent is rolling hot or you're not, throwing 24 dice in one turn may well just mean that you blew all resources to no real effect, and left yourself open.  But if I'm reading the rules correctly (my copy of Epic Battles hasn't arrived, mind you) the CR90 as an example is not going to be throwing 20 dice very often. Aside from that requiring you spend all your energy (which you may not have 7 of by the time your ship can even fire), but it requires your opponent to have ships within your primary firing arcs (which are middle side arcs) at range of 1-4, ships in the turret arc for your turbolaser battery at range 3-5, and within range 1-2 of the Point Defense battery. I don't see that being a common scenario. I'm not particularly good at the game yet, but even I can probably arc dodge a Huge ship.

Edited by Faerie1979

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7 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Walk me through; I highly doubt this is possible.

The best possible round a Raider could ever have:

• R1 Bullseye Primary – 6 Dice (if your opponent is that dumb) – 0 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Point Defense Battery – 3 Dice – 1 Energy

• R1 Bullseye Adv Protorp – 6 dice (good luck) – 1 Energy

• R1 Bullseye Cluster Missiles – 4 dice (same target I guess) + 3 Dice – 1 Energy

That's 27 red dice. Sure, that's a lot, but

a) this is an extremely unrealistic scenario, assuming you have a R1 bullseye target that doesn't get immediately evaporated, and

b) It uses all of the energy your ship has. You cannot do this for more than one turn. The max you can regen in a turn is 5, and that takes both your cargo slots and an action. You also need 2 energy to reload it all. You also need two actions to reload and get the lock, so none left for tibanna.

So the Raider could potentially throw 24 dice once per game. There's no way that thing's throwing 24 red dice a turn.

So you're saying one of my ships could potentially roll 28 green dice in a turn?  Sweet, that's some great defense.

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27 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I can't read this without thinking, "OK, so it's big, but what's its THAC0?"

haha truth.  but in part THACO is why im worried about their costing.  many hardpoints(such as 4-red ion batteries or ordnance tubes) will land hits most of the time, even against 3 agility. so I wouldnt even bet on a tie fighter swarm chewing through 1 gr75 before a boardwipe... its straight up 3 Morbidly Obese Hans.

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5 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

haha truth.  but in part THACO is why im worried about their costing.  many hardpoints(such as 4-red ion batteries or ordnance tubes) will land hits most of the time, even against 3 agility. so I wouldnt even bet on a tie fighter swarm chewing through 1 gr75 before a boardwipe... its straight up 3 Morbidly Obese Hans.

It takes about 24 hits (minus fuel leaks and direct hits) to kill an 8 tie swarm, using ion cannons. Each ship will only be able to full mod one attack per round.

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Well, my Tantive IV expansion will be arriving on Thursday. So hopfully this weekend (or baring that next week Wednesday) I'll be able to field her. Theorycrafting, I don't see Huge ships being devastatingly powerful to the point only other Huge ships can handle them. But we'll see, wont we?

EDIT: I suspect what will happen if someone tries to use a Huge ship in a 200 point game is exactly what happened every time I used my Dwarven Steam Tank in Mage Knight. Namely the Huge ship gets an early kill in, but then is chewed up because it has no support and is out numbered. This is especially the case since Huge ships will almost always be shooting last.

Edited by Faerie1979

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6 hours ago, Faerie1979 said:

Namely the Huge ship gets an early kill in, but then is chewed up because it has no support and is out numbered. This is especially the case since Huge ships will almost always be shooting last.

And also, since the huge ship maneuvers are very predictable, you can arc-dodge their firearcs, and be able to pinch them where it hurts for a long time

Edited by Silver_leader

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On 11/5/2019 at 6:25 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Sometimes that's enough. . .

 

And sometimes you gotta throw Jonus on top

Just because

19 hours ago, Matanui3 said:

So you're saying one of my ships could potentially roll 28 green dice in a turn?  Sweet, that's some great defense.

...

HAH!

Edited by ficklegreendice

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16 hours ago, Faerie1979 said:

Well, my Tantive IV expansion will be arriving on Thursday. So hopfully this weekend (or baring that next week Wednesday) I'll be able to field her. Theorycrafting, I don't see Huge ships being devastatingly powerful to the point only other Huge ships can handle them. But we'll see, wont we?

EDIT: I suspect what will happen if someone tries to use a Huge ship in a 200 point game is exactly what happened every time I used my Dwarven Steam Tank in Mage Knight. Namely the Huge ship gets an early kill in, but then is chewed up because it has no support and is out numbered. This is especially the case since Huge ships will almost always be shooting last.

they wont be outnumbered against aces (3huge vs 2 or 3 small aces) and against swarms its only  at max a 3 vs 8, but the 8 will lose a ship turn 1, a second turn 2, and then get literally run over turn 3.  weve already played this game for 5 years, the rules havent changed enough to make 3 tie/ins worth an epic gunboat

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34 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

they wont be outnumbered against aces (3huge vs 2 or 3 small aces) and against swarms its only  at max a 3 vs 8, but the 8 will lose a ship turn 1, a second turn 2, and then get literally run over turn 3.  weve already played this game for 5 years, the rules havent changed enough to make 3 tie/ins worth an epic gunboat

Unlike in 1.0, a huge ship running over smaller ships doesn't instantly destroy them. It'll do a bit of damage which might not even get through all the ship's shields (assuming the ship has shields) then reposition the smaller ship at the rear of the Huge ship. That sounds like a rather large tactical blunder for the player of the Huge ship to make. They've now got an enemy ship in their rear arc. Something which the Huge ship will find rather difficult (maybe even impossible) to do anything about. Which also means the Huge ship likely can't shoot back. Do you really want to try running over a missile focused Y wing and let them constantly fire torpedoes into your rear arc, for example?

If you can afford multiple Huge ships in your 200 point list, odds are that each one isn't particularly durable. Which when combined with them tending to shoot at the end of the Engagement phase means they are probably easy for Aces to take out before they can do much damage. 3 shields with 1 recurring isn't that impressive. It just means your ship is more likely to go without taking damage if it's shot once or twice.

Now, the point costs of the smaller Huge ships does mean you can probably run one with a full assortment of upgrades in a 200 point game with a couple starfighters as a defensive screen. That might be effective, I don't know yet. But if you're running 3 GR-75, for example, you are probably running them very light on upgrades. Maybe you'll take a Hardpoint on each ship. In which case, it looks like your options might be limited to the Ion Battery, Point Defense Battery, and Targeting Battery. Sure, you could take Ordinance Tubes. But without a missile or Payload upgrade slot that's wasting your hardpoint. And it looks like only the Raider has missile or payload slots. You could put on a Turret, but that will effectively replace your primary weapon attack with whichever turret you picked when used.

I could be wrong since this is all theorycrafting right now. But 3 lightly upgraded GR-75 doesn't seem like it'd be a particularly smart decision. Neither does a single CR-90 with heavy upgrades or a CR-90 with no upgrades and an escort who's also unupgraded. And I don't see that being any less true for other factions either.

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7 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

Unlike in 1.0, a huge ship running over smaller ships doesn't instantly destroy them. It'll do a bit of damage which might not even get through all the ship's shields (assuming the ship has shields) then reposition the smaller ship at the rear of the Huge ship. That sounds like a rather large tactical blunder for the player of the Huge ship to make. They've now got an enemy ship in their rear arc. Something which the Huge ship will find rather difficult (maybe even impossible) to do anything about. Which also means the Huge ship likely can't shoot back. Do you really want to try running over a missile focused Y wing and let them constantly fire torpedoes into your rear arc, for example?

If you can afford multiple Huge ships in your 200 point list, odds are that each one isn't particularly durable. Which when combined with them tending to shoot at the end of the Engagement phase means they are probably easy for Aces to take out before they can do much damage. 3 shields with 1 recurring isn't that impressive. It just means your ship is more likely to go without taking damage if it's shot once or twice.

Now, the point costs of the smaller Huge ships does mean you can probably run one with a full assortment of upgrades in a 200 point game with a couple starfighters as a defensive screen. That might be effective, I don't know yet. But if you're running 3 GR-75, for example, you are probably running them very light on upgrades. Maybe you'll take a Hardpoint on each ship. In which case, it looks like your options might be limited to the Ion Battery, Point Defense Battery, and Targeting Battery. Sure, you could take Ordinance Tubes. But without a missile or Payload upgrade slot that's wasting your hardpoint. And it looks like only the Raider has missile or payload slots. You could put on a Turret, but that will effectively replace your primary weapon attack with whichever turret you picked when used.

I could be wrong since this is all theorycrafting right now. But 3 lightly upgraded GR-75 doesn't seem like it'd be a particularly smart decision. Neither does a single CR-90 with heavy upgrades or a CR-90 with no upgrades and an escort who's also unupgraded. And I don't see that being any less true for other factions either.

like you said its theory right now, but im not seeing any drawbacks here. half the hardpoints are turrets, i dont think theyll care about arcs as much.

and my strategey would be to line my huge ships in a corner, do minimum movement, and simply play them as a fortress. it seems like bs and I dont think its balanced, but ive been moving some ships around on a board to test it and the small ships have lost in every test ive done. but we'll see this week, and itll be fun regardless. 

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Yeah, they're turrets. But where the turret is located makes a big difference. Did you put it on the fore or the aft? Is it one with long range but a minimum range of 2, or one with a maximum range of 2. Can a turret in the front fire at something in the rear arc? We don't really know yet. But we do know most of the Hardpoint turrets can only fire in one direction. And rotating the turret is an opportunity cost. And while it's uncertain yet, it looks like most hardpoints only allow for one Bonus Attack per round. Since the GR-75, as an example, only does 2 damage with it's primary attack this would suggest that unless using PDB with enemies who are within range 2, you're only throwing a combined 4 to 6 dice in two attacks. Depending on range and what you're shooting at, that's very survivable. Especially since the Ion Battery is only going to be doing one crit damage regardless of how many hits you get. Most of the hardpoints also can't shoot at anything closer then range 2.

The rules for Huge ships seems to do a good job representing the fact that starfighters are the single biggest threat to a capital ship in Star Wars. Starfighters can get in close, stay in close, and avoid most of the return fire. Thus why capital ships in Star Wars need their own fighters to act as a defensive screen.

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4 hours ago, Faerie1979 said:

The rules for Huge ships seems to do a good job representing the fact that starfighters are the single biggest threat to a capital ship in Star Wars. Starfighters can get in close, stay in close, and avoid most of the return fire. Thus why capital ships in Star Wars need their own fighters to act as a defensive screen.

This.

We proxied an Epic game last night, if Vessery wasn't the only ship I had left, he could have possibly solo'd my boys CR-90, once it was into crits.

Worth noting that as huge ships move last, they have perfect info on where to rotate to deal with standard ships. It looks from the images in the RR that front/rear turrets can rotate and shoot 360, which will also help.

My feeling is that, in a 200pt game, low health squads might struggle to deal with huge ships but a beefy list could win the damage race. Particularly if combined with good defence.

Going to ramming speed on small ships might not seem a fantastic tactic but it is brutal. He took care of a pesky, threatening Inq by going 5 straight into it. 5 crits for that Inq.... I might be wrong, given we had to proxy movement, but the fishtail effect on turns is even more pronounced now, so if you have managed to get behind it, beware the 3 bank- that's an instantly dead Soontir.

 

Long story short, I don't see huge ships causing major problems for standard 200pt lists, but they do have tools to put up a good fight. It might even be balanced 😮

 

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8 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

they wont be outnumbered against aces (3huge vs 2 or 3 small aces) and against swarms its only  at max a 3 vs 8, but the 8 will lose a ship turn 1, a second turn 2, and then get literally run over turn 3.  weve already played this game for 5 years, the rules havent changed enough to make 3 tie/ins worth an epic gunboat

Are you sure you lose a ship on Turn 1?  3 Huge ships most likely means 3 GR-75 with standard range and 2 red dice.  I don't see them destroying a ship a turn.   I do see you getting into hull of one GR-75 in the first volley of firing.  

I also disagree on one Huge compared to 3 Tie Interceptors.  As I said, it depends on the ship.  I think 3 Interceptors could take out a standard GR-75 with no upgrades.   

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