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Vontoothskie

Do huge ships seem massively undercosted?

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19 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Note, however, that I don't think these huge goofs belong on a 3 by 3. No way in **** that's enough space 

Disagree, actually. 45° turns, and especially 0-turns seems like it'll let them get around pretty well even in a limited amount of space. I'm hoping to use them in casual 200-pt games for a while.

Not that I've had a chance to use them yet, of course.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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7 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Disagree, actually. 45° turns, and especially 0-turns seems like it'll let them get around pretty well even in a limited amount of space. I'm hoping to use them in casual 200-pt games for a while.

Not that I've had a chance to use them yet, of course.

In 1.0 HOTAC, I've flown the Rebel Transport in a few missions, and made an AI for an imperial raider. With 30 degree speed 1 turns, worst case it needed to see a corner 3 range bands away and react to turn 150 degrees before going off the board, but it could be done. With 45 degree 0 turns, piece of cake.

Edited by Rakaydos

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

More worried about room for everyone else

Esp at one huge per side on a 3 by 3

Well yeah. 1 or 2 are tough to fit with other stuff, and you could conceivably fit 3.

You could house rule a max of 1 per side. That would make it work better probably.

But we can really never know till we try...

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With 3x3, it's not so much that they can't move about well enough, its more that their tactical choices are simply turn into the scrum on round 2 or 3 or don't. It lacks nuance. But it is still fun.

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20 hours ago, Dr Moneypants said:

Where did FFG say this? That seems pretty weird to me. Also this is the first I've heard of that.

it was in the annoncement article and mentioned in an interview.

And to the people saying you can just tell your opponent not to play huge ships in 100/6 (or whatever the kids call it now. 200/6?), that certainly would be ideal.  all games begin with an agreement between players as what theyre gonna play.

but in 20 years of mini gaming I have run into many problems with the "please dont play your list" request.  Your friends at your house, sure! a game group your really tight with? sure.   but randos at an FLGS? Ive never had much luck with that type of request.  the type of person who plays the NPE list will play the worst thing theyre technically allowed to play, as we clearly saw in 1.0s twilight.  I asked a guy no to play harpoon gunboats and his response was "no", and when i declined to play in response he gloated about it.   thats the kind of thing I dont feel like dealing with at casual game nights, so FFG saying people can use them in 200 points is a bum out.

like we have always had homebrew, they didnt need to specifically state theyre legal in non tourney games

Edited by Vontoothskie

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4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

it was in the annoncement article and mentioned in an interview.

And to the people saying you can just tell your opponent not to play huge ships in 100/6 (or whatever the kids call it now. 200/6?), that certainly would be ideal.  all games begin with an agreement between players as what theyre gonna play.

but in 20 years of mini gaming I have run into many problems with the "please dont play your list" request.  Your friends at your house, sure! a game group your really tight with? sure.   but randos at an FLGS? Ive never had much luck with that type of request.  the type of person who plays the NPE list will play the worst thing theyre technically allowed to play, as we clearly saw in 1.0s twilight.  I asked a guy no to play harpoon gunboats and his response was "no", and when i declined to play in response he gloated about it.   thats the kind of thing I dont feel like dealing with at casual game nights, so FFG saying people can use them in 200 points is a bum out.

like we have always had homebrew, they didnt need to specifically state theyre legal in non tourney games

I'm just glad to say we don't have that issue in our community. And from most of the folks I've met in this community this really shouldn't be a problem.

And frankly if someone brought one of those to the table my response would simply be, "Look man, I don't know how those thing work, how their damage works and I'm just not playing against that"

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19 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

There was a prevous Epic stream where they said any red token would be canceled by energy, not just stress. Looks like that's been changed.

If they'd left it that way, it'd be impossible to fire torpedoes at a large ship - target locks are red tokens.

 

My other point would be that if Huge ships are allowed in a game, logically Wings are as well - which is a huge deal for expensive-but-fragile aces who can have a pair of expendable TIE/ln to such torpedo and turbolaser fire for them.

I am kind of surprised the GR-75 has both a hardpoint and turret slot by default, though. Not just 'for the price' but 'in general'.

 

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7 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

it was in the annoncement article and mentioned in an interview.

And to the people saying you can just tell your opponent not to play huge ships in 100/6 (or whatever the kids call it now. 200/6?), that certainly would be ideal.  all games begin with an agreement between players as what theyre gonna play.

but in 20 years of mini gaming I have run into many problems with the "please dont play your list" request.  Your friends at your house, sure! a game group your really tight with? sure.   but randos at an FLGS? Ive never had much luck with that type of request.  the type of person who plays the NPE list will play the worst thing theyre technically allowed to play, as we clearly saw in 1.0s twilight.  I asked a guy no to play harpoon gunboats and his response was "no", and when i declined to play in response he gloated about it.   thats the kind of thing I dont feel like dealing with at casual game nights, so FFG saying people can use them in 200 points is a bum out.

like we have always had homebrew, they didnt need to specifically state theyre legal in non tourney games

I don't expect it to be an issue. Most FLGS games are in tournament format even though they aren't as competitive. How much do you have to deal with people wanting to use a Quick Build list, or wanting to play with 250 points? I don't think this will be much more common. It's known and expected that huge ship lists are "alternative format" the same way Quick Build lists and different point caps are. In other words, if they bring it it's up to them to find someone who wants to play against it.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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I'll admit, while I have a Tantive IV preordered, I don't think I'll be able to field it very often. I'm mostly buying it because dayam, that ship looks sweet. I also have 2nd edition Epic preordered. Again, I don't expect I'll be able to play many Epic format matches. But it sounds pretty nifty. That said, for casual games the Huge ships sound like they're priced around the same point as Large ships like the Modified YT-1300. Which means they could see some decent use outside of competitions. While the huge ships sound like they're (justifiably) powerful, they don't sound like they're unstoppable monsters on the battle field. Not to mention could easily be prone to being swarmed.

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The new 200-pt ace:

The Gozanti comes out blazing for a few rounds, firing off any number of 3-4 dice attacks, whatever it can afford energy-wise, with 2 Focus and a calculate most of the time. Point-defense Blood Crow with Perceptive Copilot gives you lots and lots of free hits against close-range enemies.

Then whenever your Gozanti goes down or you've cut the opponent's list to a managable size, you deploy Vader. If he doesn't need Supernatural for Pre-move reposition, you can coordinate him a barrel roll at I7. Otherwise just keep firing away while Vader cleans up.

Outer Rim Garrison (60)    
    Point-Defense Battery (10)    
    Perceptive Copilot (8)    
    Damage Control Team (3)    
    Tibanna Reserves (3)    
    Blood Crow (5)    
    
Darth Vader (67)    
    Supernatural Reflexes (32)    
    Fire-Control System (2)    
    Afterburners (6)    
    
Total: 196    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZeZ200Z373XW272WW54WW277WW285W301Y173X74W113WW105W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

I'm... pretty eager to try this. Actually doesn't seem too busted since the Gozanti's pretty vulnerable, but I feel like it could hit pretty hard...

The huge ships just seem like so much fun, regardless of viability. Definitely more viable than the VCX or 2400, but not too OP IMO.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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9 hours ago, Faerie1979 said:

I'll admit, while I have a Tantive IV preordered, I don't think I'll be able to field it very often. I'm mostly buying it because dayam, that ship looks sweet. I also have 2nd edition Epic preordered. Again, I don't expect I'll be able to play many Epic format matches. But it sounds pretty nifty. That said, for casual games the Huge ships sound like they're priced around the same point as Large ships like the Modified YT-1300. Which means they could see some decent use outside of competitions. While the huge ships sound like they're (justifiably) powerful, they don't sound like they're unstoppable monsters on the battle field. Not to mention could easily be prone to being swarmed.

Im guessing you didnt play epic 1.0.

A huge ship can ussually kill 1 to 2 ships per a round on its own, and they only really go down to concentrated fire from several ships.  theyre stats are nearly identical in 2.0, but now they cost about a half what they used to.  comparison to a yt-1300 doesnt make much sense cause a yt cant throw 4  or 5 hardpoint attacks per a turn while regening

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6 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

A huge ship can ussually kill 1 to 2 ships per a round on its own, and they only really go down to concentrated fire from several ships.

Citation needed...

Agree they’re hard to destroy, but they never really hit that hard. Maybe they do now, but I mean the Raider stacked out that well will cost a full 200 anyway.

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On 11/2/2019 at 5:22 PM, ScummyRebel said:

That lack of maneuverability is a big deal. Also, nobody is going to fly all huge ship cheese. It’s expensive for one, and for two it would be cut down by more evasive ships.

Theres tons of anti huge ship tech. HLC, torpedos, etc. won’t be hard to put real hurt on them. Also, looks like their Crits are real bad.

Ahh. i was looking for a good challenge... 

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Looking at the costs, if you're in a 200 point game and using a Huge ship that is probably your only ship if you put any upgrades on it. And while no, I didn't play 1.0, I have played other miniature games where massively powerful units got added to what is normally small skirmishes. In Mage Knight for example I have both the Red Dragon and the Black Powder Rebels Steam Tank. I've used both in various matches. And while they were powerful, they were not capable of winning without any supporting units to draw enemy fire. I don't see that being any different with the Huge ships here. I've played 1000 point matches in Warhammer 40k where my opponent brought a tank, and that initially panicked me since at the time I mainly had one Rhino transport, one land speeder, and the rest being various infantry squads. But that tank was the bulk of his force. So when I took that tank down with my Devastator Squad (I run space marines) it ended up ruining his day.

The CR-90 for example has 7 shields and regens 2 shields per turn. Yeah, that could be extremely sturdy. But without a fighter screen to pull enemy fire away from your ship, it's probably not particularly difficult to chew through those shields. Especially since the ship has 0 agility, so must rely on range and space debris to get defense dice. It also looks like Huge ships can only do multiple attacks in a single turn if they still have functioning hard points. If you're flying a "naked" or lightly upgraded Huge ship due to it being a 200 point game you may well not have that many hardpoint weapons. Also, if you keep hitting the Huge ship with things like Ion Canons/Turrets or forcing it to accept stress then it'll be even less likely to be firing multiple times. Speaking of which, it's energy regen is 2 per turn, meaning if the player is firing 3 or 4 bonus attacks every turn then they will run out of energy fast, and be left vulnerable.

The imperial Huge ship that was featured in one of the FFG Livestreams looks to be even less durable then the CR-90 due to having 3 shields and 1 shield regen.

Mind you, I could be wrong about how things will play out. But I don't see them being the unstoppable badasses people are worrying about. And at around 150 points for one Huge ship without any upgrades, it's probably not as big of a concern. A Huge ship with every upgrade slot filled would be very dangerous, true. But they also wont have as much support to protect them. In a 500 point game, which seems to be the standard for Epic format, you're probably best off with one Huge ship that's decently upgraded, one or two Wings, and maybe a couple aces. I mean, I love my YT-1300, and it can be devastating when things go well. But I've also seen it go down in a couple turns as well.

EDIT:

20 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Citation needed...

Agree they’re hard to destroy, but they never really hit that hard. Maybe they do now, but I mean the Raider stacked out that well will cost a full 200 anyway.

It looks like the rebel CR-90 has two primary side arcs with 4 dice of damage. Unless you put a turret in the hard points, that's it. And the firing arcs are in the center of the sides, without covering the entire side. It's biggest advantage is the high shields and recurring shields/energy. That, and it's ability to target lock and fire at Range 1-4. A naked CR-90 has no bonus attacks available, so is making one attack per turn.

Ion Cannon Battery looks like it'll deal 1 crit (assuming you manage to get any hits through) and 1 to 4 Ion tokens, at a range of 2-4. Meaning if you are either close enough they can shoot at you without you getting any defense dice, or they get 1 or 2 extra defense dice (more if there's something in the way). Each shot costs one energy.

Targeting Battery is a 3 die attack at range 2-5, so again there's an increased chance of enemy ships being able to negate your attack. But it lets you get a target lock, and only costs 1 energy per bonus attack.

Point Defense Battery costs 1 per shot, but the way it's listed makes me think you can only do one bonus attack with a given hard point for each time it says "bonus attack (cost)". After all, this range 1-2 weapon does 2 damage and lists 4 bonus attacks. Other then it's ability to spam attacks, this doesn't seem too dangerous to me. Could be wrong though.  Then again, if anyone is getting that close they're going to be chewing through the CR-90's shields and hull quickly.

Turbolaser Battery looks to be the most dangerous Huge ship hardpoint upgrade. Costs 3 energy to attack with it, and has a range of 3-5. So your opponent is going to get at least 1 or 2 extra defense dice. It has 3 die attack rating. But if it does hit, it adds an extra 3 normal hits to the result. Ouch. But as I'd already mentioned with only 2 energy regen per turn, you can't spam bonus attacks very often. ****, even firing the Turbolaser Battery every turn is going to chew through energy faster then you're recovering it.

 

I can see running Turbolaser Battery with Point Defense Battery as an "oh crud" backup. Actually, you probably want Point Defense Battery as a backup regardless of what other hardpoint you take. But beyond massive attack spam (which looks only possible at range 1-2) it doesn't seem like it'll hit particularly harder then any other ship. And even "massive attack spam" is only 2 dice per attack.

Edited by Faerie1979

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1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

Im guessing you didnt play epic 1.0.

A huge ship can ussually kill 1 to 2 ships per a round on its own

Were we playing the same Epic 1.0? Because the only time I remember consistently killing a normal ship every round was after I'd invested almost all of my list into a Superlaser Corvette.

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19 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Were we playing the same Epic 1.0? Because the only time I remember consistently killing a normal ship every round was after I'd invested almost all of my list into a Superlaser Corvette.

dude the Raider could potentially throw 24 red dice a turn!

in 1.0 the huge ships were a little too costly, but even a humble Gozanti could equip chunk weaker ships. with the right loadout. obviosly gr75 werent slaughterboats but yeah man, the only thing holding huge ships back in 1.0 was that they were expensive. now theyre buffed AND less than half the cost

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As I understand it, in 1.0 Huge ships were capable of banking Energy up, then spending it to do things like quickly restore all their shields. This would, as I understand it, make them much harder to take out since at any given moment the player might undo all your hard work chipping away at the ship's shields. 2.0 Huge ships can't do that. They have a static amount of shields they recover per turn. Which yeah, that'll make them fairly tanky. But considering how often I see my opponents blowing through 4 to 5 points of shields in one turn, I really don't think Huge ships are going to be anywhere near as tanky as in 1st edition.

2 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

1 thing that i forgot before, the reveal seems to be showing the huge ships having initiative 8... which maybe thats a typo? guess we'll find out in a few days

Initiative 8, for moving. But not for combat. The CR-90's Engagement init is 0, for example. So it moves last and shoots last.

 

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I have already punted the idea that I would maybe not mind flying a Raider in a standard game to our group......

(150) Outer Rim Patrol [Raider-class Corvette]
(3) Tibanna Reserves
(10) Point Defense Battery
(3) Damage Control Team
(3) Corvus
Points: 169

(30) "Wampa" [TIE/ln Fighter]
Points: 30

Total points: 199

 

1.0, the old missile Raider, with Jonas hovering nearby, would fire- 4 die primary x2-Homing Missiles-Cluster Missile-ProTorps. That proved quite capable of squashing 1 or 2 small ships a turn. At least.

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Oh wow, that looks... Well, depending on where the turret hard point is, it looks like it could have some serious problems if enemy ships manage to get behind it. Not sure if a single tie fighter could provide a good enough screen to prevent that. Sounds like your list would rely on taking out targets as they approach and hoping the Point Defense Battery is good enough to protect the more vulnerable part of the ship.

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2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Were we playing the same Epic 1.0? Because the only time I remember consistently killing a normal ship every round was after I'd invested almost all of my list into a Superlaser Corvette.

@Vontoothskie definitely wasn't playing the same 1st edition Epic.  The only way Epic ships were taking down more than one regular ship a turn is if they were flying right into them.

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Just based on the numbers, my first impression is that in a 200 point game a fully loaded Huge ship is probably no worse then trying to joust against 3 or 4 ships. Of course you're ship is going to be chewed up if you're careless. With good positioning and paying attention to firing arcs, the Huge ship should only be getting one or two shots off most times, at most. And many hardpoints will likely give you extra defense dice to help mitigate the attack. And if they're unleashing a full Point Defense barrage on you, yeah that's likely to be dangerous. But that's no more dangerous then having 4 Tie/LN Fighters all shooting at you. Or in other words dangerous, but not always certain doom. Then again, if you're in that position it was possibly your fault to begin with :)

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I dont think that Raider and Wampa would actually be good in standard format :D

You'd stay clear of the front 180 forever and range control/arc spread the Point Defence.

Only 2 of the 4 PD shots would even be modified.

Would depend on Wampa bossing the endgame 🤣

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