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Vontoothskie

Do huge ships seem massively undercosted?

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so some rudimentary exploration of points reveals a couple glaring issues:

-3 Gr75 gunboats with hardpoints fit in a 200 point list: thats 45 regening hp, 2 seperate attacks, entirety of 3'x3' board in range turn 1 (one attack at 20 inches from the front of an 8 inch long ship).  compare to 3 Vcx100s which dont fit at 200 points and are worse in every category save maneuverability

-an Imp Assault carrier with ion cannon battery and tibanna reserves cost the same (69 points) as a Defender generic

-naked bossk in Yv666 is 64 points... the same as a CROC with Ion cannon battery. these 2 even have similar stats and dials, but the CROC regens, gets a bonus 4 dice ion attack, better actions, is tougher, harder to ionize or control, etc.

-2 ion cannon scyks cost more than an ion battery CROC... utterly mindblowing

anyone else seeing some problems here?  It honestly looks like the point pricing either wasnt tested or was purposefully set low to encourage customers to buy and fly multiple Huge expansions instead of anything else

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That lack of maneuverability is a big deal. Also, nobody is going to fly all huge ship cheese. It’s expensive for one, and for two it would be cut down by more evasive ships.

Theres tons of anti huge ship tech. HLC, torpedos, etc. won’t be hard to put real hurt on them. Also, looks like their Crits are real bad.

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Yeah, it doesn't really concern me. Huge ships mostly need to be balanced with each other. If somebody wants to bring multiple C-ROC's instead of YV-666, more power to them. I don't feel the need to power game like that in a casual game mode, and I suspect most people feel the same.

If it becomes a problem, FFG can a) restrict the number of huge ships, or b) change the points. Isn't Second Edition wonderful?

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in my experience with game nights outside my house, every FLGS has at least 1 power gamer. and since FFG announced these ships are legal in the 200 point game I fully expect to run into them.   thats more my concern.

most X-wing players will never attend a tournament so the main version of the game (200 point standard) is what needs to be balanced. really

14 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Theres tons of anti huge ship tech. HLC, torpedos, etc. won’t be hard to put real hurt on them. Also, looks like their Crits are real bad.

also at present huge ships cost less than their counters by a HUGE margin. the 4 torp platforms you want to sink 1 huge ship cost more than 2 hige ships, so why even take the counters?  multiple range 5 attacks mean some of those "counters" will be dead before they get a shot

Edited by Vontoothskie

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Eh

First thing: casual game mode. Can just limit # of huge ships via gentleman's agreement

Second thing: huge ships seem undercosted, but they're not INVINCIBLE

A Decimator already has more health than a gr-75 and has a better primary weapon. This means the gr-75 isn't THAT much more difficult to take out.

So, if they want to show up on the EPIC table without their fat asses being obliterated, they kinda need to leave room for stuff to protect them.

 

 

Note, however, that I don't think these huge goofs belong on a 3 by 3. No way in **** that's enough space 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

in my experience with game nights outside my house, every FLGS has at least 1 power gamer. and since FFG announced these ships are legal in the 200 point game I fully expect to run into them.   thats more my concern.

Declare your game store to be extended format then. Huge ships are NOT extended legal. Problem solved.

Again, still maintain they’re not as good as you think they are, but I could be wrong after playing with them in a non-spam way.

Edited by ScummyRebel

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New releases looking undercosted? Seems familiar!

However, I'm glad to see them looking worth using - 1st ed (eventually) needed to make them mandatory because they were rubbish due to points costs.

I look forward to using my huge ships as much as possible. In January, FFG might revise their points so there's only 2 months to see if they're over- or undercosted.

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FFG has already laid out guidelines they feel should be used for epic events that will limit the number of huge ships people use.

• Each squadron must include at least 1 huge ship or wing.

• Each squadron can spend a maximum of half its available squad points (or threat, rounded up, on huge ships and their equipped upgrades (e.g. if the squad limit is 500 points, or 20 threat up to 250 points or 10 threat can be spent on huge ships and their upgrades).

You can still get quite a few, but you can't have a full list of huge ships.

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56 minutes ago, Dr Moneypants said:

Where did FFG say this? That seems pretty weird to me. Also this is the first I've heard of that.

They mentioned being able to play the huge ships in 200 *casual/epic* games. They’re not going to be legal in an extended/hyperspace tournament.  I think that’s where some of the panic is coming from.

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21 minutes ago, Phelan Boots said:

They mentioned being able to play the huge ships in 200 *casual/epic* games. They’re not going to be legal in an extended/hyperspace tournament.  I think that’s where some of the panic is coming from.

Ohhh! I have a solution for this

"Hey you mind if I play this giant ship in this casual game?"

"Nah, can we just play a regular match?"

"Sure! I have other stuff"

(Why do I feel like I just wrote an '80s anti-drug PSA?)

Edited by Dr Moneypants

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Every example listed has ion cannons as their weapons, and assuming ions work the same way in epic as they do Everywhere else, then that is a glaring weakness. 1 damage cap per attack is a huge drawback in a 400 point game, especially for a 60+ point ship. 

Also these are only legal in epic format, so they should be priced to move. Why have them suck when they can only be played in non-competitive formats?

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25 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Every example listed has ion cannons as their weapons, and assuming ions work the same way in epic as they do Everywhere else, then that is a glaring weakness. 1 damage cap per attack is a huge drawback in a 400 point game, especially for a 60+ point ship. 

Also these are only legal in epic format, so they should be priced to move. Why have them suck when they can only be played in non-competitive formats?

The hard point based Ions do 1 crit and ions remove energy from huge ships (well, all negative effects do like stress). Its a solid strategy to make an enemy huge ship waste energy as fast as possible since recovering energy isn't quick and most heavy weapons require energy to use or repair.

It's a strategy I plan on using next weekend: my CR90 will ion bombard from beyond range 3 while a couple of ion equipped B-Wings slip into any primary weapon blind spots and either use blasters or proton/plasma torpedoes to strip the shields quickly. Will this work? NO idea but I do know itll be fun!

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15 hours ago, FriendofYoda said:

If anything becomes a problem, it won’t be a problem for long.

Yes, I have slowly come to realize that adjustable points is the best thing that ever happened to XWM.

I still with they would do something like E-cards alongside of PDFs, though.

17 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

anyone else seeing some problems here? 

It honestly looks like the point pricing either wasnt tested or was purposefully set low to encourage customers to buy and fly multiple Huge expansions instead of anything else

Well, no problems yet, since the stuff isn't on tables.

As for the last part, bless FFG's heart.  They want people USING their huge ships, and making them more accessible in listbuilding as well as play options is a good move.

Huge ships have a lot of "bah humbug" to shed for some of the player base.  Letting them kick *** for awhile will get people excited to play them, and more importantly help get the rest of us another huge ship made!!  If Epic 2.0 arrives with a whimper, it's gonna die out again.

16 hours ago, IridiumR6 said:

 Since they are not Hyperspace or Extended they aren't going to be showing up on tournament night.

THIS is the part that bothers me.  Where are they going to be getting the official feedback for good rebalancing?

14 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Note, however, that I don't think these huge goofs belong on a 3 by 3. No way in **** that's enough space 

Agreed.  And I wonder if that is going to be the rate-limited-step for use in FLGSs with a premium on table-top real estate.

But the overall effect of playing on 6x3 is significant no matter what you are doing.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Unidentified transports, please heave to for boarding...

Quote

Echo Base Evacuees (55)    
    Ion Cannon Battery (6)    
    Bombardment Specialists (6)    
    
Ship total: 67  Half Points: 34  Threshold: 8    
    
Echo Base Evacuees (55)    
    Ion Cannon Battery (6)    
    Bombardment Specialists (6)    
    
Ship total: 67  Half Points: 34  Threshold: 8    
    
Echo Base Evacuees (55)    
    Ion Cannon Battery (6)    
    Ion Cannon Turret (5)    
    
Ship total: 66  Half Points: 33  Threshold: 8    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZeZ200Z371XW269WWWW275WWWY371XW269WWWW275WWWY371XW269W138WWWWWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

vs

Quote

Lieutenant Sai (47)    
    Grand Moff Tarkin (6)    
    Director Krennic (4)    
    Hull Upgrade (3)    
    ST-321 (4)    
    
Ship total: 64  Half Points: 32  Threshold: 6    
    
Patrol Leader (68)    
Ship total: 68  Half Points: 34  Threshold: 8    
    
Patrol Leader (68)    
Ship total: 68  Half Points: 34  Threshold: 8    
    
    
Total: 200    

 


    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZeZ500Z166XWW34W28W164W162WY216XWWWWWWWWY216XWWWWWWWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

 

Rebels: 15 x3 regenerating health, 1 critical damage per turn anywhere on the map per ship, plus a 2 die attack.

Imperials: 16+16+11 health, 2 fully modified 3 die attacks (ok, one of them is "only" a focus to shield strip of damage card flip, but that's plenty bad) every turn, with the free actions to throw in a reinforce every other turn. Additional 3 die attack with focus.

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2 hours ago, Tvboy said:

1. Every example listed has ion cannons as their weapons, and assuming ions work the same way in epic as they do Everywhere else, then that is a glaring weakness. 1 damage cap per attack is a huge drawback in a 400 point game, especially for a 60+ point ship. 

2. Also these are only legal in epic format, so they should be priced to move. Why have them suck when they can only be played in non-competitive formats?

1. The Ion Cannon Battery is a 1.0 style Ion weapon. If the attack hits the target takes a crit and all rolled hit/crit results inflict Ion tokens. While it still is 1 damage per round from that weapon, all Huge ships also have a primary and the GR-75 does have a turret slot in addition to the hardpoint (among other slots).

swz55_ion-cannon-battery_card.png

2. Kinda. Swap "epic format" for "casual games of any format" (Epic is a casual format and there are no rules blocking Huge ships out of 200 v 200 standard format casual games) and you're dead on with this part.

2 hours ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

The hard point based Ions do 1 crit and ions remove energy from huge ships (well, all negative effects do like stress). Its a solid strategy to make an enemy huge ship waste energy as fast as possible since recovering energy isn't quick and most heavy weapons require energy to use or repair.

Nope. Ion tokens don't work that way on huge ships. New Rules Reference update has been up since last Monday. Huge ship stuff is covered in its own appendix starting on page 30:

 https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/95/bc/95bc5437-ca09-4991-bc3c-9cec5e04db90/swzrulesreference_v106-compressed.pdf

From Ion on page 30: "ION A huge ship is ionized while it has six or more ion tokens. Otherwise, an ionized huge ship behaves in the same manner as an ionized standard ship (see Ion)." So no actions other than Focus can be taken while Ionized, does a 1 straight blue ion maneuver for the activation of the round after becoming ionized.

Tractor is similar (page 32): "TRACTOR A huge ship is tractored while it has six or more tractor tokens. After a huge ship becomes tractored, it is not moved as a standard ship would be.
Otherwise, a huge ship interacts with tractor tokens in the same manner as a standard ship (see Tractor). " So -1 green die while tractored.

Edited by Hiemfire

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3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

1. The Ion Cannon Battery is a 1.0 style Ion weapon. If the attack hits the target takes a crit and all rolled hit/crit results inflict Ion tokens. While it still is 1 damage per round from that weapon, all Huge ships also have a primary and the GR-75 does have a turret slot in addition to the hardpoint (among other slots).

swz55_ion-cannon-battery_card.png

2. Kinda. Swap "epic format" for "casual games of any format" (Epic is a casual format and there are no rules blocking Huge ships out of 200 v 200 standard format casual games) and you're dead on with this part.

Nope. Ion tokens don't work that way on huge ships. New Rules Reference update has been up since last Monday. Huge ship stuff is covered in its own appendix starting on page 30:

 https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/95/bc/95bc5437-ca09-4991-bc3c-9cec5e04db90/swzrulesreference_v106-compressed.pdf

From Ion on page 30: "ION A huge ship is ionized while it has six or more ion tokens. Otherwise, an ionized huge ship behaves in the same manner as an ionized standard ship (see Ion)." So no actions other than Focus can be taken while Ionized, does a 1 straight blue ion maneuver for the activation of the round after becoming ionized.

Tractor is similar (page 32): "TRACTOR A huge ship is tractored while it has six or more tractor tokens. After a huge ship becomes tractored, it is not moved as a standard ship would be.
Otherwise, a huge ship interacts with tractor tokens in the same manner as a standard ship (see Tractor). " So -1 green die while tractored.

Yup, absolutely correct. I have no idea where I pulled my information from, but I'm going to go stick my head in the microwave for a few seconds until I've purged it of all 1.0 info so I stop crossing my wires here.

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3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Nope. Ion tokens don't work that way on huge ships. New Rules Reference update has been up since last Monday. Huge ship stuff is covered in its own appendix starting on page 30:

 https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/95/bc/95bc5437-ca09-4991-bc3c-9cec5e04db90/swzrulesreference_v106-compressed.pdf

From Ion on page 30: "ION A huge ship is ionized while it has six or more ion tokens. Otherwise, an ionized huge ship behaves in the same manner as an ionized standard ship (see Ion)." So no actions other than Focus can be taken while Ionized, does a 1 straight blue ion maneuver for the activation of the round after becoming ionized.

Tractor is similar (page 32): "TRACTOR A huge ship is tractored while it has six or more tractor tokens. After a huge ship becomes tractored, it is not moved as a standard ship would be.
Otherwise, a huge ship interacts with tractor tokens in the same manner as a standard ship (see Tractor). " So -1 green die while tractored.

There was a prevous Epic stream where they said any red token would be canceled by energy, not just stress. Looks like that's been changed.

 

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