Rex: Hunter or Overwatch?

[Zrob314 833]

What are your thoughts?

Hunter: Obvi, right?  If you stack your standby tokens right he can generate a LOT of aim tokens in a round and they don't go away after he's done shooting.  But he's an attractive target for focus firing from distance.  

Overwatch: Makes him more mobile and hopefully more survivable.  It would mostly be used for reaction moves.  Especially to stay out of melee.  Also potentially make quick exits with boxes.   Offensively he could use it to punish your opponent's front line when their mid line starts doing stuff.     

 

I'm having trouble figuring out which is better.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Zrob314

[Alpha17 2,853]

Personally, I'm thinking hunter of the two, but I haven't played Rex yet, so I don't know if that will stick.  I see what you're trying to do with overwatch, but I feel like the Clone standby shenanigans are a lot like fire support in that they can become a bit of a trap.  It's awesome when used correctly, but just because it's a great tool doesn't mean it is always the best option.

[Cleto0 219]

Rex? offensive push or you are wasting the spot

[Smashotron 414]

I've proxied Rex twice so far, and of those two upgrades I'd say Hunter. But for really good token generation, I think Offensive Push is the right call. By tapping Push, you can have two Aim tokens ready for your Clones before Turn 1 when he performs his Scout move. Later, he can use his 3-pip that let's him recover for free when you really need two more Aim tokens.

[Zrob314 833]

7 hours ago, Smashotron said:

By tapping Push, you can have two Aim tokens ready for your Clones before Turn 1 when he performs his Scout move. Later, he can use his 3-pip that let's him recover for free when you really need two more Aim tokens.

Meh.  Two aim tokens in round one is not as useful for my build as you might think.  I think forcing the recover on him outweighs it's potential benefit, even with being given a free recover on a round.  

 

9 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

but I feel like the Clone standby shenanigans are a lot like fire support in that they can become a bit of a trap.

If you're doing it right the trap is for your opponent.  

[Zrob314 833]

On 10/31/2019 at 9:21 AM, Cleto0 said:

Rex? offensive push or you are wasting the spot

I've generated 6 5 aim tokens in the middle of my opponent's activation using hunter on rex.  I'm unconvinced that OP is the better choice in general (and my win record with my list backs it up)

Edited November 6, 2019 by Zrob314

[Alpha17 2,853]

14 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

Meh.  Two aim tokens in round one is not as useful for my build as you might think.  I think forcing the recover on him outweighs it's potential benefit, even with being given a free recover on a round.  

 

If you're doing it right the trap is for your opponent.  

Exactly, if you do it right it is great, but if you do it wrong, you'll end up knocked out an trapped under a walkway while your friend listens to some creepy politician say "Dewit."  Is it really worth the risk? 

[DarthDanMan 3]

Question. Do you gain the aim when shooting a corp unit that is missing a unit, or only when shooting a mini that has a wound?

Edited November 1, 2019 by DarthDanMan
Typo

[Lochlan 1,034]

13 minutes ago, DarthDanMan said:

Question. Do you gain the aim when shooting a corp unit that is missing a unit, or only when shooting a mini that has a wound?

Only when shooting a mini that has a wound. 

[smickletz 200]

15 minutes ago, DarthDanMan said:

Question. Do you gain the aim when shooting a corp unit that is missing a unit, or only when shooting a mini that has a wound?

I was thinking this same thing. It should only be when shooting a wounded mini, not units missing 1 health minis.

[arnoldrew 1,712]

58 minutes ago, smickletz said:

I was thinking this same thing. It should only be when shooting a wounded mini, not units missing 1 health minis.

It doesn't even trigger when shooting a unit missing a multi-health mini. There has to be a wound token on the unit.

[Cleto0 219]

On 10/31/2019 at 5:59 PM, Zrob314 said:

I've generated 6 aim tokens in the middle of my opponent's activation using hunter on rex.  I'm unconvinced that OP is the better choice in general (and my win record with my list backs it up)

1. never rely on personal experience, it looks bad

2. Consistent tokens with a coherent idea is good

3. range 2 rex. 6 units in range of rex. I am laughing

 

[arnoldrew 1,712]

10 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

3. range 2 rex. 6 units in range of rex. I am laughing

You know he can just keep shooting at the same 2 targets, right?

[Alpha17 2,853]

11 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

1. never rely on personal experience, it looks bad

I have to completely and totally disagree with you there.  Ignoring your own personal experience in favor of the internet hive mind is never a good idea, no matter how bad it looks.  If someone has had good experience with a bad unit, they should stick with that unit, regardless of what others think.  It clearly works for them.  We don't, and shouldn't, have the same opinions on everything.  Even using math or rational reasons to back up your preference is a value judgement, as you are using statistics or probabilities to back up your decisions rather than experience. 

Case in point, I'm a long time user of E-Webs, even when the consensus was they sucked.  I love my space Maxims, and have used them quite successfully.  I have repeatedly argued that they are good, you just have to use them correctly, and used my own experience to justify my opinions.  Suddenly, in the last month or so, E-Webs are being reevaluated by the Podcasts and community, and may be gaining more acceptance.  Does that mean they sucked and suddenly got better?  No.  It just means the community hadn't figured out how to use them.  Medics are another example of this, with the initial reaction being meh, but potential uses changing opinions.

I do get what you're going for, as the "I've won 9983 games with X unit!" people are annoying, and examples like that aren't super helpful for others (not to mention potentially false).  That said, I'll still take "in my games with X, I've done Y" as seriously as I will someone doing the math and deciding that the odds of Y happening are 0.5%, so it can't really happen. 

[Mokoshkana 752]

7 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

You know he can just keep shooting at the same 2 targets, right?

Sure, but this scenario where Rex shoots stuff numerous times is really unlikely to happen. A competent player just plays around it. At Range 2, it really isn't that scary.

[TheHoosh 370]

On 11/1/2019 at 9:03 AM, Lochlan said:

Only when shooting a mini that has a wound. 

I've totally been playing hunter wrong this entire time

[Lochlan 1,034]

28 minutes ago, TheHoosh said:

I've totally been playing hunter wrong this entire time

Yeah, it's not really intuitive that a unit missing models isn't "wounded" (unless it also has a wound token on a model). 

[Zrob314 833]

On 11/4/2019 at 7:23 PM, Cleto0 said:

1. never rely on personal experience, it looks bad

2. Consistent tokens with a coherent idea is good

3. range 2 rex. 6 units in range of rex. I am laughing

 

I've got 3 standby tokens in range 1 of Rex, he moves on his activation generating an aim token from Tactical, also moving within range 2 of Leia and a Tauntaun unit with one wound.  

Neither rebel unit has activated yet.  Rex ends his turn on top of a building, inside rear Arc of the Tauntauns.  Neither unit has heavy cover.  

Opponent pulls Leia.  Does an aim.

Rex pops standby 1: Shoots Tauntaun, generates aim token. Shoots Leia, Leia takes a wound.

(all rolls in this were 2 hit 1 cit, dice were on fire for me that night)

Rex pops standby two: Shoots Tauntaun, generates aim token, kills one with one spillover damage to the leader.  Shoots Leia, generates aim token.

Rex pops standby three.  Shoots tauntaun, generates aim token, kills Tauntaun.  Shoots Leia, generates aim token, kills leia.

Rex now has 6 aim tokens next to him. 

How many Aim tokens is offensive push going to generate in a game?  Probably not 6.  

I can move and shoot in a turn, that gives an aim token.  OP requires a recover to use more than once.  You get a free recover from a command card, but most turns you're not going to be using it.  If I want to generate aim tokens for use by other units then I could also just move and aim.  

Offensive push can generate, at most, 7 aim tokens in a match.  

Hunter can generate more than 6 Aim Tokens in a match if you choose your targets correctly.  

Overwatch can generate.....well it can generate as many aim tokens as you have standby tokens you can spend (provided you move).  

I'm not at all saying that OP isn't useful.  But I can't get behind your logic that it is more useful than either of the two training upgrades I've been talking about.  It also fulfills your requirement of "Consistent tokens with a coherent idea is good."  But hey, your list man.  Do what you like.  

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Zrob314

[Cleto0 219]

12 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

I've got 3 standby tokens in range 1 of Rex, he moves on his activation generating an aim token from Tactical, also moving within range 2 of Leia and a Tauntaun unit with one wound.  

Neither rebel unit has activated yet.  Rex ends his turn on top of a building, inside rear Arc of the Tauntauns.  Neither unit has heavy cover.  

Opponent pulls Leia.  Does an aim.

Rex pops standby 1: Shoots Tauntaun, generates aim token. Shoots Leia, Leia takes a wound.

(all rolls in this were 2 hit 1 cit, dice were on fire for me that night)

Rex pops standby two: Shoots Tauntaun, generates aim token, kills one with one spillover damage to the leader.  Shoots Leia, generates aim token.

Rex pops standby three.  Shoots tauntaun, generates aim token, kills Tauntaun.  Shoots Leia, generates aim token, kills leia.

Rex now has 6 aim tokens next to him. 

How many Aim tokens is offensive push going to generate in a game?  Probably not 6.  

I can move and shoot in a turn, that gives an aim token.  OP requires a recover to use more than once.  You get a free recover from a command card, but most turns you're not going to be using it.  If I want to generate aim tokens for use by other units then I could also just move and aim.  

Offensive push can generate, at most, 7 aim tokens in a match.  

Hunter can generate more than 6 Aim Tokens in a match if you choose your targets correctly.  

Overwatch can generate.....well it can generate as many aim tokens as you have standby tokens you can spend.  

I'm not at all saying that OP isn't useful.  But I can't get behind your logic that it is more useful than either of the two training upgrades I've been talking about.  It also fulfills your requirement of "Consistent tokens with a coherent idea is good."  But hey, your list man.  Do what you like.  

 

Yeah if rex is in range of tauntauns AND leia he is in trouble. I assumed you were playing against a good player which would punish a rex exposed to a whole tauntaun unit with tenacity proc'ed. Leia has a better shot against rex than rex does against leia. Hunter is interesting, but not consistent. If you actually end up taking a move, you gain 2 aim tokens so it makes more sense to take the consistent 2 at ANY range vs aiming for rex at range 2 using 4 unit attacks. have fun with that "tactic" tho

 

[Mokoshkana 752]

20 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Yeah if rex is in range of tauntauns AND leia he is in trouble. I assumed you were playing against a good player which would punish a rex exposed to a whole tauntaun unit with tenacity proc'ed. Leia has a better shot against rex than rex does against leia. Hunter is interesting, but not consistent. If you actually end up taking a move, you gain 2 aim tokens so it makes more sense to take the consistent 2 at ANY range vs aiming for rex at range 2 using 4 unit attacks. have fun with that "tactic" tho

 

Find it incredibly unlikely that a good player would stand by while 3 clone units all do a standby and wait for Rex to crush them. Take Leia aiming first and triggering a Standby. That makes me think that player was either bad or had never played Clones before and didn't bother to ask why the opponent spent three activations generating standby tokens.

Also if Standby works that way is was written above where Rex (or clones) can use multiple standby tokens back to back on one activation, then I would hazard a guess that will probably change in the future. Highly unlikely the intent is for a unit to get multiple attacks in this manner.

[Cleto0 219]

45 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

 

Also if Standby works that way is was written above where Rex (or clones) can use multiple standby tokens back to back on one activation, then I would hazard a guess that will probably change in the future. Highly unlikely the intent is for a unit to get multiple attacks in this manner.

That is actually legal, check the latest rules forum post. I think that is the best way to waste it though  

[Mokoshkana 752]

2 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

That is actually legal, check the latest rules forum post. I think that is the best way to waste it though  

Yep, understand that it is legal RaW at present, but I believe it will get reigned in eventually. I think reducing a unit's ability to use standby tokens to one per action would be best as it doesn't nerf it too much, but removes this nonsense where a single clone unit can do multiple standby attacks. In any case, a good player is not going to fall for it this trick more than once, if at all. Using range or shooting the units with standby tokens can put a stop to this before it starts.

[Cleto0 219]

44 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Yep, understand that it is legal RaW at present, but I believe it will get reigned in eventually. I think reducing a unit's ability to use standby tokens to one per action would be best as it doesn't nerf it too much, but removes this nonsense where a single clone unit can do multiple standby attacks. In any case, a good player is not going to fall for it this trick more than once, if at all. Using range or shooting the units with standby tokens can put a stop to this before it starts.

Not RAW. RAI.

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Cleto0

[Mokoshkana 752]

6 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Not RAW. RAI.

 

Cool. Easy enough to play around.

[Zrob314 833]

16 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

Yeah if rex is in range of tauntauns AND leia he is in trouble. I assumed you were playing against a good player which would punish a rex exposed to a whole tauntaun unit with tenacity proc'ed. Leia has a better shot against rex than rex does against leia. Hunter is interesting, but not consistent. If you actually end up taking a move, you gain 2 aim tokens so it makes more sense to take the consistent 2 at ANY range vs aiming for rex at range 2 using 4 unit attacks. have fun with that "tactic" tho

 

The move I made to put Rex into range was climbing a building.  Rex had a shot on Leia and the tauntaun from his vantage.  
Leia and the tauntaun didn't have LOS on the units that supplied the standby tokens.  

So when the round started Rex and his support units were not in LOS of his later targets.  When he climbed the building they were in his range and LOS.  Next activation is my opponent drawing Leia and taking an aim which started the avalanche of standby spending, aim tokens and gunslinger shots.  She was dead before she had the chance to finish her activation.  Even if she had shot Rex instead of aiming he would have popped those three standbys on her and laid waste as he did.  She didn't have enough damage output to stop him from acting.  
You can say that the player was bad all you want, he wasn't imho...he made some mistakes but not at all a bad player.  He left an opportunity open that against any other factions wouldn't have been an issue.  I capitalized on that opening.  

Regardless, I think I've got pretty good experience showing that Offensive Push isn't as efficient as other training upgrades.  But you're welcome to your opinion.  I'm gonna keep winning games.