Dominant strategies in skirmishes/duels

[Harzerkatze 262]

47 minutes ago, Tenebrae said:

Looks like I should really look into techniques for immobilizing opponents then

Yes, a surprising amount of highly effective techniques are Movement actions. That both means that immobilizing foes prevents those AND also, BTW, that Water stance foes CANNOT combine them into a free move forward & such action & maneuver away combo (since maneuver is a Movement action).

So lets imagine a skirmish between an specialized archer with a warbow and a shinobi, starting at range 5, which is pretty advantageous to the archer. He gains the initiative, advances to range 4 (maximum warbow range) and fires a Heartpiercing strike. This battle is going great for the archer!

Then the shinobi on his turn advances to range 3, pulls out a kusari-gama (free with an attack because of Concealable) and attacks with Silent Elimination, pulling the archer to range 0, immobilizing AND forcing him into unarmed strikes. Not going so great for the archer now.

If the archer had chosen a non-Movement action, he might have stayed outside of his enemies range, but his attack wouldn't have had the same punch. Or he could have spent an Opportunity from Heartpiercing Strike to move, but at TN 4, you do not always get those.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Harzerkatze

[AtoMaki 1,431]

1 hour ago, Harzerkatze said:

So lets imagine a skirmish between an specialized archer with a warbow and a shinobi, starting at range 5, which is pretty advantageous to the archer. He gains the initiative, advances to range 4 (maximum warbow range) and fires a Heartpiercing strike. This battle is going great for the archer!

This battle is going horrible for the archer. You can't realistically one-shot a character with HPS so if you are alone then you shouldn't try that either. The archer should just run away, keeping the shinobi at Range 5-6, and shower 'em with Strife via Fire OPP until the shinobi becomes Compromised. Sometimes also Wait+Strike if the archer starts at Range 5-6 (like in their first turn). Then the archer can think about HPS'ing.  

I know this is a common misconception, but as an archer you are in no way compelled to run towards your enemy for any reason. 

[Avatar111 553]

9 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

This battle is going horrible for the archer. You can't realistically one-shot a character with HPS so if you are alone then you shouldn't try that either. The archer should just run away, keeping the shinobi at Range 5-6, and shower 'em with Strife via Fire OPP until the shinobi becomes Compromised. Sometimes also Wait+Strike if the archer starts at Range 5-6 (like in their first turn). Then the archer can think about HPS'ing.  

I know this is a common misconception, but as an archer you are in no way compelled to run towards your enemy for any reason. 

Silent Elimination is another one of those...

Edit: At the end of the day. It depends on the GM.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Avatar111

[Harzerkatze 262]

On 11/2/2019 at 3:43 PM, AtoMaki said:

This battle is going horrible for the archer. You can't realistically one-shot a character with HPS so if you are alone then you shouldn't try that either. The archer should just run away, keeping the shinobi at Range 5-6, and shower 'em with Strife via Fire OPP until the shinobi becomes Compromised. Sometimes also Wait+Strike if the archer starts at Range 5-6 (like in their first turn). Then the archer can think about HPS'ing.  

I know this is a common misconception, but as an archer you are in no way compelled to run towards your enemy for any reason. 

Well, since you brought it up, what are good counter strategies against archers like described by AtoMaki? Let's imagine that the archer tries to stay at range 5. He'll need to move to range 4, shoot and move back, or use one opportunity with Hawk's Precision kata to attack with his Horsebow from there, any more and he won't have many for his Pelting Hail Style. Also, realistically, few situations allow combat at hundreds of yards distance without any intervening structures in the way, even unobstructed range 5 is optimistic for much of where samurai move around (crowded streets, woods, taverns, courtrooms...). We imagine a skirmish scenario, because in a duel, all range limitations are off, which is not how archers like it.

- The first and most realistic counter is to challenge the archer to a Clash, since running away and sniping from afar isn't very Bushido (never mind that japanese samurai were primarily archers for most of their history). The check is easy, the archer has to give up something like 5 Glory, which hurts, or enter a Clash, which is a duel and thus negates any range problems for the melee opponent. Challenge range is 5, with a free move, you can do it to archers at any range. Of course, this only works for e.g. samurai, not bears.

- The Pole Vault kata from Courts of Stone was made for this situation, if you have a bo staff and the archer is at range 5, with a free move you can attack him, even if he hides behind obstacles like Obstructing terrain.

- You can just run up to him. Fitness TN 4 plus free Move moves you to range 1. You cannot attack this round, but now you are close. He either runs away and cannot attack himself, leading to a no-damage-stalemate, or he only moves 2 range bands in Water Stance and attacks, but then you follow and attack yourself. Thus, you have countered his range advantage for the price of one free non-Movement attack for him. Does not work if he can fight well in Water Stance and you cannot.

- Various invocations are great for ruining archer's days. Grasp of the Air Dragon has range 5 and will put him down right in front of you, with luck very violently. Hand of the Tides will exchange his position with that of a fellow fighter standing next to you, but at TN 5, it is  not easy to do. Or you can just move freely to range 4 and Fury of Osano-wo him, since in a combat at range 5 (100+ yards), you are most probably outside.

- You can sort-of ignore him and concentrate of his melee friends (the mentioned turtle bushi), with a few preparations. Creating a Wall of Earth between you and him will force him to go around it or sit out most of the skirmish. A well-placed Blessed Wind will both give his attacks TN+1 and make you invisible to him, forcing two rerolls. But that can be countered with Void attacks and an opportunity (still, he needs to have a good Void ring).

- You can just shoot back with your own bow. Sure, he probably is better at that than you, being specialized. But a Heartpiercing Strike with your own warbow and fleshcutter arrow has a good chance of dealing the Light or Severly Wounded condition on his (probably Water) Ring. And if he cannot use Water stance effectively, his options to stay at long range is greatly diminished.

Of course, a lot comes down to the specifics of the situation. If multiple friends of the archer face off with only one enemy, it is easy to keep that one busy and feather him with arrows. If multiple foes face a lone archer, it is a lot easier for them to e.g. spread out and advance so that moving away from one of them won't put the same distance to the other one (and noone is in range for Pelting Hail Stike kata).

[AtoMaki 1,431]

The Turtle Bushi hard-counters the build, but only if it solo's the archer. For the others:

• Challenge won't work because the archer obviously declines. 
• Pole Vault and other long-range gimmicky attacks won't work because the archer is actually in Guard Mode at Range 5 (obviously, that's the only useful action they can take there) so they will have a Hit TN of 7+.
• Chasing around the archer helps the archer because they won't just run around but spend Fire OPPs to Strife you out. 
• Obviously, another specced-out archer build has a good chance here, no real surprise but it kinda defeats the point. 

A Strife Nuker can also defeat this archer because it is an Air/Fire/Void build and thus has subpar Composure. However, if this is specifically the Matsu Archer build then whoever is up against them must go first on initiative or start the skirmish in cover because the Matsu Archer can f- them up with her first shot - and she can do that at Rank 2! 

Another thing to note is that the archer will be the PC in this story, fighting NPCs 90% of the time. The Matsu Archer at Rank 2 is fully developed, and you know what their equivalent NPC opponent is? The barebones Loyal Bushi. So when you try to come up with a scenario to defeat the Matsu Archer, you should make it work with the off-the-shelf Loyal Bushi. If the GM is unleashing a Matsu Archer on your party then you, as a PC, are fully entitled to call BS in my opinion . 

[Magnus Grendel 11,672]

14 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Another thing to note is that the archer will be the PC in this story, fighting NPCs 90% of the time.

Something worth noting in a lot of cases. Obviously, it depends a lot on the setting of your campaign which NPC archetypes you're likely to encounter, but some NPCs can bugger some theoretically 'invincible' builds over something rotten.

A good example is undead - undead of pretty much any variety (skeletal bushi, gashadoroku, revenant, even the basic zombie peasant) all have a composure value of ∞ - which  is really bad news for anyone who planned on using strife as a weapon.

 

 

[Harzerkatze 262]

23 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

The Turtle Bushi hard-counters the build, but only if it solo's the archer. For the others:

• Challenge won't work because the archer obviously declines. 
• Pole Vault and other long-range gimmicky attacks won't work because the archer is actually in Guard Mode at Range 5 (obviously, that's the only useful action they can take there) so they will have a Hit TN of 7+.
• Chasing around the archer helps the archer because they won't just run around but spend Fire OPPs to Strife you out. 
• Obviously, another specced-out archer build has a good chance here, no real surprise but it kinda defeats the point. 

A Strife Nuker can also defeat this archer because it is an Air/Fire/Void build and thus has subpar Composure. However, if this is specifically the Matsu Archer build then whoever is up against them must go first on initiative or start the skirmish in cover because the Matsu Archer can f- them up with her first shot - and she can do that at Rank 2! 

Another thing to note is that the archer will be the PC in this story, fighting NPCs 90% of the time. The Matsu Archer at Rank 2 is fully developed, and you know what their equivalent NPC opponent is? The barebones Loyal Bushi. So when you try to come up with a scenario to defeat the Matsu Archer, you should make it work with the off-the-shelf Loyal Bushi. If the GM is unleashing a Matsu Archer on your party then you, as a PC, are fully entitled to call BS in my opinion . 

Hmmm. Can't say I quite understand, maybe because Matsu Archer doesn't ring a bell.

- Sure you can decline a Challenge, but you pay Glory every time you do that. One way for the GM to penalize a Trick Build.

- If you are sitting at range 5 and Guard, you are not even participating in the combat except for the odd 3 Strife you throw the opponents way once per check? Three Strife is your whole contribution to the combat round? Why with unmasking, that will only take 7 combat rounds to make the Loyal Bushi compromized! I am unsure if the rest of the group would be so happy with that approach.

- Sure you can run instead of Guard to send your three Strife the opponents way. But in Fire Stance, you make it easier for him to catch up to you, if he uses Water Stance. I'm not sure how that helps the archer at all.

Perhaps you need to elaborate on your Matsu Archer build, but right now, I do not understand the appeal.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

Glory is the easiest to recover. It is very possible that the archer will gain more Glory from winning the fight than lose from declining Challenges. Same goes with Honor, too. 

If the enemy stops bothering with the archer then the archer can go back being aggressive and shoot 'em up. If the enemy does chase the archer then it doesn't matter. If the archer has a team then everything changes because the team can cover the archer and give them Assists so the archer can kill everyone in sight with ease, no need to play this cautiously. Note that the archer only has to hunker down if they are up against an obviously dangerous opponent like a shinobi or a turtler - against a simple Loyal Bushi they can just walk to Range 4 and one-shot the fool. 

Water Stance doesn't help with catching up because you can't Maneuver twice with it. Also, in Fire Stance, you actually run further due to the bonus successes you can gain from the stance. 

The Matsu Archer is a Matsu Berserker specced for archery, as they should be, instead of try-harding melee. The Berserker School gives you everything you need to be an awesome archer: Fire Ring, Martial Arts (Ranged), HPS at Rank 2, your School Ability does work with bows and HPS, Sinning Blades Style is OK for an emergency melee kata, and everything you ever need is in the School Curriculum. It is a bit weird from a thematic standpoint but it maxes out very early and is massive game changer from there. 

[Harzerkatze 262]

Hmmm. I am not convinced, but as we said, different groups have different things that work for them.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Harzerkatze

[Avatar111 553]

3 hours ago, Harzerkatze said:

Hmmm. I am not convinced, but as we said, different groups have different things that work for them.

Hence why talking "balance and tactic" just doesn't work with that game.

There are some other subjets to tackle though, like some general problematic mechanics that hinders the fun and ease of play of the game. (incapacitated condition, wounds, critical hits, opportunity list, range bands, conflicts, titles etc)

But going into detail with techniques and counters and mechanics etc, is a bottomless pit... This game cannot be taken as that type of game. It just doesn't have a system that will survive mechanical tweaking. In the end, if players approach the game like that, the GM will have to define borders and rules and establish his interpretations so that he keeps everything under control. Imo, this wouldn't be a fun way to play..

[T_Kageyasu 155]

21 hours ago, Harzerkatze said:

Also, realistically, few situations allow combat at hundreds of yards distance without any intervening structures in the way, even unobstructed range 5 is optimistic for much of where samurai move around (crowded streets, woods, taverns, courtrooms...). We imagine a skirmish scenario, because in a duel, all range limitations are off, which is not how archers like it.

Agreed, RAW means that obstructing terrain only increases the TN by 1, but assumes perfect knowledge of combatant locations. Firing from cover doesn't sound honorable either. Windy conditions and elevation differences for a range 4-5 shot should be taken into account as well, but I'm not sure what that might be. Regardless, as a GM I wouldn't make it easy for honorable PCs to snipe targets.

I'm assuming Hotaru had a clean high shot, without wind, and lots of plot to her advantage.

[Harzerkatze 262]

1 hour ago, T_Kageyasu said:

Agreed, RAW means that obstructing terrain only increases the TN by 1, ...

Obscuring terrain increases TN by 1 RAW, Obstructing terrain isn't a rules entity. A house in the way isn't just obscuring.

Just because the rules are silent on cover does not mean people can shoot through walls.

[T_Kageyasu 155]

15 hours ago, Harzerkatze said:

Obscuring terrain increases TN by 1 RAW, Obstructing terrain isn't a rules entity. A house in the way isn't just obscuring.

Just because the rules are silent on cover does not mean people can shoot through walls.

Sure, there isn't a rules entity for partial cover either but I'll look at the closest alternative that exists before declaring something impossible.