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Dalli

BoFrost - About the evolution of double Firespray

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19 minutes ago, Mighty said:

He doesn't need it. Played Timo with BoFrost twice the week before the SOS. Boba is, as strange as it sounds, an arcdoger and the times he gets caught a focus and Mauls force is enough to weather most or all of the incoming fire.

Does he push in very aggressively for the retools nearly all time? Or a lot of backshooting while running? or both. 

 

How does one fly this, especially against lots of firepower, maybe slow, like Bwings. 

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1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Does he push in very aggressively for the retools nearly all time? Or a lot of backshooting while running? or both. 

 

How does one fly this, especially against lots of firepower, maybe slow, like Bwings. 

If you can, watch some of his games (First Earth and Firestorm Games on Twitch). I didn't notice any "oh wow I'd never have thought of that!" moves or choices. He's just the best sort of player; knows when to engage and when not to, when to take which action, what order to resolve things when given the choice. And just seems to KNOW his list. Great to watch.

And with the bombs/chute combo, it wasn't always that he was being chased. Just that he knew when he was going to push away or bug out and knew dropping two bombs would a) catch someone he wanted to and/or b) cover a BIG area that would be hard to avoid without ruining your next few turns because you got yourself really out of position to avoid crits and the debris.

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Nicely done by Timo.

Really nice bomb & Rigged play against the two ARCs.  One thing which strikes me is that Timo does a great job at setting up blocks.  Firesprays seem like a great ship for that.

That Panicked Pilot crit was a back-breaker, though.  I'm not sure whether Obi survives a different crit in that position, but double-stress eliminates any options.

And then the double-bomb killbox on Ric to seal the deal?  Just well flown throughout.

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23 hours ago, Mighty said:

He doesn't need it. Played Timo with BoFrost twice the week before the SOS. Boba is, as strange as it sounds, an arcdoger and the times he gets caught a focus and Mauls force is enough to weather most or all of the incoming fire.

He is also I5. So its much easier to drop an chute with lower initiative, because you know the positions. 

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I lost to Timo in swiss, believe I got 4 damage on both Firesprays but not enough to get any points. 

To be honest I wasn't completely sure what he was doing with them to make it so effective. I was flying 5 A-Wings so the threat of the bombs, 000 and re-rolls against stress were quite hard to get through.

I wasn't ever hit by bombs but I had to constantly avoid flying too close to either ship, which obviously made it difficult to get through the defensive modifications they both have with my 2 dice attacks. And blocking Boba is relatively pointless of course. 

There was one really good turn where he caught a Blue Squadron Recruit between the front arcs of both ships, I think that's the benefit of keeping them fairly close together. 

He also won the initiative dice roll so Slave 1 became massive.

Edited by ayedubbleyoo

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1 hour ago, ayedubbleyoo said:

I lost to Timo in swiss, believe I got 4 damage on both Firesprays but not enough to get any points. 

To be honest I wasn't completely sure what he was doing with them to make it so effective. I was flying 5 A-Wings so the threat of the bombs, 000 and re-rolls against stress were quite hard to get through.

I wasn't ever hit by bombs but I had to constantly avoid flying too close to either ship, which obviously made it difficult to get through the defensive modifications they both have with my 2 dice attacks. And blocking Boba is relatively pointless of course. 

There was one really good turn where he caught a Blue Squadron Recruit between the front arcs of both ships, I think that's the benefit of keeping them fairly close together. 

He also won the initiative dice roll so Slave 1 became massive.

How did you do otherwise? The list itself does some of its own work, that's the beauty of it . The threat of the Bombs and chute makes the opponent fly differently than they normally would to avoid that. Getting into range 1 of Boba grants re-rolls getting into range 1 of Frost and either he gets a free Calc or you have to take a stress that would then grant Frost re-roll. If you stay at range 3 well the sparys will be focusing and or maybe take a lock either way the get bonus defensive dice.  Range 2 can be the sweet spot but it is hard to stay there all day and it depends on what you are flying, 2 dice attack might get some plink damage in but you will be taking 3 dice more then likely modded back at you. Also Boba has the force so even if he is not focused there is that mod for defense or offense almost always at his disposal. 

The only advice I would have after having played against the list is do not let the sprays get close enough to support each other in the first round of combat. You have to get in real close R1, real fast, with all you have on one of the sprays and focus fire it as much as possible and then bug out fast to avoid the bombs and hope that you can repeat this. This is easier said than done. However I do know and have taken out a spray in one round of combat using three ships either way you have possibly killed the spray or crippled it so bad that the player know has to protect it. Again easier said than done. But 3 proton torps or 3 range 1, 4 die modded attacks or combo there of can do it.

 

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36 minutes ago, Cpt.Kirk006 said:

Well of course it is. However if you never lived in Germany for any length of time you wouldn't get the Joke. 

To make matters funnier as seen in the UK BoFrost can and will deliver the goods.

It was less of a "I doubt this is real" but more just wanting to get in on the joke.

Edited by theBitterFig

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1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

It was less of a "I doubt it" but more just wanting to get in on it.

Do you mean the delivery service or the list.

The delivery service is not bad I have used it before.

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32 minutes ago, Cpt.Kirk006 said:

How did you do otherwise? The list itself does some of its own work, that's the beauty of it . The threat of the Bombs and chute makes the opponent fly differently than they normally would to avoid that. Getting into range 1 of Boba grants re-rolls getting into range 1 of Frost and either he gets a free Calc or you have to take a stress that would then grant Frost re-roll. If you stay at range 3 well the sparys will be focusing and or maybe take a lock either way the get bonus defensive dice.  Range 2 can be the sweet spot but it is hard to stay there all day and it depends on what you are flying, 2 dice attack might get some plink damage in but you will be taking 3 dice more then likely modded back at you. Also Boba has the force so even if he is not focused there is that mod for defense or offense almost always at his disposal. 

The only advice I would have after having played against the list is do not let the sprays get close enough to support each other in the first round of combat. You have to get in real close R1, real fast, with all you have on one of the sprays and focus fire it as much as possible and then bug out fast to avoid the bombs and hope that you can repeat this. This is easier said than done. However I do know and have taken out a spray in one round of combat using three ships either way you have possibly killed the spray or crippled it so bad that the player know has to protect it. Again easier said than done. But 3 proton torps or 3 range 1, 4 die modded attacks or combo there of can do it.

 

I went 4-2, missed out on the cut in the last game, had a fun day. 

Yeah, I followed the range control plan and it worked to a certain extent, but damage can be difficult to force through. 

Also Koshka moves after Ronith and the Blue Squadrons and Boba moves after Tallie and Zizi, so controlling range and getting shots wasn't always easy. Timo also avoided a couple of blocks that another player might have fallen for. That's how he managed to remove 2.5 A-Wings and my 4 damage on each Firespray scored 0.

It was also round 1 and I didn't know how good a player he was! :D

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@ayedubbleyoo

Tough start not knowing you were playing the next UK SOS Champ.

4-2 is very respectable. At the three tourneys I have attended so far I have managed 3-3 at each and placed in the top half of rankings.

I get lots of play in just not enough tournaments. 

Looking at a store championship next month as a practice event and then it is on to Hannover in April for the German SOS.  

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7 minutes ago, Cpt.Kirk006 said:

@ayedubbleyoo

Tough start not knowing you were playing the next UK SOS Champ.

4-2 is very respectable. At the three tourneys I have attended so far I have managed 3-3 at each and placed in the top half of rankings.

I get lots of play in just not enough tournaments. 

Looking at a store championship next month as a practice event and then it is on to Hannover in April for the German SOS.  

Oh yeah, I was happy with it, last year I was 2-4. A guy from my group made top 8 with 5 X-Wings, which was fantastic. 

I started looking for 1 win, then break even, now I just look for positive result. I didn't ever expect to do as well as that. I think a lot of it is psychological too, I always play better in more serious tournaments and against better players. Just need to get into that mindset more often!

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19 hours ago, Cpt.Kirk006 said:

But 3 proton torps or 3 range 1, 4 die modded attacks or combo there of can do it.

 

Unfortunately, this is also overestimated. Because fire sprays can reinforce action. A spray can survive first strikes very well.

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7 minutes ago, Dalli said:

Unfortunately, this is also overestimated. Because fire sprays can reinforce action. A spray can survive first strikes very well.

Plasmas are a lot more scary for Boba than Protons. A bad roll can mean all your shields go early and you're at the mercy of the damage deck, and some of them are really brutal to get early in a 2 ship list.

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3 hours ago, Dalli said:

Unfortunately, this is also overestimated. Because fire sprays can reinforce action. A spray can survive first strikes very well.

Dalli,

you are not fully correct the player controlling the sprays has to actually perform the reinforce. If the do so at the right time then this will defiantly mitigate the alpha proto torp strike. However I played rebel aces vs the list (last year April/May) and the Sprays were moving after two of my aces. The opposing player made a case of misjudgment and after moving chose to focus, further compounding the misjudgment the player did not plan on the move I made a 4 straight to get into range 3, which led to the first spray being locked and torped 3 times leaving it with one health. I won this game in under 35 minutes 200-69.

Again BoFrost is great and in the hands of a competent to good player even more so. In the hands of a less experienced player...... and everyone can misjudge how another player is going to move/engage, I know I have done this more than enough and it has costed me games I could have won.

 

 

Edited by Cpt.Kirk006
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2 hours ago, tampermagnitude said:

Plasmas are a lot more scary for Boba than Protons. A bad roll can mean all your shields go early and you're at the mercy of the damage deck, and some of them are really brutal to get early in a 2 ship list.

It does not matter if it is plasma or protons. Shields will be down on both with an average of three ships firing. The most important thing is that a Spray is not gone after that. Even after a blow like that, you still have to deal with both sprays. First strikes are not the holy grail.

Edited by Dalli

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20 minutes ago, Dalli said:

It does not matter if it is plasma or protons. Shields will be down on both with an average of three ships firing. The most important thing is that a Spray is not gone after that. Even after a blow like that, you still have to deal with both sprays. First strikes are not the holy grail.

Yep. Again going back to the Timo games I saw, some he won even with both Sprays on only hull, sometimes even low hull and critted.

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1 hour ago, Dalli said:

It does not matter if it is plasma or protons. Shields will be down on both with an average of three ships firing. The most important thing is that a Spray is not gone after that. Even after a blow like that, you still have to deal with both sprays. First strikes are not the holy grail.

Well, it does, because maths, you'll lose more shields to a plastorp than a proton, that's why i'd rather see a protorp than a plasma coming at me in the first engagement (especially if it's just the 1). It's hypothetical that you'd be in a place where you're taking 3 torps whilst reinforced anyway, if it's come to that then you dun goofed, and are now stressed with no shields. And I really wouldn't dismiss the affect that losing all Boba's shields early would have on the game, it's just asking for a game ending crit to come in. I really not happy with an early Structural damage or damaged engine etc.

Alpha strikes are not the answer as you say and I agree with that, but getting a good R2-3 engage on the sprays first up is certainly a start to beating the list. That's why it's so good in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, as they will not let you get that engage.

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50 minutes ago, tampermagnitude said:

Well, it does, because maths, you'll lose more shields to a plastorp than a proton, that's why i'd rather see a protorp than a plasma coming at me in the first engagement (especially if it's just the 1). It's hypothetical that you'd be in a place where you're taking 3 torps whilst reinforced anyway, if it's come to that then you dun goofed, and are now stressed with no shields. And I really wouldn't dismiss the affect that losing all Boba's shields early would have on the game, it's just asking for a game ending crit to come in. I really not happy with an early Structural damage or damaged engine etc.

Alpha strikes are not the answer as you say and I agree with that, but getting a good R2-3 engage on the sprays first up is certainly a start to beating the list. That's why it's so good in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, as they will not let you get that engage.

You can't walk with more shields than there are.

Fist shot:
Proton avg 1 hit
Plasma avg 1 hit + shield benefit
[force is gone]
Second shot:
Proton avg 2 hits
Plasma 1 + shild
third shot:
Proton 2 Hits (first crit comes thru)
Plasma 1 Hit (no shild left simply 1 hull)

On average, the proton torpedo is more dangerous, because at the end a crit comes through and because there is a certain chance that more than 2 hits come through. Especially with the third shot, when the plasma doesn't work anymore because there are no more shields.

Its also not importend, you can't one shot a spray. 

Edited by Dalli

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18 minutes ago, Dalli said:

You can't walk with more shields than there are.

Fist shot:
Proton avg 1 hit
Plasma avg 1 hit + shield benefit
[force is gone]
Second shot:
Proton avg 2 hits
Plasma 1 + shild
third shot:
Proton 2 Hits (first crit comes thru)
Plasma 1 Hit (no shild left simply 1 hull)

On average, the proton torpedo is more dangerous, because at the end a crit comes through and because there is a certain chance that more than 2 hits come through. Especially with the third shot, when the plasma doesn't work anymore because there are no more shields.

Its also not importend, you can't one shot a spray. 

I think you've missed the point entirely, either deliberately or accidentally? 1 plasma is going to take more shields than a protorp, and my point was you are more likely to lose 3 shields to a plasma than a protorp. And like I said, it's a pretty bad situation you've placed yourself in where you're taking 3 proton torpedoes onto a reinforced Boba, that's almost into a totally theoretical area.

On the one shot thing, yes, you can't one shot a spray. But you can take a debilitating crit early on and/or give up half points early in a 2 ship list, thats panic time. 

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1 hour ago, tampermagnitude said:

Well, it does, because maths, you'll lose more shields to a plastorp than a proton, that's why i'd rather see a protorp than a plasma coming at me in the first engagement (especially if it's just the 1).

Actually, it depends greatly on the action Boba takes, and whether or not he also has access to rerolls.

Plasma will do more damage against a reinforced Boba, since it's very hard for a reinforcing ship to prevent all the hits from a Plasma torpedo.  Protons hit harder in pretty much any other situation, because it's not too hard for a Plasma to miss entirely (Protons almost always get one through).  With a reroll and a Focus, Boba has a 43% chance to cause a single-mod Plasma Torpedo to miss, doing 0 damage.  You'll expect 1.3 damage if focused instead of 1.6 if you'd reinforced in that situation.  Even without rerolls, the odds work out slightly more in favor of focus vs reinforce against a single-mod Plasma.  Of course, it's possible Reinforce is still better, if there's enough other fire coming in.  But overall, it's always worth taking into account that Plasma Torpedoes can miss.

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On 2/11/2020 at 8:28 AM, Blail Blerg said:

They have to be chasing in right? (Though I can see where even you don't want to be there, you might be there just cuz of how stuff goes)

Not necessarily. It's always nice to leave a present for a swarm as you do a fly past 😊

It doesn't always work but if the enemy have their movement options limited by obstacles they will often set dials to fly into the channels which you can fill with a Proton.

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