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Jegergryte

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - final trailer (aka episode IX)

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4 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

We know that Kylo is no Sith, nor is Snoke. We only know they are dark side force users, but any assumption about them being Sith is only that, an assumption, that is not supported by the films, nor ancillary media. What they are is never really explained - except the references to the Knights of Ren seems to imply they are ... Rens? :ph34r: But then, there are Sith Troopers in Rise of Skywalker ... so ... perhaps .... a three way fight? Resistance vs First Order vs Sith/Empire (remnant) ?

ūüôĄ¬† Fine¬†whatever word you want to use to describe "Dark Side Force User in a Post-Palpatine Era" (which technically isn't the case since he's apparently still around).¬† I choose the word Sith, because it's one syllable, and everyone already knows what you mean when you say that.¬† If you want to be pedantic about it, knock yourself out, but since we have no other term for dark side user that is easily recognizable, good luck coming up with one that anyone will adopt! :P¬† ¬†And I mean, they've got all the same trappings as the Sith.¬† Red sabers, black outfits, masks with voice modulators.¬† Elaborate thrones in rooms with a view on the entire galaxy, personal guards all in red.¬† The number of Sith parallels is pretty overwhelming, and that's by design.¬† So...yeah Sith.¬† :P¬†

But yeah, since Palpatine is apparently alive, it's highly likely that he was the one behind it all anyway, because you know, that's his jam.  Which would mean it's likely him that taught Snoke, who taught Kylo, who is then actually a Sith, or at least Sith trained.  

4 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

This is one of the moments in TFA that I felt changed a lot. I think I like it.

It's an important detail, along with what he says to Han right before shanking him.  About how of a struggle it is to do what he thinks he needs to do to end the conflict within him.  It doesn't work, obviously, and in fact just makes it worse for him.  But he's been a conflicted sympathetic villain from the first film, and that hasn't changed at all.  It's only been reinforced further.  So yeah, my money is on he is redeemed, AND survives, just based on the narrative choices they've made so far.

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On that shot of all the ships...

This week‚Äôs Star Wars Show saw Anthony Carboni very coyly saying that it featured ‚Äúships that may or may not be the Ghost and may or may not be the Colossus.‚ÄĚ

Edited by Nytwyng

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2 hours ago, lowfyr01 said:

They should explain Palpatines return with the classic Bodyswitch. Twist is that he ended up in an ewok. Or Jar Jar if they really want to make hardcore fans cry^^

On a more serious note, I'm still thinking it's just his spirit, somehow anchored to the physical realm (maybe that chair we saw in the trailer?  Or as someone else suggested, Vader's ruined helmet?  Or even the Skywalker bloodline itself).  So he still died at the climax of RotJ, but was just too stubborn to pass on.

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2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

On a more serious note, I'm still thinking it's just his spirit, somehow anchored to the physical realm (maybe that chair we saw in the trailer?  Or as someone else suggested, Vader's ruined helmet?  Or even the Skywalker bloodline itself).  So he still died at the climax of RotJ, but was just too stubborn to pass on.

Who knows?  With magic and ghosts you can make up whatever you want and nobody can really say "Sorry that's just not believable"    I mean...the ridiculous faction of the fanbase still WILL do exactly that, but it will be very stupid of them to do so.

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2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

On a more serious note, I'm still thinking it's just his spirit, somehow anchored to the physical realm (maybe that chair we saw in the trailer?  Or as someone else suggested, Vader's ruined helmet?  Or even the Skywalker bloodline itself).  So he still died at the climax of RotJ, but was just too stubborn to pass on.

I mean it is not like force ghosts are not a thing. He would just be able to manipulate things because of some anchoring. I just hope he is not just cloned because that got old real fast in the EU.

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13 minutes ago, lowfyr01 said:

I mean it is not like force ghosts are not a thing. He would just be able to manipulate things because of some anchoring. I just hope he is not just cloned because that got old real fast in the EU.

Sadly they both have equal precedent in the franchise, so it could go either way.

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Personally I think they're going to go with clone, or something equivalent that allows an actual physical body for the actor, so they don't have to bother with that "ghost" filter.   Though having a ghost of Palp's floating around, calling Rey to him so he can possess her would explain the Sith Rey we see in the previous trailer, as a possible outcome for her.   And her line about how nobody knows her, felt fairly angry in it's tone, so it could actually be an indication that she's going to start slipping towards the Dark, because she's tired of all the expectations.  

*shrugs*  I dunno, the different bits of data don't make for an easy guestimate of what will happen.

 

I'm not really sure which I would prefer.  Honestly just the fact that it's Palpatine at all just makes me tired.  Dipping into that well, physical or ghost, just makes me lose a lot of enthusiasm for this film.

Edited by KungFuFerret

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Well, if Palps is a ghost and did so via "unnatural" means as opposed to Kenobi and Yoda who willingly became a part of the Force via acceptance of their deaths, they LFL doesn't necessarily need to have the "ghost filter" effect applied for most of Palp's scenes (however many there are).  And they're probably already doing the filter anyway unless Mark Hamill's only providing voice lines in this film rather than Luke's ghost making an actual appearance.

Plus, avoiding using the ghost filter on Palps until just the right moment helps keep the element of "yeah, he's dead and this is just his spirit lingering on long after" better hidden.  Only using a filter (possibly red due to his being a Sith and the Sith's strong links to the color red?) just as he's being banished once and for all would further highlight just on unnatural his being around would be.

It also averts the "he just used a clone body!" which is frankly a cheap cop-out.  Dark Horse certainly caught flak for that (and even more so for pulling the exact same trick in Dark Empire II), and the Story Group team are well aware (perhaps more so than they might like at times) of attitudes towards various things in Legends.

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3 hours ago, lowfyr01 said:

I mean it is not like force ghosts are not a thing. He would just be able to manipulate things because of some anchoring.

Well, Yoda's already shown us in TLJ that as a Force ghost, one can still have a direct influence on the physical realm, given that he called down a lightning bolt to set the ancient temple/tree ablaze as part of imparting one final lesson to Luke.

We never saw Force ghosts directly interacting with the realm of the living because ever other appearance of them was modeled off Kenobi's actions (or lack there of) in ESB and RotJ, where he served in more of an advisory capacity to Luke.  Which in turn lead to speculation that a Force ghost isn't really a ghost of that person, but instead is the Force manifesting itself in a form the viewer is reasonably comfortable with, answering a subconscious call for advice from particularly strong/gifted/talented Force users.

It's really all up in the air what Force ghosts are and what precisely they can and can't do, as per the movies Qui-Gon was the first Jedi to figure it out, and neither Yoda or Obi-Wan seemed to have left any notes behind detailing what they did or didn't know.

Maybe in this film we'll see a Force ghost of Luke show up to lend support to Rey (or even Kylo) at a critical moment, such as stone-walling an otherwise lethal barrage of Force lightning.  It'd be quite chuckle-worthy for me if Luke showed up at that moment, then said to Ben/Kylo, "told you I'd seen you around kid" with the sort of self-satisfied smirk that only a father telling a real groaner of a dad-joke can have.

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5 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, if Palps is a ghost and did so via "unnatural" means as opposed to Kenobi and Yoda who willingly became a part of the Force via acceptance of their deaths,

Problem is this isn't something that is actually established in the films, that the Force ghost thing is a Light Side only thing.   I mean that rule didn't even apply to the EU stuff either.  Sith ghosts were pretty easy to pop up, like roaches.  So I doubt he has to do anything "unnatural" to become a ghost.   They'll probably just chalk it up to "He's super powerful, and so something that powerful can hang around if it wants to."

7 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Plus, avoiding using the ghost filter on Palps until just the right moment helps keep the element of "yeah, he's dead and this is just his spirit lingering on long after" better hidden.  Only using a filter (possibly red due to his being a Sith and the Sith's strong links to the color red?) just as he's being banished once and for all would further highlight just on unnatural his being around would be.

It also averts the "he just used a clone body!" which is frankly a cheap cop-out.  Dark Horse certainly caught flak for that (and even more so for pulling the exact same trick in Dark Empire II), and the Story Group team are well aware (perhaps more so than they might like at times) of attitudes towards various things in Legends.

It could be, it wouldn't be the first time Disney has doctored a trailer to show us a scene, but also hide spoilers (Looking at you Endgame trailer showing us Thor walking in that time travel suit).   

As to the Story Group being aware of things...well, ok?  I mean that didn't stop them from copy pasting New Hope in TFA and copy pasting a lot of Empire into TLJ ?  So I don't see why they would suddenly decide that "rehashing the clone Emperor plot hook" is a bridge too far you know?   

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1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

As to the Story Group being aware of things...well, ok?  I mean that didn't stop them from copy pasting New Hope in TFA and copy pasting a lot of Empire into TLJ ?  So I don't see why they would suddenly decide that "rehashing the clone Emperor plot hook" is a bridge too far you know?   

Story Group has no control over the scripts of the film, so calling BS right there.

Plus, if you're going to pitch a Daeglan-style fit about copying the previous films, then at least be willing to acknowledge that Lucas did the exact same thing with the prequels, making minor changes to each film but still keeping the primary story beats identical, changing only enough to account for those films taking place prior to the originals and thus having to abide by the state of affairs that those original films set up (Anakin falling to the dark side and winding up in a mobile iron lung, Yoda and Obi-Wan surviving everything, Palps winning, Luke and Leia being separated).

Now some film students/critics call it "ring theory," while others point to it as Lucas being an old hack who ran out of original ideas long ago.  Or maybe never really had any original ideas to start with, seeing as how much of ANH's fundamental elements is very much a copy/paste of the old Kurasawa film Hidden Fortress.

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7 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Story Group has no control over the scripts of the film, so calling BS right there.

Plus, if you're going to pitch a Daeglan-style fit about copying the previous films,

Wow, just mentioning the fact makes it a "daeglan style fit" in your mind?  Over react much there pal?   I wasn't criticizing the films by pointing on the very obvious parallels in the story beats from those films.  They're there, plain as day.  I personally don't have a problem with that on a fundamental level, so just chill the **** out ok?   It wasn't an attack.  I like TFA and TLJ just fine, but to say they don't liberally yoink from the OT is just dishonest. 

My point was that I don't see, given all the other things that the fanbase is tired of that they've already retooled, why "clone emperor" is the one thing they wouldn't cross.   The franchise is bloated with callback fanservice, in every level of it, games to tv shows to films.  So to say "nah, we can't do Clone Palps, that's been done too much." Just seems like a very thin rationale, given they are happy to do it with anything they can feasibly cram into the narrative that has a callback element to it.

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Force ghosts interacting with the physical world has been a thing since 1983, thanks to Alex Guinness brushing hanging foliage out of his way as Obi-Wan entered the scene in Return if the Jedi to explain being a dirty rotten liar to Luke.

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24 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Force ghosts interacting with the physical world has been a thing since 1983, thanks to Alex Guinness brushing hanging foliage out of his way as Obi-Wan entered the scene in Return if the Jedi to explain being a dirty rotten liar to Luke.

Dude... Whoa whoa whoa. The from a certain point of view caveat gives him carte blanche. I've been using it for years and it has never failed me once.  

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2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I hope that all this speculation about clones and ghosts is completely off base, like when people were convinced Finn would be the sequels era Jedi figure from the TFA trailer.

Remember how much Abrams' movies use misdirection and vagueness in the marketing.

Well, there's bound to be some explanation for why Palpatine's still around 30 some-odd years after his death in RotJ.  Maybe it's a clone, maybe it's a ghost, or maybe it's just a holo-projection ala Oz the Great and Powerful with a Kowakian Monkey Lizard at the controls concealed behind the big stone throne we saw in the trailer.  Using archived footage and creative editing wouldn't be the first time the bad guys of a Legends story tried to make it seem like Palpatine was still around long after his death.

And fair point on Abrams, given the whole "we swear Benedict's character is not Kahn!" farce regarding Star Trek: Into Darkness.

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14 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Vader = Gollum. One personality fights the other for control, and in the case of Vader, more or less eradicated the other for a time. Thus, it could be stated, not entirely unreasonably, that Vader killed Anakin.

Hey, that sort of rationale worked for Obi-Wan Kenobi.

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1 minute ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

maybe it's just a holo-projection ala Oz the Great and Powerful with a Kowakian Monkey Lizard at the controls concealed behind the big stone throne we saw in the trailer.

I would actually love that. Have the First Order and Resistance Rebellion (apparently) discover that this new threat was just an overly ambitious Salacious Crumb.

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52 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Force ghosts interacting with the physical world has been a thing since 1983, thanks to Alex Guinness brushing hanging foliage out of his way as Obi-Wan entered the scene in Return if the Jedi...

Focusing on this part, it highlights that the rules for Force ghosts (along with many other things in the franchise) can change from one film to the next.

Back in ANH, it was figured that Ben could only speak from beyond the pale, until ESB showed him physically manifesting to Luke on Hoth and then later to try and stop Luke from heading to Bespin.  Then as you pointed out in RotJ, we do see him interacting with the environment (although that might just be due to limitations of special effects at the time and not really being able to convincingly have Alec Guiness ghost-walk through everything).  Then we get TLJ where Yoda literally calls down lightning, showing that Force ghosts can have a dramatic impact on the world around them if they so choose.

Point being, the rules on Force ghosts aren't necessarily set in stone, and if anyone's going to buck the conceit that only the good guys get to become Force ghosts, then it's going to be Palpatine.  Whose even on record as saying the dark side is the pathway to many abilities some would consider... unnatural.

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I have a strong feeling Palpatine is physically alive in this movie. That one scene in the trailer shows Rey confronting a hooded man in black robes, very reminiscent of the Emperor, seated in a mechanized throne that’s moving towards her menacingly, with Palpatine’s characteristic cackle. 

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21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I have a strong feeling Palpatine is physically alive in this movie. That one scene in the trailer shows Rey confronting a hooded man in black robes, very reminiscent of the Emperor, seated in a mechanized throne that’s moving towards her menacingly, with Palpatine’s characteristic cackle. 

See section: "Deceptive Trailers"

It is a decent indicator, but we've been tricked before (Jedi Finn for example).

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