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Jegergryte

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - final trailer (aka episode IX)

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Yep. Well. I'm not hoping, but if that is it, then I'm going to try and not complain - and rather enjoy it. I guess I won't be decided until January or February 2020. So. Yeah. :D

Also, this is already a far better film than any of the others for one simple reason: B-wing. I saw a B-wing. That's my most important criterion for quality Star Wars. :ph34r:

Also, that throne looked cool ... made me think of Talzin for some reason, although I'm not suggesting that Talzin will appear or be referenced. I'm just saying, it reminded me of the elaborations of TCW and Rebels. :)

I'm almost drooling here... very excited :D

Edited by Jegergryte

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2 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

Yep. Well. I'm not hoping, but if that is it, then I'm going to try and not complain - and rather enjoy it. I guess I won't be decided until January or February 2020. So. Yeah. :D

I think my concern, if it does turn out that the whole events of the new movies are simply the machinations of Darth Sidious as part of some long-reaching master scheme of his, is that it turns him into the same sort of Machiavellian uber-plotter that a substantial portion of the Legends fans kept claiming Thrawn was always portrayed as.  Not saying that Sidious wasn't a skilled plotter (he did after all set up one heck of a long-term gambit to destroy the Jedi Order and overthrow the Republic), but to me it was more that he was adept (especially in the prequels) at adapting his plans as circumstances changed, a trait he lost by the time RotJ came around because he'd gotten so used to success that he got lazy, and so Vader tossing him down the reactor shaft came completely out of left field as Palps just assumed that either Luke would turn and become his new apprentice, or Vader would kill the boy and prove his value/loyalty.  To say that he had some grand scheme that would extend 30 years past his death involving factors well outside of his control is stretching things.

That said, I've little doubt that I'll enjoy this movie.  Apart from the prequels (for which I mourn more the lost potential those films could have shown in the hands of a more capable director), I've fully enjoyed each Star Wars live-action film released, even Solo (which is just an all-around fun film).

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Well, we know Palps had plots and plans for failure (Op Cinder or whatever it was called from the comics), and while I agree it could be a bit meh, it is also a nice nod to some really fundamental EU/Legends stories. I mean, I see callbacks to Katana-fleet (ISDs instead of whatever it originally was), so perhaps Snoke was the Joruus replacement, we skip Thrawn, and have Palps in the background instead, pulling strings and deceiving everyone (like the Dark Empire comics - which I enjoyed back then at least.) Taking a page from Dark Empire, this could be a spirit transfer thing (I hope not), or perhaps he got access to the time-space-dimension-thingamajig that we saw in Rebels - or some version of it (or perhaps he downloaded himself into a droid of some sort ...) And of course, there's always clones. When in doubt: clones. :ph34r: Or was that ninjas ... I never can recall.

Generally, I agree though. His voice and the stuff is clearly put there to make us wonder - and it's there to distract us, most definitely.

Prequels ... yes. I really enjoy TPM and RotS, they're nice adventure films with action. AotC ... I cannot bring myself to thoroughly enjoy it, but the story is good - despite ... yeah. Old grounds these are ... no need to beat a dead horse.

 

As an aside: Solo is effin' ACE! It's real good and nice SW without the Skywalker and Force-malarkey :ph34r: I really liked everything about it, as a fan, GM, and player. I liked it better than Rogue One even. *scuttles off to hide*

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17 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

As an aside: Solo is effin' ACE! It's real good and nice SW without the Skywalker and Force-malarkey :ph34r: I really liked everything about it, as a fan, GM, and player. I liked it better than Rogue One even. *scuttles off to hide*

I'm right there with you, as I found Solo to be a far more enjoyable film than Rogue One, though much of that has to do with my general dislike of "kill them all" style of endings employed outside of horror/slasher movies (that genre pretty much requires that most if not all of the non-homicidal characters are going to get their tickets punched).

With Palps, I'm not adverse to the idea of it being a droid with the recorded memories/personality of the Emperor.  Dark Empire never sat well with me simply because it felt like it lubricated all over Vader's sacrifice in RotJ, and Luke going to the dark side as the resurrected Palps' apprentice rendered Luke's own realization at the climax of that movie moot.

With Operation Cinder, I got the impression that the whole point of that was Palp's throwing a posthumous hissy fit and trying to literally burn the galaxy to the ground once he was gone.  Or maybe it was a smokescreen to allow the First Order to be established and given time/room to grow, although that doesn't quite jive for me as much of what we see of Palps is that he's a grade-A narcissist, so having a hidden Empire to carry on his schemes after his death doesn't quite seem the sort of thing a full-blown narcissist would do.  Of course, if he had found some way to survive after his "death" in RotJ, be it clones ala Dark Empire or some other method, then maybe having plans to establish the First Order makes sense, but that loops around to invalidating a large part of Vader's sacrifice in RotJ to save his son destroy the man who was the architect behind so much of the galaxy's suffering over the past 30 some-odd years.

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Yeah, I see your point. The whole Palps thing may just be a smokescreen. But why not enjoy myself :)I mean, I'm pretty sure there's going to be something related to him and his actions, but not a full fledged plan or presence of a live Palpatine. We'll know December 18 :) Until then I intend to speculate and throw ideas out there ... could inspire me to run my own game too (I had a great idea about Palps a few months back, but was during a party do I forgot [and it probably wasn't that great.] which made me frustrated for a couple of weeks...)

I'm not sure I agree with the Dark Empire invalidating, or undermining, Vader's sacrifice (I know you used the term "lubricate," and I have to admit I'm not entirely sure what you mean by it.) I guess, at a macro- or meta-level it sort of can, but considering that specific conflict and story, I don't think it does. Luke's apprenticeship was a bit off, I agree, but here too I believe it sort of works - in a similar way to grumpy Luke in TLJ. It was a skysidious plot to off Palps, of course. ;) Anyway, I enjoyed it back then, I only browse through it these days when I'm having a particularly protracted visit on the bog. I really love the art style.

I think the droid idea is pretty cool, and it is kind of in line with Ops Cinder (Sentinels they were called? I can't recall.) Anyhew. That has some drawbacks, considering force powers and such ... but then, the red eyed C3PO ... that line in the trailer ... perhaps there's a link in some way there? We know Anakin made C3PO, but we don't know why, from what parts, and so on ... I'm not sold on nor excited about this train of thought, but there  could be something there... that C3PO after all this time is connected also to Palps in some way ... sounds too much like a Shyamalan twist ... *shudder* :ph34r:

My memory of Cinder was along those lines yes, that if he couldn't have an Empire, no one should be able to take over his empire, so destroy all infrastructure and everything else you can, to throw everything and everyone into chaos. It's not a bad middle finger to your enemies. I quite liked the idea.

Well, if we accept that Palps could see the future and interpret it with some skill and good measure of probability, he would know that many places there were points where everything could fall apart - so adaptation of his plans and actions are of course where he excels - and this could also be grounds for playing an even longer-game, another Sith long-game (what is 30 years compared to 1000 years or whatever it was in TPM according to Ki-Adi-Mundi?). He foresees his potential demise, and constructs fail-safes, fall-backs, middle-finger-plans, and other solutions and hail-Mary's, that all move towards the ultimate goal: to get a product of a Force-vergence, or two (hey, perhaps Rey was made by him/is a (product of a) Force-vergence too?), in a place, at a time, to create this Force-singularity that does [PLOT!]. I know. I'm reaching and speculating as mo-fo tin-foil-hat youtuber. :ph34r: I'm not at all sold or convinced by this, I cannot even persuade myself ... but based on random lines, images, and pure speculative creativity, this is what I came up with. Yay! :ph34r:

As for the invalidation of Vader's sacrifice, this is where some of the TLJ critics kind of have a point though, because the galaxy has been suffering for 30 years, despite the sacrifice of Vader - partly because of Ops Cinder, but also other stuff. This is a central challenge to the sequel trilogy, that they are (supposedly) resolving in episode IX. As some say Anakin wasn't the chosen one, but Luke was, perhaps it wasn't either one, but Ben is supposed to be ... or even better yet, Rey is supposed to be - through some living force reaction to the Skywalker line's existence, Rey is spawned ... who knows...? (we will soon, ish... December).

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16 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

As for the invalidation of Vader's sacrifice,

What is the specific criticism about the invalidation of his sacrifice?  I don't really delve too deeply into the anti-New Series content, so I only see the regularly tread comments.  I'm guessing it's the "If Palpatine is still alive, then Anakin's death was meaningless?"   If so...yeah I find it fairly annoying too.  I personally get REALLY tired of all the pathological need in the Star Wars franchise to have constant callbacks to the previous stuff.  Fanservice, in my opinion, is killing the franchise more than anything.   It's often used to substitute for lazy writing, in the hopes that making the audience go "ooh! that's a thing from the previous movies!  I like that thing thus I like this movie better!" and that just irks me.

So yeah, dragging Palp's back just makes me roll my eyes.  I understand the need for a new bigger threat, so they can justify Kylo and Rey teaming up to take it down, opening up the path for Kylo's redemption.  But, I mean they already had a villain that would work well for that, and they already got rid of him.  I wish they'd just made up someone new really.  The puppet master behind Snoke or whatever.  Personally, I'd find that far more palatable than "It's been the Emperor the whole time!!!  What a twist!" 

But, I mean, it's not like they didn't already do that in the Dark Empire II comic series, so it's hardly out of theme for the franchise to just clone up corpses of previous characters to insert them into a new story.  I just don't think it's very creative is all.

About the trailer:  It was fine, I wish they hadn't shown that scene of the two of them smashing what looks like Kylo's altar to Vader's mask.  I think it just spoils too much, but...*shrugs*. 

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3 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

What is the specific criticism about the invalidation of his sacrifice?

Since I was the one that brought it up, the invalidation bit comes from the notion that Vader's destiny as the Chosen One was to destroy the Sith, finally doing so in RotJ by casting the Emperor to his doom and then dying himself, and thus removing the "cancer" that was the Sith from the galaxy, a notion that itself came from the mouth of George Lucas.  Granted, Lucas can be rather revisionary in things with regards to "what was meant to be," so it's fair to take his explanations with a few grains of salt.  Though it does make sense that the saga thus far has been about Anakin's Rise, Fall, Redemption, and now the Legacy of his actions and how they impact the next generation.  For what it's worth, the new trilogy is labeled as being part of the Skywalker Saga even though any Force user with that particular surname is now dead as of Episode 8.

For me, it was the fact that Vader finally threw off his shackles (even more so in the light of what we learn about him in the Prequels and Clone Wars series) and at last did what he was meant to do being treated as the summation of his story arc, dying a hero after having spent the past quarter century as a villain, only to have one of the driving elements of that sacrifice (destroying the evil wizard that was the cause of so much of the galaxy's suffering) be rendered moot by said evil wizard as having cheated death only to be revealed as the grand mastermind behind the latest evil scheme.  The whole thing just leaves a sour taste in my mouth, since as you said it's just rehashing an old plot by having it be Palpatine all this time that's the mastermind of the evil conquering space fascists.  With Snoke, I'm not upset at him dying as his role was really just to be a tool for Kylo's stepping up and into the role of the Big Bad of the new trilogy; I'm frankly hoping that Kylo doesn't get a redemption arc, or at the very least he finally does a proper emulation of his grandfather and dies doing something heroic that saves lives, embracing the light with his final breaths.

With regards to the Dark Empire plot, when I was running Star Wars games set in the New Republic era, I used broad strokes and instead had it be a mere clone of the Emperor that merely thought it was the original Emperor reborn, similar to how the "return" of Kahless was done in Star Trek: Next Generation, with several of his former acolytes propping the clone!Emperor up as being the real thing returned from the dead as a means of psychological warfare against the New Republic, and that the "Force storms" were instead a very specialized variation of hyperdrive technology that proved to be far too unstable for sustained use and that any sane mind would avoid employing unless out of extreme desperation.

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2 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Since I was the one that brought it up, the invalidation bit comes from the notion that Vader's destiny as the Chosen One was to destroy the Sith,

Was that his destiny though?  Because the only thing I remember them saying was "Bring balance to the Force."  Which isn't the same thing as "Destroying the Sith" to me.   Granted it's been probably over a decade since I've seen any of the prequels, so maybe I'm missing some lines where they did specify it was a Destroy the Sith thing, but I don't think so?    

This is a problem whenever you do prophecies in your story though, if anything else happens after, it risks devaluing what was previously done.   Personally though, I always interpreted the prophecy as "he stopped the Emperor from completely snuffing out the light, by destroying him, and bursting the Imperial bubble that was threatening to overtake the galaxy.  Basically he just equalized the pressure in a container that was about to rupture.  Doesn't mean things couldn't happen later that would be bad as well, just THAT really big explosion was thwarted because of his actions.   

So I don't think, personally it invalidates his sacrifice based on the prophecy, I think it invalidates it, because the badguy he killed is back again for nothing more than a surprise fanservice reason.   That's my take on it anyway.

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In my opinion, Anakin brought balance to the force by destroying the Sith, and then Luke brought balance to the force (or should have, anyway. I don't particularly like either version of the post-endor time period) by not really being a Jedi.

I'm holding off on condemning the alleged return of palps, because if darkness rises and light to meet it, why can't Anakin return as well to do battle once more with his enemy? I get chills just thinking about it!

I'm pretty sure this would never happen, but I'd like to see Kylo redeemed, and as the avatar of Anakin, and Rey, in some way, turned and as the avatar of Palpatine. I'm picturing a lightsaber fight between the two of them, using the lightsaber styles of Palpatine and Anakin and as it zooms out, you see through the mist and the salt-spray and the fog, the ghostly silhouettes of Anakin and Palpatine mirroring the duel.

In my ideal world, (no, not Reylo, that's stupid) Anakin would do away with Palpatine, and he and Luke would both be back as force ghosts, advising Rey and Kylo who would go on to truly bring balance to the force by doing away with the Jedi and the Sith and basically becoming Gray Jedi.

Edited by P-47 Thunderbolt

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I hear you on fan-service @KungFuFerret. I do. Yet. I've enjoyed that writing more than I did the prequels. But I guess bad writing comes in all manners. :ph34r: It's the go-to of Disney, and most other companies these days, re-hash, re-make, don't think about anything new. I get that they didn't want to do the micro-realm of midichlorians that Lucas supposedly wrote some story treatments on, as the franchise needed some fan-service (from one perspective) to earn some quick bucks and spread the word that Star Wars ain't all about the groundbreaking CGI and new ideas from Lucas' head, but also storytelling of a more conventional and familiar type. But this is a completely different discussion that I'd prefer to avoid ... it's way too normative for any real, sensible, online discussion.

I don't believe, whatever their solution is, that it is entirely due to fan-service, that is too reductionist and simplistic.

Whether they revive Palps or introduce someone new (big evil overlord midichlorian mutant beasts for instance?), or a combination of some type, I have this gut-feeling that the story is somehow similar or related to the story that Qui-Gon Jinn tells Obi-Wan (I believe) in some old Star Wars Tales (I think) issue about two twins that ended up creating a sun or something as they fought or whatever, I may recall incorrectly. But after TFA, and especially TLJ - and with the new trailer(s) - I kind of feel they're going in a direction of parallels, not just opposites or binaries, but parallels. I can't substantiate more than that I think. But the general gist of what I'm thinking is related to a singularity idea ... which of course sounds completely off what I'm thinking... It's only a hunch, and not really a theory, because I have no story-points or reasons or motivations ... just an image of a result of some kind. This image is also related to the Altar of Mortis series of episodes of TCW (and the Loth-wolves thingy in Rebels.)

If JJ is bringing it all together, PT, OT and ST, I speculatively assume that elements from TCW and Rebels (beyond starship cameos) could be part of that too... perhaps I have a hope of something like that at least.

And if Palps can have an integral and cool part of such a story, I'll buy it. As long as the story is cool and entertaining, I don't really care about anything else - whether fan-service-wise or criteria of "good" or "bad" ... I know a story is "good" when I see it. I'm not going to prevent myself from enjoying something just because I can. :ph34r:

I think both Rey and Kylo should go dark and die, or be sucked up by Mortis, revive the Father (or Kylo or Rey takes on that mantle), Palps take on the Son's mantle, and the remaining of Reylo takes on the daughter's mantle, and re-establish balance and ... :ph34r: or do I really think that?

Edited by Jegergryte

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8 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I'm pretty sure this would never happen, but I'd like to see Kylo redeemed, and as the avatar of Anakin, and Rey, in some way, turned and as the avatar of Palpatine.

Yeah I don't see that happening.  My personal theory, based on the teaser content we have so far from the trailers is roughly:

Kylo is going to continue to have a crisis of faith about whether he should be dark or not.  He'll be fighting off the First Order, as Hux makes moves to try and remove him for, well being him.   He will have his own version of a dark side cave vision quest thingy, and that's where he sees the Dark Rey we saw in the previous trailer.  Given his main motivation so far is to try and get with her, to have her in his life in some capacity, he's going to see her in his vision, as she is the key emotional story element for him at this point.   He's going to see her as a Dark Rey, and realize this possible Rey, is due to him turning her, which he thinks is something he wants.  But the changes it makes to her, will basically destroy everything about Rey that drew him to her in the first place.  He'll probably also see a vision of her dying or something, and then he'll make the choice of "I can't live with her dying, and I can't stop her dying if I stay dark, so I'll turn away and do what I have to, in order to save her, because she's basically the only thing I give a **** about anymore in this galaxy, other than my mom."  They'll have a conflict or twelve, the emperor will work into it somehow, likely as the source of Rey's potential corruption, and all the shots we see of him fighting Rey on the surface of the ship is actually a fakeout.  That she's starting to fall to the Emperor's influence, and he's there to stop her from going dark.  But we think it's the other way around, because of outfit color coding, and previous behavior in the other films.    They will eventually work together, and defeat Palps, and Kylo will get redeemed (and live), but it won't necessarily be a happy ending with medals and ceremonies kind of happy ending.  He'll go off for a while, probably walking into the sunset or something, to figure out wtf he is going to do next now that he's not trying to be evil.   And Rey will stay with the good guys, but establish that "she'll be with him, always" or something like that.   Securing the Reylo shipping (which yes, I do think is what will happen), without actually having it happen in film, more of a subsequent thing in later material.

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20 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I just don't want kids watching these movies see an abusive murderer portrayed as boyfriend material. Bad enough that a wifebeater gets cosmically forgiven and turned into a smiling ghost reunited with his old friends.

I was gonna say it's bad enough there's people trying to use Joker/Harley Quinn as "relationship goals" when that's a textbook example of an abusive, dysfunctional, and destructive relationship.

Though I do think calling Anakin a wifebeater is going a bit too far.  I'll grant you the Anakin/Padme relationship wasn't entirely healthy, but it was far from being abusive.  Cringeworthy to watch as two actors with zero chemistry fumbled through some of the sappiest dialogue committed to screen as it might have been, the two characters did love each other, even if on Anakin's end it could be read as a bit of a creepy stalker vibe (especially thanks to some scenes in AotC).

Did he screw up in lashing out in anger, inflicting what was lethal injuries to Padme (I don't buy into the "she died from sadness" explanation), undoubtedly the answer to that is yes.  But then RotS never tried to paint Anakin post-fall as being in the right, or as an example of something to emulate.

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I mean, someone who chokes his wife in a rage is by any definition that makes sense a wifebeater. And he becomes a Force ghost and is welcomed by his old friends/comrades, one of whom witnessed the violence. So... yeah.

Though I don't want to go further with that tangent on here.

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So back to the topic of Palpatine, here's a random thought I had about him showing up after all this time...

What if he had found a way to "transcend death" not as a corporeal being, but as a spirit, not unlike what Kenobi, Yoda, Anakin, and possibly even Luke have done?  But where as the Jedi only fade in as they are needed, Palps found his own way to hang around, perhaps even mystically tying himself to the Skywalker bloodline, which (depending on what happens to Leia in the film) might now solely revolve around Ben Solo, the last living heir of Anakin Skywalker?  It's hard to think of a better "Fook you!" to the person that killed him (physically at least) than to bind your very existence to that person's bloodline, so that as long as their family/lineage exists, you'll exist?

This would mean the only way to truly be rid of Palpatine would be for Ben Solo to perish, and I could very well see him doing it in an overly dramatic way (as not unlike his grandfather Anakin, Ben does enjoy his dramatism) as both a renouncement of the dark side and of everything the First Order stands for, but also an embracing of the legacy of sacrifice that his family has undergone (Anakin sacrificing himself for his son, Han sacrificing himself to try and save Ben, Luke sacrificing himself to save what was left of the Resistance, maybe even Leia having sacrificed herself in some way prior to that moment), and thus finally once and for all clearing the slate and giving Rey a blank campus upon which to build a new order of spiritualty-inclined warrior-monks, using those ancient texts she swiped to start clean and without the baggage or dogma of the Jedi.  Maybe even call the members of her new order Skywalkers, in honor of Luke's legacy as the great hero of the Rebellion and the last of the Jedi.

I doubt any of that would be the case, but it's an idea, and would permit for Ben to make some measure of amends for his actions in the prior films while still embracing the drama that his grandfather was so enamored with.

And don't try to tell me Vader wasn't overly dramatic.  This is the guy that used his personal TIE as a chariot to intimidate a teenage bow (Season 2 finale of SW Rebels), or switched off his life support system to creep the heck out of a bunch of Rebel mooks (Rogue One), to say nothing of the dramatic heroics he committed as Anakin Skywalker during the Clone Wars.

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1 hour ago, Jegergryte said:

It supports the age-old religio-ethics concerned with forgiveness in the afterlife.

Going by ancillary material, realizing that he'd murdered his beloved wife and unborn child was indeed the point that Anakin fully embraced the Darth Vader persona and went all in on the "then let me be evil!" mindset, feeling that he was indeed beyond any sort of redemption for that one moment.  He also was generally being far less emotional after that point, realizing that by losing control in that moment he destroyed everything he was trying to preserve, and likely resolving to never suffer that sort of loss of control ever again.  He figured that in killing the woman he loved and their unborn child, there was no greater sin for him left to commit, so he might as well hitch his wagon to Palpatine's for the duration since he was (in his view) well and truly unforgiveable, and anything evil he did after that one act was irrelevant.

It really wasn't until Luke (who like the audiences of the time weren't aware of the full magnitude of Vader's crimes over the intervening years) was able to forgive him and acknowledge the good person that Anakin had been that Vader was finally able to forgive himself.  Which itself plays into the notion of Luke as a metaphor for a savior-like figure, able to forgive others even when everyone else says they are beyond forgiveness.  Whether Luke was right or was a naïve twit is a matter of personal opinion.

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Just now, Jegergryte said:

I thought something like that the moment I saw the title of IX …

You're not alone in that.  A lot of folks (ourselves included) have been wondering if that would be the case.  That or Rey takes the surname for herself, given that the films have been rather cagey about revealing what Rey's actual surname (if she even has one) is.

I could see it going either way, though my preference is for the "Skywalker Order" rather than her becoming Rey Skywalker.  Then again, Jedi is one of those phrases/concepts that reverberates with the franchise as a larger whole, so I can see them playing it a bit safe and going the route of Rey Skywalker and a New Jedi Order, especially if there are inclinations to do later films set in the aftermath of however this film shakes out.

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15 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

So back to the topic of Palpatine, here's a random thought I had about him showing up after all this time...

What if he had found a way to "transcend death" not as a corporeal being, but as a spirit, not unlike what Kenobi, Yoda, Anakin, and possibly even Luke have done?  But where as the Jedi only fade in as they are needed, Palps found his own way to hang around, perhaps even mystically tying himself to the Skywalker bloodline, which (depending on what happens to Leia in the film) might now solely revolve around Ben Solo, the last living heir of Anakin Skywalker?  It's hard to think of a better "Fook you!" to the person that killed him (physically at least) than to bind your very existence to that person's bloodline, so that as long as their family/lineage exists, you'll exist?

This would mean the only way to truly be rid of Palpatine would be for Ben Solo to perish, and I could very well see him doing it in an overly dramatic way (as not unlike his grandfather Anakin, Ben does enjoy his dramatism) as both a renouncement of the dark side and of everything the First Order stands for, but also an embracing of the legacy of sacrifice that his family has undergone (Anakin sacrificing himself for his son, Han sacrificing himself to try and save Ben, Luke sacrificing himself to save what was left of the Resistance, maybe even Leia having sacrificed herself in some way prior to that moment), and thus finally once and for all clearing the slate and giving Rey a blank campus upon which to build a new order of spiritualty-inclined warrior-monks, using those ancient texts she swiped to start clean and without the baggage or dogma of the Jedi.  Maybe even call the members of her new order Skywalkers, in honor of Luke's legacy as the great hero of the Rebellion and the last of the Jedi.

I doubt any of that would be the case, but it's an idea, and would permit for Ben to make some measure of amends for his actions in the prior films while still embracing the drama that his grandfather was so enamored with.

And don't try to tell me Vader wasn't overly dramatic.  This is the guy that used his personal TIE as a chariot to intimidate a teenage bow (Season 2 finale of SW Rebels), or switched off his life support system to creep the heck out of a bunch of Rebel mooks (Rogue One), to say nothing of the dramatic heroics he committed as Anakin Skywalker during the Clone Wars.

Interesting ideas. There’s also the theory that’s been floating around for months that Palpatine’s spirit has been lingering in Vader’s helmet, whispering to Ben/Kylo to do all sorts of horrible things, built from the conclusion that, if Anakin were truly redeemed at the time of his death, it adds another layer to Kylo’s fascination with Vader’s helmet and talk about “finishing what (Vader) started.”

If he and Rey are destroying his display of Vader’s helmet...maybe there’s something to that....

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