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Forcause31

Quiting at the final table -Worlds Recap

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Guys, maybe we should not go ham on OP. Because we think he's being a dips*** about quitting in the finals. Read the title. He's being a dips*** about quiting the finals (1 t only). The extra T could make difference, like a Z catching, let alone soloing, 2 aces, lol

Edited by player3010587

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11 hours ago, Forcause31 said:

This might not be the most popular post. But did anyone notice that the American player folded with a Z-95 I1 with full health?  Granted he still probably would have lost, but you make the final table and then quit? 

 

I think it's unsportsmanlike and a terrible precedent for a final table. Thoughts?

*In Zap Briannigan's voice*

"Wave the white flag of War"

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13 hours ago, Forcause31 said:

This might not be the most popular post. But did anyone notice that the American player folded with a Z-95 I1 with full health?  Granted he still probably would have lost, but you make the final table and then quit?  Come on, many players fought hard to attempt to get there and then he doesn't even finish the game. FFG should have made him finish the game, miracles do happen after all. I think it's unsportsmanlike and a terrible precedent for a final table. Thoughts?

Really?

Unsportsmanlike?

Do you have any idea how X-wing works?

1 Z95 vs. TWO Imperial aces which move after it, can have double mods if they somehow end up taking a shot.....FLOWN by a very good ace player... 

Yeah, force the poor guy to have his whole squad destroyed on camera...

Edited by Kristofer_Bengtsson

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This comment is especially funny considering he conceded to the same 2 aces that were on the table when he only had his WHOLE SQUAD as when he had an entire ONE Z. Lol. 
 

Another way to look at it: that one Z had been on the table the entire time and shot 1x (? I think) to no effect.  I guess now that Wedge, Jake, Brelynn, and Lt. Blount weren’t gettin in his way....

😆😆😆
 

Excellent flying by both guys.

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4 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I do not think any part of good sportsmanship means you ever have to quit.

Have to? No, but it isn't poor sportsmanship to concede when your opponent has a substantial lead and has time, mobility, hp and firepower stacked squarely in their favor. They made a good decision conceding. 1 bare I1 Bandit Squadron Z-95 has next to no chance against 2 Aces who're faster, more nimble and out gun it.

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1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

I think op forgot this is a win or lose situation pass or fail. Not a win by how much. 

Also I think most people would be pretty discouraged to play one Z vs Vader AND whisper. 

 

Congrats imp aces too. Very proud haha

Vader was dead, it was Grand Inquis and Whisper. Not much of a difference to an I1 though to be fair.

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16 hours ago, Forcause31 said:

This might not be the most popular post. But did anyone notice that the American player folded with a Z-95 I1 with full health?  Granted he still probably would have lost, but you make the final table and then quit?  Come on, many players fought hard to attempt to get there and then he doesn't even finish the game. FFG should have made him finish the game, miracles do happen after all. I think it's unsportsmanlike and a terrible precedent for a final table. 

Your needs are outweighed by those on the final table. When you can make the same accomplishments and be in a similar situation, then you can decide if you continue to fight or concede.

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As I recall, and this was some time ago now so I hardly trust even that, want there a specific call out in the rules or in the guidelines of organized play that said expressly that it was perfectly sportsmanlike to concede?

I want to say this was way back in first Ed. I feel like we discussed it at at length as a tangent to the intentional draw issue back then. Not sure if it ever got carried over even if it did exist.

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My personal view is that it's more honorable to play out the match even if you know you're going to lose. Then again, this is coming from someone who plays online competitive games like Blood Bowl 2 which actively penalize you for quitting a match. But even in a face to face match, sure the odds might be stacked impossibly high against you. But as Han Solo says, "never tell me the odds." I played a game of Risk where I was absolutely going to lose. Nobody would have blamed me for conceding. I had one territory left, and it was East Australia. There was one troop on that territory after struggling to take one territory and get a 3rd card. And after taking back Western Australia my opponent was about to curb stomp me with a 100 strong attack force. With another 100 strong attack force waiting in the wings if one failed. There was zero chance I could win, even though I had a full set (with one of the cards being my sole remaining territory). Only... that didn't actually happen. Instead I kept winning each attack over and over, until he'd lost all 198 of his troops massed for the attack. This left him in a vulnerable state since the game was down to just me and him, so he'd put all his troops (except the 1 per territory required) in his front lines. On my turn I claimed the mass of troops from the card set, which was around 100 since the game had been going on for 9 hours. I then pulled off a come from behind victory on that very turn.

When playing Warhammer 40k I've ended up winning matches that I really shouldn't have due to absurd luck. Things like managing to take and hold the most territory not because I was doing better, but because my opponent couldn't kill my two commanders or command squad no matter what he did. Which ended up weakening his forces just enough that my remaining Tactical Squads were able to contest half the field, and my two commanders were uncontested in the other half of the field.

Or today while playing a match of X-Wing at the local gaming store I was getting completely curb stomped with a revamped list that included the B-Wing I'd just bought. Only for Luke and Ten Numb to miraculously survive multiple turns of repeated range one 4 dice shots with only one hull each and one/zero Agility respectively due to both suffering Structural Damage as a crit result. Thus giving me a chance to reposition and blast his remaining ships with some lucky hits and botched defenses on his part. Point is, when dice are involved anything can happen. Such long odds lucky breaks may be rare. But they can occur. But they can't occur if you give up.

That's just my opinion though. If someone else decides to concede for whatever reason, it's no skin off my back. I wont do it, but I don't care if others do.

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There's no "honour" in Xwing, it's just a game. The only possible interpretation of would be "be a trustworthy bloke who isn't a complete turd", which is about conduct rather than gameplay

There are plenty of scenarios, given the polarizing nature of initiative + just how ****** immobile ships are against higher Initiative, where not conceeding is just a waste of everyone's time

It gets even MORE ludicrous v whisper and Inqy, who can evade atop their focus/forcus and are therefore guaranteed to cancel 50% of whichever miracle shot the  Z gets

So, even in a case where "honour" were at all a thing, this'd still just be pointless. You gotta know when to hold em and when to fold em etc 

You'd need a game like Warmachine, with multiple victory conditions, to ever have "never give up" be a reasonable demand 

If you can't kill the giant robot, you can kill the vulnerable steampunk mage controlling it. If you can't kill the steampunk mage, you can race for the objective

If you can't kill the xwing ace...yeah, yer just boned 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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18 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

Or today while playing a match of X-Wing at the local gaming store I was getting completely curb stomped with a revamped list that included the B-Wing I'd just bought. Only for Luke and Ten Numb to miraculously survive multiple turns of repeated range one 4 dice shots with only one hull each and one/zero Agility respectively due to both suffering Structural Damage as a crit result. Thus giving me a chance to reposition and blast his remaining ships with some lucky hits and botched defenses on his part. Point is, when dice are involved anything can happen. Such long odds lucky breaks may be rare. But they can occur. But they can't occur if you give up.

This is what they had left from their list, including upgrades...

Bandit Squadron Pilot

Vs:

•Grand Inquisitor (behind the Bandit squaddie, Half health)

•“Whisper”•Fifth BrotherPassive Sensors (3hp, Cloaked, Right arc of the Bandit)

For reference, the board state when the decision was made is after Braylen is removed:

Stuff your tissue paper "honor". He played a **** of a tourney, including the Final, and made the correct call.

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As I said, I personally wouldn't do it since I know anything can happen but only if you give it a try. But I don't begrudge others making a different choice.

He could have pulled from behind. Although it was probably unlikely and would require exceptional luck. The safe thing to do is say "Okay, yeah, you're going to win anyway." In my personal opinion the right thing to do is to try. But that's just my opinion. It has no bearing on anything other then my personal choices.

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10 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

That's just my opinion though. If someone else decides to concede for whatever reason, it's no skin off my back. I wont do it, but I don't care if others do.

Quote

FFG should have made him finish the game, miracles do happen after all. I think it's unsportsmanlike and a terrible precedent for a final table. Thoughts?

first, either your personally against concessions or you feel noone should be allowed to concede. 

 

A personal preference to never give up, never concede is an admirable choice. But making accusatory statements of poor sportsmanship about another player's decision to concede when the game state had reached a clear outcome based on your personal bias is exceptionally insulting toward a player and frankly just kicking a dude when hes probably already down on himself for making so far only to come up one game short. 

 

if you feel noone should concede, your simply in the vast minority of players. the game rules and general player-base sentiment is that concessions are a perfectly acceptable choice, and again slandering another player for following tournament legal and widely agreed-upon behavior rather than simply engaging in a more constructive discussion of proposing the rules be amended to remove concessions in line with other game systems is insulting toward another player who did nothing but save a room full of people 15-20 minutes of their lives watching a game that was already over. 

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Honestly faerie1979, despite your feelings about this.  It is not your place to make accusations about someone conceding a match just because they were in a losing position.

That judgement is reserved for the runner up player that conceded and his alone.  It's his match and he can do what ever he likes.  He could have just decided to just intentionally b-line his z95 straight off the board for the loss either way.  Would you still be making these comments at him then?

I Honestly don't know why this bothers you.  Did you have a wager riding on him?

So that when he conceded his match that you lost a small fortune and felt betrayed and cheated out of your money?  

That's honestly the only reason i can see why you'd be so upset about this.

Anyways this whole argument is silly.

World's was great.  Lots of amazing players and interesting fun looking lists that are likely to define the coming meta game.

I'm happy to say that one of the top 8 players is a local player from my neck of the woods.  I've played against his list before so it makes me feel good to know i was destroyed by a list that went top 8 at worlds

 

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49 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

There's no "honour" in Xwing, it's just a game.

Says you.

Next time I am about to suffer an ignominious defeat, rather than allowing anyone to fully witness an embarrassing loss, I'm just going to get up and throw myself on my dice.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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@RynoZero Way to completely misrepresent what I was trying to say. So long as the format rules don't disallow conceding, I have absolutely no problem with others deciding to do so. I think it's a poor decision, but I don't try to impose that on anyone else. What I chose to do is to finish the match regardless of if it appears to be a foregone conclusion. I'm going to lose in a turn or two, and there's little I can do outside of extreme luck to turn things around? I'll press on, knowing that I feel cheated when my opponent concedes and that the person facing me likely feels the same. In any game with an element of randomness that decides critical things such as if an attack hits or is defended against, bonkers things can happen. They will rarely happen. But they'll never happen if you're unwilling to even try. Thus I'm always willing to try.

Yet, at the same time I do understand why someone may chose to concede. In a Magic: The Gathering tourney I had an opponent concede when I played a turn two Island Sanctuary. They knew their deck didn't have any direct damage, fliers, creatures with Island Walk, or ways to remove enchantments. They assumed I was just going to sit there for 51 turns and force them to slowly mill through their entire deck while I never draw a single card. That wasn't my intention at all, and it felt like a hollow victory. Especially when the player conceded a second time in a row, giving me the round, solely because I played Island Sanctuary for a chance to let me recover after taking a beating. I understand why he did it. I may not agree with the reasoning. I may think it's a cowards choice. But I don't begrudge others the right to make that choice. Nor do I sneer at them for not being willing to go down swinging.

Mind you, I have absolutely no horse in this particular race. I haven't been following Worlds at all. I'm not 'hip' to the current "meta". I'm brand new to the game, been playing X-Wing for a little less then a week in fact. And my personal views on conceding have zero bearing on tournament play or what anyone else beyond me chooses to do.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

To resign in an unwinnable position is usually taken as a sign of superb sporting behavior.

For something like Chess where there's no random chance element? Sure. But my experience is that in games like X-Wing there's **** few true "unwinnable" situations. There's situations where it's extremely unlikely you'll win. There's situations where the odds are so long they may as well be impossible. But there's **** few times when the odds are an absolute 0% against you. Which is why I will always play the match to the very end when playing a miniature war game, collectable card game, and the like.

But again, don't mistake my belief which only affects my personal decisions to be something which I try to force on everyone around me. I'm trying to explain how I feel, not force anyone else to feel the same way.

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I'll be honest, that high-horse attitude to conceding is one of the reasons I gave up the OP scene for Armada. I've occasionally had it happen in X-wing too, albeit to a lesser severity. Frankly, it's arrogant.
If I concede a game, I have reasons for it. You honestly don't get to have any input on it. If my reasons are that I'm in an unwinnable position, and continuing is just drawing out the inevitable, then why wouldn't I concede if the end result is the same? If my reasons are that I'm simply hungry and I'm not thinking straight because of it, leading to a bad game, then that's perfectly valid. If I'm simply not having fun anymore, guess what? It's a game, not a matter of actual life or death. I can just peace out and clear my head, and I don't have to worry about it being "honourable" or "unsporting" because - and I cannot stress this enough - I am opting to stop pushing plastic ships around a table. This isn't a Victorian duel.

Similarly, playing against someone who has clearly lost control of the game for whatever reason - whether luck, a mistake, or simply having the wrong plan - but insists on dragging it out by running around the board for 20 minutes is incredibly frustrating to play against, and can honestly mentally have an impact on that person, which is in turn a detrimental thing to put someone through in a tournament unnecessarily and - shocker - therefore somewhat unsporting. Doing it for a turn or two as the time limit approaches to save some points is one thing, but running a clock for 20 minutes is going to earn you no friends, regardless of what you think of conceding. We've all won comeback games, but experience will tell you when that's a possibility, and when it's a fantasy. Sometimes basic maths will slap you in the face with that information. In this case, the Kool Aid guy drove a Mack truck full of burning copies of Field of Dreams through your house screaming "NOPE".

 

Here's the thing. You've literally been playing this game for a week. This is, for the most part, a bloody friendly and helpful community, but posts criticising conceding a very well played world championship game in a massively disadvantageous position are not going to be welcome, or well received. Those posts coming from a background of zero experience, even less so. Concession wasn't something he had to do, but you won't find anyone else in the forum that wouldn't back him on the decision, wish him congrats on a great game, and agree that they'd have done the same.
 

Or, to quote someone who condensed all of the above into two perfect words:

23 hours ago, BlueAce said:

You're wrong

 

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