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32 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

snip

Ok so apparently my use of the phrase "override personality" is what you got hung up on.  To clarify, I don't really care what you want to call it, and I frankly don't care to have a pedantic debate about it.  What I mean when I talk about the chip activating, is it altering the behavior/personality/mood/whatever phrase you want to use, to compel the clone to kill a Jedi.   If "override their personality" gets your boxers in a bunch, then use whatever you want, but we all know what the point of the chip is in the narrative.  Nitpicking uses of phrase is pointless.   

The chip was established in the narrative, to explain why the clones would so easily turn on the Jedi and kill them.  So that they could still have stories about clones, where they are the protagonists, instead of homicidal death machines, that blindly follow orders.  And that is what I am asking about, if that effect, however you want to phrase it,  was ongoing, or temporary in it's nature.    

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7 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Ah, but it's not exactly a lawful order by any stretch of the imagination. It's "exterminate the entire Jedi Order, without trail or court-martial or anything, yes, even the underage Padawans". That's not a legal or moral order, and no good soldier would follow it. 

Daeglan kinda nails this. 

We, the audience, are set up to be of the opinion that it's a bad thing. And wiping out the younglings is pretty shady. We aren't however given any indication that it's not well within the laws of the republic, and we have no information suggesting that there may or may not be legal precedent for such an action.

Baseline though there's some simple facts to consider. The Jedi are not formal republic persons. They act on it's behalf, and can be selected to represent it, but the Order is not under the direct command of the Republic.

Travis' suggests that O66 is set up as an order to be given in the event the Jedi attempt a coup or some other kind of serious assault on the Republic or it's leadership. While Legends, it's not that far fetched, and would imply that the order is indeed legal.

12 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Well, we never saw a clone with an actual personality follow the order.

Cody. He was chummy with Obi-wan, and ordered him fired on without any obvious personality alterations.

12 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

The new season 7 probably will cover Order 66 and shine some light on how this would work.

I honestly hope so.

13 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

When Tup's chip got activated accidentally, he wasn't given any kind of order. He just started hating Jedi, until after a while he snapped and executed a Jedi.

When Palpatine and Dooku discuss the incident they literally refer to it as an activation. And they see nothing wrong with how the clone acted. This was Order 66 working as intended, even with no actual order given, just the chip activating.

And? 

Again, there's a lot of leeway here that we just don't know. We see in the films nothing to suggest an override. But we also don't know how hardcore the programming is, what other orders, if any exist and so on. Maybe the reaction the clone has is a direct relation to their likelihood of resisting the chip? Fox is practically unchanged, Cody is just a little stoned, and Rex announces that Sheev Palpatine is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

But hey, that's kinda the point of RPGs. To toss out other "what ifs" and "how's that works" and run with them.

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1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

however you want to phrase it,  was ongoing, or temporary in it's nature. 

I think THAT's a question of the specifics of O66 (and potentially other similar orders). 

Logically you'd think it would at least have a kill-code just to contingency the contingency. That said, a Duration would probably also be attached, but it's exact time length is kinda fuzzy. Issue there is you can fool people into believing more or less time has passed then it actually has... for O66 specific it's probably not that big a deal. Say 3 days. Other orders might have shorter or longer durations...

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22 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

When Order 66 was triggered accidentally on the Clone Wars show, no order was given at all, the clone in question just became completely murderously psychotic towards Jedi. It's mind control. If Order 66 relied just on clones following orders, it simply wouldn't have worked because clones are people, not droids.

The arc went into some detail how it is programmed behaviour that completely overrides whatever choises the clones would have made given an actual order.

The inhibitor chip had a fault...I forget the reason, but it was causing the chip to fire intermittently before getting order 66.  The chip was specific to following order 66 though, not to following all orders.  A fault in the chip could trigger the result of order 66 before the order is given.  Order 66 itself wasn't a secret though.  The Jedi trained the clone soldiers, they knew of the order, they didn't worry about it though, and they likely thought it was a good idea.

All of the orders were basically manditory.  A clone could refuse them, but it was unlikely due to their loyalty and training.  There were 150 of these orders and order 65 was removing the chancellor from power.  But order 66 was the only one that required an inhibitor chip as Palpy didn't want to risk clones refusing the order out of loyalty, or questioning the order, or even hesitating as even a slight hesitation could give the Jedi a chance to defeat the clones or escape.  Order 66 wasn't even supposed to be a wide spread issue.  It was meant to be used against a single rogue Jedi or a small group of rogue Jedi.

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Posted (edited)

As for the timeline of how long order 66 lasts.  That depends on the order.  Initially order 66 was in immediate thing.  If you are near a Jedi, kill them.

After the fact it would be easy enough for Palpy to issue the order as a standing order.  All clones will kill all Jedi till the end of time.  "From this point forward, Order 66 is established as a permanent standing order in the GAR.  The Jedi have rebelled against the Republic and all Jedi should be considered enemies of the state."  Bing, bang, boom, done.

Edited by kmanweiss

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How long does the effects of order 66 last for (in Cannon)? If a Jedi survives the initial assault and then meets up with clones again the next day, or a month later are they still going to try and kill the Jedi?

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7 hours ago, damnkid3 said:

How long does the effects of order 66 last for (in Cannon)? If a Jedi survives the initial assault and then meets up with clones again the next day, or a month later are they still going to try and kill the Jedi?

At this time, there's no definite answer.

One can probably assume the immediate effects (the chip kicking in and compelling the clone to fulfill the order) are probably short term, anywhere from several minutes to several hours, or at least until the Jedi in the immediate area are terminated.

But for the order itself, namely to eliminate any and all Jedi with extreme prejudice?  That probably becomes a standing order once the Empire is established as the Jedi are deemed traitors to be terminated on sight.  But it's unknown if the clone troopers (who were gradually phased out of the Imperial ranks to be replaced with freeborn Humans) were still compelled by the chip in their head to fulfill the order.

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49 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

At this time, there's no definite answer.

One can probably assume the immediate effects (the chip kicking in and compelling the clone to fulfill the order) are probably short term, anywhere from several minutes to several hours, or at least until the Jedi in the immediate area are terminated.

But for the order itself, namely to eliminate any and all Jedi with extreme prejudice?  That probably becomes a standing order once the Empire is established as the Jedi are deemed traitors to be terminated on sight.  But it's unknown if the clone troopers (who were gradually phased out of the Imperial ranks to be replaced with freeborn Humans) were still compelled by the chip in their head to fulfill the order. 

In the vader comic series, set after RotS, we see two inquisitors and a squad of clones cornering a Jedi. The Jedi tells the troopers, that the Inquisitors were former Jedi, followed by: Execute Order 66.

The clones then begin attacking the Inquisitors, while the Jedi escapes. 

He refers to them as "little more than droida, built to kill Jedi" or similar. 

Edited by Vader is Love

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Resisting the control chip is impossible, but it's worth noting that this system has mechanics for when PCs attempt the impossible: They flip a destiny point just to be able to attempt it (and can't use one to upgrade the check), and roll against Formidable (five dice) difficulty. If you're playing with Clone PCs that still have their control chips, I think the use of the destiny point and the high difficulty does an effective job of underscoring how extraordinary and rare it would be to have a Clone successfully resist the order.

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I'd treat the chip as analogous to a restraining bolt: NPC droids can't resist them but PC droids can do so at Daunting/4P difficulty (no destiny point needed). PC clones can resist the chip/order at the same difficulty (again, no DP needed).

Or if the players aren't keen on the potential for PvP play then skip it entirely. These clones CAN resist it for whatever handwave reason.

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On 10/8/2019 at 11:30 AM, micheldebruyn said:

Ah, but it's not exactly a lawful order by any stretch of the imagination. It's "exterminate the entire Jedi Order, without trail or court-martial or anything, yes, even the underage Padawans". That's not a legal or moral order, and no good soldier would follow it. 

I believe you're incorrect on a few aspects of this one. I can't speak for the Galactic Republic, but I can speak for the American Republic, as both are (arguably nowadays) Democratic Republics. In the American Republic, War Powers are broken between Congress and the President. The President serves as "Commander in Chief" providing him authority over the armed forces, but it gives the right to declare war only to Congress. In this way, the ability to wage war is resident not in one single person, nor branch of government. A Congress, bent on waging war against a foreign power can declare war against them, but without the support of the President, it can be vetoed or left unwaged. Likewise, the President can motion for war to be declared upon a foreign power, but without the approval of Congress, it will not be declared.

In Star Wars, a large part of the Clone Wars was the amassing of "Emergency Powers" by Palpatine, specifically to push through the agendas that he wanted and to erode the power and effectiveness of the Senate. Even if this didn't allow for Palpatine to declare action against any he felt "were a threat to the Republic," the Galactic Senate had approved the war effort against the Separatist Regime. General Order 66 was (per Legends - though Disney states there is no reason to assume it is different in canon until such a time as the wording is changed in a canon source) "In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established." This means that any Clone given General Order 66 directly from the Chancellor himself over a secure and verified line (which it would have to be as no Jedi received the call on their comm line - the same one that was military encrypted) would have NO REASON to believe that the call was false. This is important to the "verified order" argument - this line, in order to use the GAR comm signal, yet NOT be over the Jedi's comm using that same network, must have been an authenticated signal when received. It is also important to the "lawful order" argument in that it establishes the action as a potentially part of the wartime effort. A commander in charge at that moment may not understand HOW the Jedi are working against the Republic, but they have verified orders from the highest command source that they ARE working it.

This is important to your argument of "legal or moral order, and no good soldier would follow it." That specific area is covered under the military Oath of Service and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) Article 90. For those not familiar, the military Oath of Service is as follows, "I,____________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God" while the UCMJ Article 90 states, "Any person subject to this chapter who—(1) strikes his superior commissioned officer or draws or lifts up any weapon or offers any violence against him while he is in the execution of his office; or (2) willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer; shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.” It is further clarified under Elements (2) Disobeying superior commissioned officer, which defines the crime as requiring "(a) That the accused received a lawful command from a certain commissioned officer; (b) That this officer was the superior commissioned officer of the accused; (c) That the accused then knew that this officer was the accused’s superior commissioned officer; and (d) That the accused willfully disobeyed the lawful command." As a final aspect of this complicated part of your proclamation, we need to refer to the definitions of Article 90, which defines "Lawfulness of the Order" as: (i) Inference of lawfulness. An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as the one that directs the commission of a crime. (ii) Authority of issuing officer. The commissioned officer issuing the order must have authority to give such an order. Authorization may be based on law, regulation, or custom of the service. (iii) Relationship to military duty. The order must relate to military duty, which includes all activities reasonably necessary to accomplish a military mission, or safeguard or promote the morale, discipline, and usefulness of members of a command and directly connected with the maintenance of good order in the service. The order may not, without such a valid military purpose, interfere with private rights or personal affairs. However, the dictates of a person’s conscience, religion, or personal philosophy cannot justify or excuse the disobedience of an otherwise lawful order. Disobedience of an order which has for its sole object the attainment of some private end, or which is given for the sole purpose of increasing the penalty for an offense which it is expected the accused may commit, is not punishable under this article. (iv) Relationship to statutory or constitutional rights. The order must not conflict with the statutory or constitutional rights of the person receiving the order."

Whew...

So lets get into the legality and morality of Order 66.

Let's start with the topic of UCMJ Article 90. What we are talking about is permission to willfully disobey General Order 66 under the provisions that allow for disobeying an order. First, we need to establish that Order 66 was, in fact, delivered lawfully under the Elements. (a) That the accused received a lawful command from a certain commissioned officer - Chancellor Palpatine delivered the order himself. (b) That this officer was the superior commissioned officer of the accused - Chancellor Palpatine, similar to the President of the US, was Commander-In-Chief of the GAR, and therefore was THE most superior officer of all of the accused. (c) That the accused then knew that this officer was the accused’s superior commissioned officer - this is where the importance of the comm message comes into play, as the only reason for not knowing Palpatine was Palpatine is if there was reasonable doubt to assume the transmission itself was false. The encryption over GAR transmission lines would be the authentication for this proof. (d) That the accused willfully disobeyed the lawful command - if the clone were to refuse to execute, that would then constitute this element as well. 

Next, let's compare the definitions of lawfulness to General Order 66. (i) Inference of lawfulness. An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as the one that directs the commission of a crime. General Order 66 does require the performance of a military duty or act, specifically the securing of the command structure (GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force), and acting against former members of the command structure who the Chancellor has immediately decommissioned within the General Order itself (and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established). In no way does General Order 66 direct the clones to commit a crime as murder is not a valid option here since the first part of General Order 66 (In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic) identifies the Jedi as enemies of the Republic and thereby meet the definition of "Enemy Combatant" (A person who, either lawfully or unlawfully, directly engages in hostilities for an enemy state or non-state actor in an armed conflict).

(ii) Authority of issuing officer. The commissioned officer issuing the order must have authority to give such an order. Authorization may be based on law, regulation, or custom of the service. Well, Chancellor Palpatine, by definition of the General Order and by the emergency powers given to him by the Senate, does have the authority to give General Order 66. Moreover, as per General Order 66 (and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor)) Palpatine or his duly recognized replacement would be the ONLY one authorized to permit General Order 66 to be issued.

Next let's handle the qualifiers of (iii) before we tackle the dis-qualifiers included. (iii) Relationship to military duty. The order must relate to military duty, which includes all activities reasonably necessary to accomplish a military mission, or safeguard or promote the morale, discipline, and usefulness of members of a command and directly connected with the maintenance of good order in the service. General Order 66 specifically relates to the usefulness of members of a command and directly connects to the maintenance of good order in the service, so we're good there. Now for the provisional disqualifying factors. (iii cont.) The order may not, without such a valid military purpose, interfere with private rights or personal affairs - we're clear here, as maintenance of a secure chain of command (free from hostiles) is a valid military purpose, so interfering with the private rights of the Jedi in question isn't an issue. Next, we talk about the warning included in (iii). (iii cont.) However, the dictates of a person’s conscience, religion, or personal philosophy cannot justify or excuse the disobedience of an otherwise lawful order. This part speaks to your "moral" argument, as Article 90 doesn't ensure a "conscientious objector" protection as a guarantee. If we think of clones in this circumstance, reasonably believing that the Supreme Commander of GAR forces is telling them the Jedi betrayed the Republic and are potentially covertly acting against them, I doubt a single one of them would be able to come up with an objection here. Finally, (iii) says, "Disobedience of an order which has for its sole object the attainment of some private end, or which is given for the sole purpose of increasing the penalty for an offense which it is expected the accused may commit, is not punishable under this article." The first part of this is to prevent commanding officers from ordering a subordinate to relinquish his personal belongings to the officer, or the officer knowingly issuing an order that will get the subordinate into even further violations of the USMJ on purpose. General Order 66 violates neither of these conditions.

What this means is, according to USMJ Article 90, this IS a lawful military order, and, more importantly, specifically refers ONLY to Jedi Officers.

So what about the burning of the Temple and the hunt for the Jedi, you ask? Totally different thing.

If you'll remember, the scenes of Anakin taking the 501st was over cut with Palpatine declaring himself Emperor and the reorganization of the Republic into the Empire. He was issuing this announcement to the Senate and the Galaxy. Those clones that were hunting down the Jedi were hand-picked by Anakin (now Vader) and were most likely chosen BECAUSE they were "morally flexible" and loyal to Anakin's leadership. There's a reason they became known as "Vader's Fist." Those clones who weren't on board most likely would have been eliminated ("defectives" they would have been called), but even more likely was, after hearing the depths at which the Jedi betrayed the Republic by attempting to assassinate the Emperor, overthrow the Senate leadership, and instill their own rule of the Republic, the clones would have rallied to their new Emperor, and focused on hunting down any remaining "terrorists" that may have escaped.

Edited by Kyla

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Sorry for the lawyer talk ... lol ... I might have gotten a little carried away, but it's a really interesting topic, and one that I went through deeply when I was considering my GAR Sourcebook. I talked with a lot of people that actually were in the field under "fluid circumstances" to get an understanding of exactly what you can and cannot consider in that kind of a moment. I mean, think about actually being one of those clones ... after fighting alongside the Jedi for so long and seeing what they could do? Now, you've been given an order (often in the midst of combat) to drop the Jedi because they've gone rogue against the Republic. Would YOU take the time to question it? Get more confirmation it was legitimate? Would you stop to consider what exactly constituted the declaration and if it was Senate ratified to buy yourself some time to consider? Or would you take the Jedi's lack of focus on you, and their distraction with other things to get the drop on them and maybe come out of it alive? I don't think the chips were needed at all - people in those kinds of situations, with seconds to decide and with not clear line of suspicion that they are being deceived, would act. Those few clones that were close to their Jedi would feel different, but clones are exactly like us, they were bred and conditioned to be responsive to orders, and to not question. It's why the ethics of the whole process weighed so heavily on the Jedi, the calls to slavery and mind-control. It's a treasure trove of hard-hitting stories to tell.

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17 minutes ago, Kyla said:

So lets get into the legality and morality of Order 66...

What this means is, according to USMJ Article 90, this IS a lawful military order, and, more importantly, specifically refers ONLY to Jedi Officers.

So what about the burning of the Temple and the hunt for the Jedi, you ask? Totally different thing.

I don't think there's been any serious doubt about Order 66 being a legal order, especially given the parameters you laid out.  History has shown that a lot of immoral orders have been legal, thus the "I was just following orders" defense that gets brought up when the soldier in question is on trial for an action deemed to be a war crime of one form or another.  I've some friends that served in active field duty in the Middle East, and they've all said (without many of them even knowing that they've each said it) that the morality of an order isn't something many soldiers tend to worry about when in an active combat zone and there's hostiles actively trying to prematurely end their tours of duty.

As for the morality of Order 66... we as the audience benefit from the omniscient view and know that Palpatine is the overarching villain of the saga, so for us the viewers it's clear that Order 66 was immoral to the extreme as Palps used it to pull the trigger on wiping out the Jedi Order, later spinning Mace Windu's attempts to arrest him from direct treason as an assassination attempt and a ploy by the entire Jedi Order to seize power for themselves.  Myself, I saw his issuing of Order 66 as a case of "welp, the gig is pretty much up at this point, so I might as well pull the trigger on this whole grand scheme of mine" given that he'd have likely had a hard time explaining how a feeble old man was able to fend off and kill a quartet of senior Jedi Masters all by himself; at least with having given Order 66 he could employ enough deniability and say that he was saved by the timely appearance of Anakin (true from a certain point of view) and the presence of loyal Clone Troopers.

If Palps didn't have an overwhelming supermajority in the Galactic Senate, it's possible (though unlikely) that Senate investigations might have found something fishy about him using Order 66 to kill Jedi officers that were light years away from Coruscant at that time and may well have been unaware of the "plot to assassinate" the Chancellor, thus bringing it's morality into question in-universe, though per the process in place it'd still be a legal order.  We see in today's governments that there are people in positions of authority that will use legal procedures (especially poorly worded ones) to do immoral things for various reasons.

Now, Bail Organa knew that the order would have been immoral, as simply conversing with Yoda and Kenobi (in addition to witnessing the purge of the Jedi Temple) would reveal that Palp's whole spiel about the Jedi conspiracy was a load of bantha droppings, and it's possible that either he let other senators whom he could trust know or those Senators that didn't buy into the cult of Palpatine did their own "off the record" investigations and found that things didn't add up.

I agree that Anakin's storming/purging of the Jedi Temple (which took place prior to Palp's big speech and Padme's remark about "this is how democracy dies") was both immoral and illegal purely in the context of Order 66, seeing as none of the Jedi in residence (especially the kids) were active officers in the war effort, and prior to the 501st's assault weren't taking any offensive action towards members of the Republic.  Now the subsequent hunting of Jedi survivors was (questionably) legal once Palps had secured control, as he simply labeled all surviving Jedi to be traitors to the Empire, not unlike how known serial killers in our world are treated, only skipping over the "attempt to restrain and capture" and going direct to "employ lethal force" that is part of general law enforcement procedure, which again was all legal because the Empire's been set up so that Palps has no restrictions on how he does things as is the norm for a dictatorship.

In Legends, there was also an Order 65 that covered removing the Chancellor from power, but it naturally had a much more convoluted procedure that had to be followed.  I suspect when the Jedi Council reviewed the General Orders, they agreed with Order 66 not having a very complex procedure as they knew full well the danger that a Jedi who had fallen to the dark side posed to those around them.  Which as we observed came around to bite them as the guy access to the command to terminate the Jedi was also their greatest foe, something they were very much unaware of at the time, and it only was towards the end of the war that there was an suspicion on the Jedi's part of Palps not being entirely on the up-and-up.

For the Clone Troopers, in the moment that Order 66 was issued, I don't think morality was a concern, given they were pretty much forced (as per TCW) to comply with the order.  But according to Dave Filoni in interviews relating to Rebels, a large number of Clone Troopers did feel a great deal of remorse and self-loathing for having betrayed the Jedi officers with whom they had served for so long, which in-setting brings up the morality of the order.  And I figure many of them also spent their remaining years wondering if their generals were indeed as guilty as the Empire (who didn't exactly give them a hero's treatment in the months and years following the war's conclusion) painted the Jedi out to be.

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@Kyla You actually talked to people and researched this? Not just stuff you already knew? Wow. I appreciate your dedication to Star Wars, your post was great!

Part of why I like the inhibitor chips is because I love the clones and don't really want to imagine them turning on their Jedi of their own free will (though if I'm being honest with myself, most of the time they would have). The Clone Wars is by my favorite piece of Star Wars media.

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31 minutes ago, Kyla said:

I mean, think about actually being one of those clones ... after fighting alongside the Jedi for so long and seeing what they could do? Now, you've been given an order (often in the midst of combat) to drop the Jedi because they've gone rogue against the Republic. Would YOU take the time to question it? Get more confirmation it was legitimate? Would you stop to consider what exactly constituted the declaration and if it was Senate ratified to buy yourself some time to consider? Or would you take the Jedi's lack of focus on you, and their distraction with other things to get the drop on them and maybe come out of it alive?

Interestingly, in the now-Legends novel Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader (which begins very shortly after the events of RotS, and is a pretty good look at Vader's early days and his evolution into the figure we know from the OT), there was an instance of a group of Clone Commandos (who were known for having a greater degree of free will in interpreting orders than the majority of the GAR's clones) who did disobey Order 66, thinking that the issuance of the order was far too suspect given they were in the midst of a Jedi-led assault on that particular planet, and that it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that the Seps had cracked their secured comm frequencies and sent a bogus transmission (not helped by the Supreme Chancellor now looking very different than he usually did).

Granted, they weren't directly involved in active combat at that exact time, so they did have the luxury of being able to stop and think about the order and question both the legality and morality of it, which wasn't the case for most clones who were out in active combat at the time Order 66 was issued, on top of having the latitude in their conditioning to be more creative in interpreting orders (which makes a degree of sense as they were the GAR's special forces, and thus prone to situations where sticking directly to orders would get them killed).  They did pay for this with their lives when Vader showed up to remand them for their failure to obey, as he didn't care at all for their reasoning and executed them as an example of what happens when a trooper disobeys a direct order from the top.

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Some alternatives might include putting the clones in circumstances that interfere with the activation (weird atmospheric conditions or jamming devices, etc) or that damages their chips. Another would be circumstances that delays their receiving the order or puts them in a position where the obstacles to carrying it out make it effectively impossible to achieve. Another would be to have them find out about the chips and have them removed or deactivated before the order is given.  Or, maybe they themselves choose to hid on a planet with "bad receptions" until they figure out what to do. They will probably be living on the run with their fugitive Jedi friend after this, but hey, PCs are as PCs do. I'm sure others will also have ideas. 

Edited by Vondy

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54 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

@Kyla You actually talked to people and researched this? Not just stuff you already knew? Wow. I appreciate your dedication to Star Wars, your post was great!

I did! It wasn't purely out of my dedication to Star Wars, though I suppose in a way that is accurate, but instead that I feel am ethical responsibility when writing to have a least a learned opinion on the topic. It just so happens that I wanted to write a fan supplement for FFG dealing with the GAR, in a similar vein to what I did when I wrote my guide to the Imperial Military. As such, the topic of Order 66 (and, indeed all the General Orders) was something that required discussion, and part of preparing for that discussion was getting informed of the realities of it. My legal background in this case merely facilitated the knowledge of where to look and previous legal arguments. The whole thing does stem from my love of Star Wars, however, so I suppose I'm guilty as charged!

58 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Part of why I like the inhibitor chips is because I love the clones and don't really want to imagine them turning on their Jedi of their own free will (though if I'm being honest with myself, most of the time they would have). The Clone Wars is by my favorite piece of Star Wars media.

It's really significant in how the Clone Wars show turned the "Heroes" of the Clone Wars into the clones themselves instead of the Jedi as it was presented in the films. You can't help but grow endeared to Rex, Wolfe, Tup, Gregor, Fives and the rest. That series really got what makes Star Wars so special, Rebels to a lesser extent as well, but I think the big difference between the two shows is the clones themselves and their stories.

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1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I don't think there's been any serious doubt about Order 66 being a legal order, especially given the parameters you laid out. 

Actually, the primary part of what prompted me to post this was that micheldebruyn's statement that I quoted I've heard more than a few times over the years. Though that isn't a "serious doubt" widely or canonically, it is a popular opinion, and one that deserves legitimate debate.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I agree that Anakin's storming/purging of the Jedi Temple (which took place prior to Palp's big speech and Padme's remark about "this is how democracy dies") was both immoral and illegal purely in the context of Order 66, seeing as none of the Jedi in residence (especially the kids) were active officers in the war effort, and prior to the 501st's assault weren't taking any offensive action towards members of the Republic.  Now the subsequent hunting of Jedi survivors was (questionably) legal once Palps had secured control, as he simply labeled all surviving Jedi to be traitors to the Empire, not unlike how known serial killers in our world are treated, only skipping over the "attempt to restrain and capture" and going direct to "employ lethal force" that is part of general law enforcement procedure, which again was all legal because the Empire's been set up so that Palps has no restrictions on how he does things as is the norm for a dictatorship.

Yes, though if I didn't make it clear, when I said "totally different thing" I was referring not just to it being unlawful if issued under Order 66 and patently immoral, but also that I don't feel it was issued under General Order 66. Order 66 was clearly issued immediately after Darth Vader was knighted as a Sith, and Palpatine's explanation of "Every single Jedi, including your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi, is now an enemy of the Republic. You understand that, don't you?" was also delivered to the clones on Coruscant. For the Triple Zero clones, this wasn't a big thing, as they were always part of the Chancellor's office and so were loyal to him, but to the 501st, Anakin's new "viewpoint" would be put into the same context. It is through the eyes of this that the elimination of the Jedi Temple would be the first order of the new Empire, and not part of Order 66. It wouldn't be hard for Vader to do either, he can honestly say that he saw with his own eyes Windu and the rest of the council try and assassinate Palpatine.

What's telling to me in this is that ONLY the 501st was utilized. Not the Triple Zeroes (Coruscant Legion) and not the many clone legions of Windu, Saesee Tinn, Kit Fisto or the other Jedi. This implies that it was specifically Anakin and the clones he trusted operating on a "special order" while the rest of the clones that may have issues with it were left out and given General Order 66. Thus, I believe instead that the Jedi Temple massacre was a black operation performed by Anakin and the 501st and later would be characterized as a "police action gone wrong." It would see the story told that the clones and Anakin were attacked on their way arrest the Jedi who were responsible for the coup attempt, and then a conspiracy that was Order wide was revealed in the ensuing aftermath. Younglings would be explained to have been sent to special care facilities that were able to handle the special needs of Force sensitives (which also provides a cover for the creation of the Inquisitorius facilities) and those co-conspirators of the coup were arrested or neutralized. This likewise increases the perceived malevolence and widespread corruption of the Order, and further paves the way for action against a desperate "terrorist cell" in the form of the Jedi Hunt.

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Are we sure the Clones considered the "lawfulness" of the order relevant? Was that a critical element when they were designed, programmed, conditioned, and trained? It seems to me like it was the exact opposite: that they were trained to be highly obedient shock troops who did not question their orders. I suspect the average clone trooper's answer to what a lawful order is would be "a lawful order is any order given by my superiors."

If I'm right about that, then only clones whose design required greater individual freedom of thought and action to achieve mission objectives (special forces, etc), clones whose trauma broke down their conditioning, or whose conditioning was flawed to begin with (an "emotionally unstable" clone) would have such a radical question about the lawfulness of their orders pop into their heads.

Which brings us to the chip. Do we know what it actually does? Does it cause some sort Professor X mind control that "overrides" their personality or does it activate a conditioned response (a "hidden order") that lies dormant in their subconscious? I'm not sure canon actually went that deep into the weeds. The difference between the two is subtle, but important, IMO.

In the first case it is essentially a psychologically external compulsion on the clone. In the latter case we have to ask: how rock solid is that conditioning? Again, what if it were flawed? Or what if combat trauma such as a concussion or even acute PTSD interrupted or undermined it? Or what about MIND TRICK. If its simply activating something in the subconscious what if a Jedi screws with them. "We are not the Jedi you are gunning for."

Edited by Vondy

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I would probably say simply that the chip simply exists as a metaphor to help children understand why the clones ultimately betrayed the Jedi; that there had to be something that made the behaviour compulsory, a way to imagine Rex not turning on his friends in a heartbeat. Their betrayal is just a matter of their very nature, they were born to fight and to obey the order of any superior to the extent that they probably had absolutely zero concept of what an ordinary life looked like to most people; they knew that they were defending a way of life but probably knew little to nothing about what that life entailed. It probably never even occurred to the clone that a more complicated decision was avalible to them, rather that to obey was their entire purpose for being. The Jedi never sensed them coming because "to kill their superior officers because an even more superior officer said so" is a perfectly legitimate command to them. Sure, the Jedi weren't cruel to them but they were just superior officers assigned to them by their komainon overseers and their ultimate loyalty to the man highest up the food chain, the supreme chancellor. By making himself head of state he was ultimately the most uttermost senior official in the republican army and thus his commands could override any other command, thus they obeyed without question, probably without even a second thought as although they wear the flesh of mankind, they are not human as we know it. Their minds are as alien and precise as a machine, admit one with more broad capability then the average battle droid. To me the chip is just the simplified version of all of this, it probably never existed in the clone wars prior to that episode and it probably didn't exist in a meaningful sense after; but it was an easier way to explain to children why the clones ultimately behaved the way they did. They loved their friends, but the chip made them do this. That is easier to explain then "they never ever cared for the Jedi, they only ever followed orders, executing them was just another order."

How would they overcome that conditioning? Psychological distress or an exceptionally strong bond between a clone and it's commander might be enough, if the freaky fish people spend their entire childhoods conditioning them for war then chances are offering them genuine freedom beyond assignments to cultivate their mindset beyond the rudimentary and limited tools they were provided would probably cultivate ample room to question those orders. That might be why someone like the ARC's and various other commando units could; because they had more freedom of mind and movement then the average clone. Issue is to the Jedi the clones were only a tool of war, Obi-Wan was a very typical Jedi who embodied some of their virtues and all their failings; they were dispassionate, aloft and relatively uncaring of the clones, they couldn't afford the time to really get attached to them as after all there was a war on that required every hour of the day. Often the exceptions to those rules were able to sway the clones to discover a skill they were never taught; compassion.

Why didn't the clones shoot Vader? Because they were ordered not to. Again the Emperor by this point is the senior most figure in the army by this point, if he ordered them to put a barrel in their mouth and blow their own brains out, they would do so without hestitation. It is an order after all.

As to why order 66 exists? I either wager the Jedi didn't know or otherwise had no reason to expect it to be malicious. After all if a commander started committing war crimes using the republic's army then it would be for the best if the clones exercised enough independence to turn on and kill that individual if necessary. Note that the order seemed to be selectively given to the clones closest to the leaders; likely the emperor sent the order out and it was routed to only the clones near Jedi. That was how Yoda was able to kill the clones assigned to him and get away; otherwise if it was just a kill a commander command, you don't really want to broadcast across the entire fleet. Though then again; the war was over by that point so perhaps losing the leadership structure wasn't hugely devastating at that point.

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3 hours ago, Vondy said:

Which brings us to the chip. Do we know what it actually does? Does it cause some sort Professor X mind control that "overrides" their personality or does it activate a conditioned response (a "hidden order") that lies dormant in their subconscious? I'm not sure canon actually went that deep into the weeds. The difference between the two is subtle, but important, IMO.

Pardon my lack of detail but in Clone Wars series, there is a clone that attacks their jedi commander and he is taken away. It is revealed that there is a chip in his head that is misfiring and driving him into a psychotic rage to kill jedi. It is clear to me that the chips turn the clones into Manchurian candidates that are mind controlled to kill the jedi when they hear the activation phrase.

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1 hour ago, DarkHorse said:

Pardon my lack of detail but in Clone Wars series, there is a clone that attacks their jedi commander and he is taken away. It is revealed that there is a chip in his head that is misfiring and driving him into a psychotic rage to kill jedi. It is clear to me that the chips turn the clones into Manchurian candidates that are mind controlled to kill the jedi when they hear the activation phrase.

Dooku and Palpatine even call it an accidental activation of Order 66. Orders are given, not activated. And no order was given here. Order 66 is most likely the only thing on that chip. Order 66 is the only reason the clones even exist.

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https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Order_66

Rather than me quoting swathes of this page, you can read it for yourself. Tup is the name of the clone I was trying to think of.

"This chip contained clone protocol 66 which, when activated, would ensure total obedience in the clones and cause them to violently lash out against the Jedi."

So yeah, mind control.

 

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