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Captain Cardinal charge timing.

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(Apologies if this is obvious)

Situation came up in casual play last night: I’ve got Captain Cardinal and 2 FO Ties at Init 1, each close enough to take advantage of the reroll, and each with separate targets. Cardinal has one charge left. First Tie to shoot kills his target. Does Cardinal lose his charge immediately, meaning the other Tie can’t use the reroll, or is the charge lost when the ship is removed from the board, after all Init 1 shots are fired?

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Since both TIEs are Initiative 1, the enemy ship won't be removed until after the second TIE has fired, and as the rules reference states,

Quote

If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed.

So you can use Cardinal's ability for the second TIEs attack.

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In the RR:

A ship is destroyed after it has a number of damage cards that equals or exceeds its hull value. A destroyed ship is placed on its ship card.

• If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed.

Destroyed and removed from game are completely different things.

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11 minutes ago, DaProfezzur said:

In the RR:

A ship is destroyed after it has a number of damage cards that equals or exceeds its hull value. A destroyed ship is placed on its ship card.

• If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed.

Destroyed and removed from game are completely different things.

Correct. And the simultaneous fire rules says that a ship that is destroyed remains on the board until all ships at the attacker's initiative have engaged.

So the destroyed ship remains on the board, and per the rules, Cardinal's charge will not flip until immediately before the ship is removed from the board. Thus Cardinal's charge remains active for the second TIE fighter's attack.

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2 hours ago, DaProfezzur said:

In the RR:

A ship is destroyed after it has a number of damage cards that equals or exceeds its hull value. A destroyed ship is placed on its ship card.

• If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed.

Destroyed and removed from game are completely different things.

They are different things, and according to the line you quoted, the one trigger, resolves at the other timing.


It's dumb and counterintuitive, but it's RAW.

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On 10/4/2019 at 4:10 PM, Maui. said:

Correct. And the simultaneous fire rules says that a ship that is destroyed remains on the board until all ships at the attacker's initiative have engaged.

So the destroyed ship remains on the board, and per the rules, Cardinal's charge will not flip until immediately before the ship is removed from the board. Thus Cardinal's charge remains active for the second TIE fighter's attack.

No, if the ship is destroyed the charge is removed immediately.

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41 minutes ago, DaProfezzur said:

No, if the ship is destroyed the charge is removed immediately.

The ship is destroyed, but any effects triggering from being destroyed (In this case. captain cardinal removing a charge) only happens just before the ship is actually removed (ie at the end of the initiative step)  as per your own quote.

 

So no, the charge is not removed immediately.

 

The current RR rules regarding destroy and removal is quite confusing, and @nitrobenz specifically mentions in in this thread.

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On 10/4/2019 at 10:54 AM, DaProfezzur said:

Destroyed and removed from game are completely different things.

"After a ship is destroyed" and "remove ship from game" are different timings, but the rule stated abilities that trigger "After a ship is destroyed" resolve immediately before the ship is removed. 
So it moves the resolution to a different timing. 

"Destroyed" itself is a game state that, if an ability can trigger differently from. (ie. "If a ship is destroyed...") that would still happen, because its not looking for *after* its destroyed, just for the game state of being destroyed.  Basically the same way that Being in a state of damaged, is different than 'after a ship suffers damage'. 

 

On 10/4/2019 at 1:28 PM, thespaceinvader said:

It's dumb and counterintuitive, but it's RAW.

Yeah, yes it is. :| 

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