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Oni no Pikachu

Courts of Stone

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I have begun the reading of Courts of Stone, and from the small fiction at the beginning of the RPG I have to understand that weddings between couples of the same gender are accepted as normal among Rokugani society.

As far as I know this was not covered in previous lore, just to mention.

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Warning: The following thread will likely contain much arguing and long essays on why individuals described with a particular three-letter acronym completely ruined the setting with a barely significant change and how political marriages are not about love but about babies from both families. These will in turn be answered by much arguing and long essays on why individuals described as having facial hair on an aesthetically unpleasing area of their bodies completely ruined the fandom by discussing a barely significant change and how homosexuality was widely accepted in x culture and y culture. Name-calling and accusations of being paid by George Soros or Vladimir Putin are going to be common, and when Marie Brennan finds out about this she's going to roast someone (probably but not certainly from the first group).

Should you be not be interested in the observation of such phenomena, which internetologists refer to as "flame war", or,  more recently, "internet culture war", we advise you to head back to L5R LCG: Lore Discussion.

Should you suffer from morbid fascination for these phenomena, however, then you are assured to find one here.

Thank you for listening, and have a nice day.

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1 hour ago, 987654321 said:

Warning: The following thread will likely contain much arguing and long essays on why individuals described with a particular three-letter acronym completely ruined the setting with a barely significant change and how political marriages are not about love but about babies from both families. These will in turn be answered by much arguing and long essays on why individuals described as having facial hair on an aesthetically unpleasing area of their bodies completely ruined the fandom by discussing a barely significant change and how homosexuality was widely accepted in x culture and y culture. Name-calling and accusations of being paid by George Soros or Vladimir Putin are going to be common, and when Marie Brennan finds out about this she's going to roast someone (probably but not certainly from the first group).

Should you be not be interested in the observation of such phenomena, which internetologists refer to as "flame war", or,  more recently, "internet culture war", we advise you to head back to L5R LCG: Lore Discussion.

Should you suffer from morbid fascination for these phenomena, however, then you are assured to find one here.

Thank you for listening, and have a nice day.

🤣🤣

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On 9/30/2019 at 3:48 PM, Oni no Pikachu said:

I have begun the reading of Courts of Stone, and from the small fiction at the beginning of the RPG I have to understand that weddings between couples of the same gender are accepted as normal among Rokugani society.

As far as I know this was not covered in previous lore, just to mention.

We knew that already from the GM Screen adventure.  It talks about the local Tortoise Magistrate, her wife and their children.

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Posted (edited)

If I remember correctly, the old lore didn't mention anything about homosexuality except one instance of a certain Scorpion NPC being gay in a adventure module.

 

The new lore has several openly gay characters, at least one who is genderfluid and maybe one who is non-binary (I can't remember if the Bayushi starter character was genderfluid or non-binary).

Edited by MirumotoOrashu

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6 hours ago, MirumotoOrashu said:

If I remember correctly, the old lore didn't mention anything about homosexuality except one instance of a certain Scorpion NPC being gay in a adventure module.

 

The new lore has several openly gay characters, at least one who is genderfluid and maybe one who is non-binary (I can't remember if the Bayushi starter character was genderfluid or non-binary).

Pretty sure it was non-binary as the character was consistently given and used neutral pronouns but I would have to dig out the character sheet to confirm.  I know that the wiki mentions that as a child Kyo would regularly impersonate and play a game of swapping positions with older twin siblings who were a boy and girl.

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Well, in like 90% of cases a given individual's bedroom preferences don't really affect their character or the narrative and since most of the important characters are some degree of landed nobility they're probably going to be marrying for politics rather than personal preference anyway. So this isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. If anything it just gives you more options since now if you want an alliance with another lord but you both only have daughters you can still have a political marriage.

On 10/1/2019 at 11:42 AM, Schmoozies said:

#kakitayoshiisafool

Alright, but can we blame it on some sort of gender confusion.

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2 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

Well, in like 90% of cases a given individual's bedroom preferences don't really affect their character or the narrative and since most of the important characters are some degree of landed nobility they're probably going to be marrying for politics rather than personal preference anyway. So this isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

Substitute "certainly" for "probably". The marriage of anyone with any degree of actual status in Rokugan is a political undertaking, often as part of a series of treaties, agreements, and political deals between clans. In happy cases, the marriage will be a tolerable one. In happier cases, it will actually be pleasant. And in the happiest, and absolutely rarest, both parties will come to love one another, or may even already be in love.

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18 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

Well, in like 90% of cases a given individual's bedroom preferences don't really affect their character or the narrative and since most of the important characters are some degree of landed nobility they're probably going to be marrying for politics rather than personal preference anyway. So this isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. If anything it just gives you more options since now if you want an alliance with another lord but you both only have daughters you can still have a political marriage.

Alright, but can we blame it on some sort of gender confusion.

But why would you arrange a same gender political marriage? It makes no sense. If they cant breed offsrping, the purpose fails. Having characters with different preferences makes sense. having same gender political marriages does not

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34 minutes ago, RafaelNN said:

But why would you arrange a same gender political marriage? It makes no sense. If they cant breed offsrping, the purpose fails. Having characters with different preferences makes sense. having same gender political marriages does not

Depends on what the plan is.  If you don't want to interfere with a line of succession than it actually makes a lot of sense.

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21 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

Substitute "certainly" for "probably". The marriage of anyone with any degree of actual status in Rokugan is a political undertaking, often as part of a series of treaties, agreements, and political deals between clans. In happy cases, the marriage will be a tolerable one. In happier cases, it will actually be pleasant. And in the happiest, and absolutely rarest, both parties will come to love one another, or may even already be in love.

I wouldn't say it's 100% of all cases. Hida Kuon, for example, didn't really marry for any sort of political gain.

4 hours ago, RafaelNN said:

But why would you arrange a same gender political marriage? It makes no sense. If they cant breed offsrping, the purpose fails. Having characters with different preferences makes sense. having same gender political marriages does not

It's not unheard of for a married samurai to get a peasant pregnant and then recognize the resulting child as his own. Since adultery isn't that much of an issue in Rokugan same sex couples could do something similar, especially if one or both of the individuals involved aren't actually homosexual.

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4 hours ago, RafaelNN said:

But why would you arrange a same gender political marriage? It makes no sense. If they cant breed offsrping, the purpose fails. Having characters with different preferences makes sense. having same gender political marriages does not

There can be many political reasons to arrange a particular marriage, that has nothing to do with producing an heir. For example, merging two families, or strengthening ties between them ("families" in this context being bloodlines, NOT "clan families" like e.g. Bayushi, Doji, Yasuki, etc.); or as a means of allowing one clan or family to gain ownership over the lands or holdings of another. And, as others have pointed out, an heir can be adopted into a same-gender marriage. If succession and producing an heir IS important, well, then the parties involved probably won't arrange a same-gender marriage. But if it's not important, then sure, why not?

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13 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

I wouldn't say it's 100% of all cases. Hida Kuon, for example, didn't really marry for any sort of political gain.

Well, yes and no. There may not have been any specific political gain from the marriage itself, but a Clan Champion's most important take-away from a marriage would be an heir. Succession is, on its own, a huge political issue--so much so that it's probably the primary consideration when it comes to Clan Champions. You produce an heir, and then you produce more kids who can themselves be married off for political gain (the son or daughter of a Clan Champion would be a big lever, because of their value as a potential spouse for somebody!)

Oh, the other point I was going to suggest is that not all marriages have to be between clans. Political marriages can also occur within clans, because you can bet there's an entire web of complex, intraclan politics happening that rivals anything going on in the interclan sphere. And, for that matter, heimin and burakumin almost certainly have their own internal hierarchies and politics, with agreements and arranged marriages happening for reasons of wealth and power inside their own communities, too. 

Remember, if you ever get more than 2 people together, you'll have politics happening...

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8 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

Shoju and Kachiko are an intra-Scorpion marriage and it sure wasn't because they liked each other.

According to the old lore it was, wasnt it? At least from kachikos point. 

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Posted (edited)
On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 2:29 PM, DGLaderoute said:

Well, yes and no. There may not have been any specific political gain from the marriage itself, but a Clan Champion's most important take-away from a marriage would be an heir. Succession is, on its own, a huge political issue--so much so that it's probably the primary consideration when it comes to Clan Champions. You produce an heir, and then you produce more kids who can themselves be married off for political gain (the son or daughter of a Clan Champion would be a big lever, because of their value as a potential spouse for somebody!)

Indeed. Adoption-for-heir is all well and good, but for anyone specifically carrying a Founding Kami's bloodline and authority, I suspect there'd be infinitely more pressure for "an heir of their body".

Otherwise the issue of the princes not being up to scratch could have been far easier to sort out.

12 hours ago, Daigotsu Arashi said:

In newkugan all is political correct.


Hardly. It's still massively racist and caste-focused, and anyone questioning the state religion openly is subject to painful summary execution in a variety of innovative ways.

Being a hiemin is still as cruddy a life as ever.

It's just relatively open-minded on the specific concept of Gender.

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Hardly. It's still massively racist and caste-focused, and anyone questioning the state religion openly is subject to painful summary execution in a variety of innovative ways.

Being a hiemin is still as cruddy a life as ever.

It's just relatively open-minded on the specific concept of Gender.

 

Its politically correct on the most polemic subjects only

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