Kandosii Beroya'se OOC

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

I’m running full tilt into the room and at the target using both maneuvers to do so.

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

I’m running full tilt into the room and at the target using both maneuvers to do so.

To confirm, you are using both Maneuvers to move into the meeting room?

Then if you are attacking the "target" you just punched a salesman in the face. Go ahead and post IC.

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

5 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

To confirm, you are using both Maneuvers to move into the meeting room?

Then if you are attacking the "target" you just punched a salesman in the face. Go ahead and post IC.

The salesman is tied up in the chair behind the desk.

[RuusMarev 2,697]

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Ok, boot to the face it is. 
Boot to the face.: 1eA+2eP+2eD 1 success, 1 advantage
 

I’ll calculate damage and spend my Advantage on my next break.

 

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Except you don't even have a target yet. Where are you moving?

[RuusMarev 2,697]

double

 

Edited November 14 by RuusMarev

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

To confirm, you are using both Maneuvers to move into the meeting room?

Then if you are attacking the "target" you just punched a salesman in the face. Go ahead and post IC.

So where’s our target? 

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

So where’s our target? 

You cannot see him, but will find out on his turn (which is just after Ge'tal). You took your two Maneuvers to move to the room, if you didn't punch the salesman you still have your action.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Of course I don’t want to kick the salesman. I want to kick our target right in the face. 

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Of course I don’t want to kick the salesman. I want to kick our target right in the face. 

The target is not in the room. You took two Maneuvers to move into the room. Do you wish to perform an Action?

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The target is not in the room. You took two Maneuvers to move into the room. Do you wish to perform an Action?

If he’s not in the room, why roll initiative?  If we roll initiative we should be able to attack our target. According to your IC post, there was a “flicker of a shadow coming from the open door of an office about five meters down and to the right.” Your words. The salesman is in the chair behind the desk to the left. If Falmok succeeded in the Perception check, we should  have spotted him, that means that our target is down that short corridor to the right, and thus I should be able to attack him. Five  meters is an easy short range in one maneuver, and Engaged range in two.
 

So, no, if he’s not in the middle of the room, Ge’tal wouldn’t just run into the middle of the room, wasting her maneuvers. She’d run to where we spotted him. If that’s where he is, that’s where Ge’tal would be going and attacking. That was my whole plan. Dash in directly to where we saw our target and attack. 

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

If he’s not in the room, why roll initiative?  If we roll initiative we should be able to attack our target. According to your IC post, there was a “flicker of a shadow coming from the open door of an office about five meters down and to the right.” Your words. The salesman is in the chair behind the desk to the left. If Falmok succeeded in the Perception check, we should  have spotted him, that means that our target is down that short corridor to the right, and thus I should be able to attack him. Five  meters is an easy short range in one maneuver, and Engaged range in two.
 

So, no, if he’s not in the middle of the room, Ge’tal wouldn’t just run into the middle of the room, wasting her maneuvers. She’d run to where we spotted him. If that’s where he is, that’s where Ge’tal would be going and attacking. That was my whole plan. Dash in directly to where we saw our target and attack. 

You don't know where he is in the building. You roll initiative because we're in structured time.

The salesman is in the chair behind a desk in the room on the right, I'm sorry I wasn't clear there. It was his shadow you saw.

Falmok's Perception check wasn't for spotting the Barabel, it was looking for a conveyance and was resolved before getting to the building.

So you dash to where you saw movement, but it wasn't the movement you were expecting. Rather than a Barabel, it was someone struggling in a chair.

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

The salesman is very hastily tied, if you want to untie him it'll take your Action, but there's no check.

[RuusMarev 2,697]

Dont worry @Tramp Graphics, Cade will hold the lizard down for you!

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

12 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

You don't know where he is in the building. You roll initiative because we're in structured time.

The salesman is in the chair behind a desk in the room on the right, I'm sorry I wasn't clear there. It was his shadow you saw.

Falmok's Perception check wasn't for spotting the Barabel, it was looking for a conveyance and was resolved before getting to the building.

So you dash to where you saw movement, but it wasn't the movement you were expecting. Rather than a Barabel, it was someone struggling in a chair.

The salesman you said was tied up to the chair behind the desk to the left not in the office to the right. To quote: 

Quote

 

The lights are on inside, and Falmok catches a flicker of shadow coming from the open door of an office about five meters down and on the right. He also marks another office closer on that side, the waiting area and desk on the left, and the door to the rear office behind it.

 

Those were your words. The only desk you ever described in the IC post was the one in the main room to our left. The salesman is tied up to our left. You said we see a flicker of shape moving in the office to the right, and a salesman tied up to the chair behind a desk on the opposite side of the room to our left. The movement we saw was in the office to our right further down. The salesman wouldn’t be able to cast a shadow that far across the foyer. 

The whole point of making a perception check right before Initiative is to spot our foe so we don’t get ambushed. You had us roll initiative right after rolling a perception check. That is typically done prior to an ambush, with Success meaning we spot the potential ambush and can attack as normal without being surprised, and, if we beat our foe’s initiative, we can attack him first. Why would we need to look for a conveyance if we’re already at our location?  We would be looking for the Barabel. Not only that, but, given that Falmok’s check was a Success with Advantage, we should have been able to tell if the movement we saw was the barabel, as opposed to some helpless nook. If it had been with Threat, then yes, I could understand having us mistakes the Salesman for the barabel. 
 

As it stands, we’re going to be successfully ambushed with a surprise attack by our target even though we succeeded in our perception check and I wasted a perfectly good attack roll. 

I’m pretty sure that @RuusMarev was under the same conclusion (correct me if I’m wrong here, Ruus.) that the initiative roll was the start of combat with the barabel. That is also why I asked Ruus if we wanted him alive or not. I needed to know if I should attack with a weapon or brawling. You don’t send Ge’tal in to scout or reconnoiter. You send her in to bust heads. 

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Those were your words. The only desk you ever described in the IC post was the one in the main room to our left. The salesman is tied up to our left. You said we see a flicker of shape moving in the office to the right, and a salesman tied up to the chair behind a desk on the opposite side of the room to our left. The movement we saw was in the office to our right further down. The salesman wouldn’t be able to cast a shadow that far across the foyer.

Yes, because you didn't have eyes on the room to the side so I couldn't tell you what you saw in there. Once you move there and can see in the room, you see the salesman tied up in the chair behind the room's desk. If he was behind the desk in the main room, he'd have been included in the original narration.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You had us roll initiative right after rolling a perception check. That is typically done prior to an ambush, with Success meaning we spot the potential ambush and can attack as normal without being surprised, and, if we beat our foe’s initiative, we can attack him first. Why would we need to look for a conveyance if we’re already at our location?  We would be looking for the Barabel. Not only that, but, given that Falmok’s check was a Success with Advantage, we should have been able to tell if the movement we saw was the barabel, as opposed to some helpless nook. If it had been with Threat, then yes, I could understand having us mistakes the Salesman for the barabel.

The Perception check was to see if you could spot a transport the Barabel may have taken. If you did, you could check to see if the money was in there, or if he had backup, or just make sure he can't hop in and drive away.

It had nothing to do with the inside of the building. The sequence of events makes that clear. If you look at the timestamps, you'll see that Ruus rolled, and then I narrated what they saw in the parking lot regarding the Barabel's transportation. An hour later, I requested that you roll initiative. The next day, I narrated you to the building. Could I have made it more clear? Yes. Are you wrong? Also yes.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As it stands, we’re going to be successfully ambushed with a surprise attack by our target even though we succeeded in our perception check and I wasted a perfectly good attack roll. 

Actually, it wasn't perfectly good. You didn't have a target yet and hadn't asked me the difficulty (besides, it's just a roll. It's not like it cost you anything). Again, the Perception check was unrelated to the interior of the building.

Upon reaching the building, I narrated what you saw. Period. If you wanted more information, you could have asked to make a Perception check then, on your turn. But you, acting appropriately for Ge'tal in the situation, charged straight in at what you thought might be a target, only to discover that it wasn't.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I’m pretty sure that @RuusMarev was under the same conclusion (correct me if I’m wrong here, Ruus.) that the initiative roll was the start of combat with the barabel. That is also why I asked Ruus if we wanted him alive or not. I needed to know if I should attack with a weapon or brawling. You don’t send Ge’tal in to scout or reconnoiter. You send her in to bust heads. 

An initiative roll is the start of structured time, not of combat. Combat starts when the fighting starts. Until then, it's just structured time.

Ge'tal charging in at the shadow, thinking it is a target, is perfect for the character. It just happens to also be a mistake.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Except that there was no description of  anything regarding the parking lot or surrounding area, resulting from his perception check; only a description of the interior of the building once we arrive at the door. You never tell us what we see in the parking lot. You only say we spot something of any importance inside the building, once we reach the entrance to it. That tells me that the Perception check was for the interior, for spotting the barabel, as well as any other related details; Because reading @RuusMarev’s post, and the fact that this was a group perception check,  suggests we keeping our eyes peeled the whole way to the door, and that we were looking for the barabel. Not only that, but he doesn’t say anything about looking for an escape vehicle. Everything about his post suggested that he was keeping an eye out for the barabel and any possible escape vectors, none of which you actually give us. 
 

If you were going to put us into structured time against the barabel, wouldn’t it have made more sense to have us make another Perception roll once we made it to the entrance, before rolling initiative, to see if we could have spotted our quarry, and thus give us an actual chance to engage him without him ambushing us? 

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that there was no description of  anything regarding the parking lot or surrounding area, resulting from his perception check; only a description of the interior of the building once we arrive at the door. You never tell us what we see in the parking lot. You only say we spot something of any importance inside the building, once we reach the entrance to it. That tells me that the Perception check was for the interior, for spotting the barabel, as well as any other related details; Because reading @RuusMarev’s post, and the fact that this was a group perception check,  suggests we keeping our eyes peeled the whole way to the door, and that we were looking for the barabel. Not only that, but he doesn’t say anything about looking for an escape vehicle. Everything about his post suggested that he was keeping an eye out for the barabel and any possible escape vectors, none of which you actually give us.

Look, I'm telling you what happened, how it is, and what my intention was. You think you know those better than me, the GM? Fine. But it doesn't change anything. You are flat-out wrong.

Reread the IC and check your timestamps. You'll find I'm right.

That was at 1:46 PM, 13 minutes after Ruus rolled the Perception check, and resolved the roll. 45 minutes later, I called for initiative and had the characters reach the front door.

14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

If you were going to put us into structured time against the barabel, wouldn’t it have made more sense to have us make another Perception roll once we made it to the entrance, before rolling initiative, to see if we could have spotted our quarry, and thus give us an actual chance to engage him without him ambushing us? 

No. If you wanted to make a Perception check, you could have. You didn't ask to. I told you what you could see with a cursory glance from your position at the door. If you wanted to try and perceive more, you could have asked to make a Perception roll. Once you get to the door, you're in structured time. I had it planned out that way purposely. If you wanted to take more time after getting to the door to carefully look around, you could have done that. You didn't.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Except the @RuusMarev himself said in his IC post right after that,  that we were keeping our eyes peeled for signs of the barabel, sending Arno to block any exits, and the rest of us to find the barabel. That inherently means we’re all actively searching for him. That calls for Perception checks right there. 

 

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

19 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except the @RuusMarev himself said in his IC post right after that,  that we were keeping our eyes peeled for signs of the barabel, sending Arno to block any exits, and the rest of us to find the barabel. That inherently means we’re all actively searching for him. That calls for Perception checks right there.

Tramp, I know what I'm doing, and I know it better than you. You can't see him from the parking lot. Period. Once you get to a location where it is possible, you have entered structured time because he's not just going to wait while you scan the place. That's what initiative is for. One of you could have made a Perception check on your turn, but you didn't. You chose to do other things instead. If Ruus had wanted to make a Perception check, he could have asked to make one.

Ge'tal charged into the office, using both Maneuvers before she fully processed that the Barabel is not in the room. Either her turn is done, or you may take 2 Strain for an Action to free the salesman and ask him for information. That's it.

I am not going to argue this with you any more. My word on this is final. You can post IC, or I can post IC for you.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

F&D CRB page 204 side bar: 

Quote

Characters should determine initiative using the Vigilance skill when combat (or another situation resulting in structured game-play) begins unexpectedly. Two enemies walking around a corner and running into each other would use Vigilance to determine Initiative, for example. Likewise, someone being ambushed would also use Vigilance to determine initiative (and if they ended up going earlier in the initiative order than their ambushed, clearly they were vigilant enough to spot the ambush at the last second). 

Both Falmok and Ge’tal beat the Barabel in initiative. By RAW, that means we spotted him, and know where he is. My choice of action was predicated on that knowledge. 

Secondly, if the barabel wasn’t in the office, I wouldn’t use a second maneuver to engage, if there’s no one to engage. 

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

F&D CRB page 204 side bar: 

Both Falmok and Ge’tal beat the Barabel in initiative. By RAW, that means we spotted him, and know where he is. My choice of action was predicated on that knowledge. 

Secondly, if the barabel wasn’t in the office, I wouldn’t use a second maneuver to engage, if there’s no one to engage. 

Last chance: Are you going to post IC, or shall I?

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

@Tramp Graphics, there was some confusion in the situation based on preconceived notions, and there are some things I could have done a better job clarifying, but here's the deal:

I've already explained why things were the way they were, and I will not get into a long, dragged-out discussion with you. Period.

The Perception check was only to look for a vehicle. You do not know my intentions better than me. Period.

The initiative order is the order in which the characters act. If you cannot see a character, you do not know where that character is. I told you exactly what you saw from the front door. Period.

The initiative order started when you reached the door, and two PCs got a chance to act before the NPC did. Period.

If you had gone "Oh, I didn't realize that was the situation. In that case, I'll spend one Maneuver to move to the door and see into the office. Since I see that the Barabel isn't in there and the shadow was just the salesman, I'll do X instead." Then I'd have gone. "Sure, X results in ABC."

But no. You instead argued, and told me that you knew better than me what my intent was and what I was doing, which is clearly wrong on its face, and then even when I told you your mistake, you continued in your obstinance.

When you try to shove me out of the way, I don't move. I dig in my heels and push back. I do not like pulling rank, laying out ultimatums, or putting my foot down. You make it necessary. When I am GM, I do not yield in arguments. Once you start, that shuts off all chance of changing my mind because I will not give you what you want because that would encourage bad behavior and continued disruption. A request, suggestion, or clarification is far more likely to change my mind or get you your way.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

The two PCs got to act because by RAW, we spot the enemy, we spot our target. My actions are based upon that rule in the book. As GM, you had the responsibility to provide us with our target’s location so that we could act upon that information. Instead you gave us a red herring preventing us from attacking our foe, and allowing him to get the drop on us despite two of us winning initiative. You asked me what my action was. My action was to attack the barabel with a boot to the Face in whichever room he is hiding. That is two maneuvers and an action. The Initiative rules explicitly state that an Initiative (Vigilance) roll that beats the ambusher’s Initiative, means we spot the ambush; we spot the Barabel. 
 

You are giving us information contrary to that rule. If he is not in that room, Ge’tal would not have gone into that room, because she would have spotted him in another room before moving. That is what the RAW says. So where is he? 

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

Actually, I had you roll Cool.

I will post IC for you so that we can move on.

[P-47 Thunderbolt 4,177]

I'll do the Barabel's turn soon.