What happens when a Shadow Effect discards the Defender?

[AllWingsStandyingBy 4,660]

So, this has now come up a few times and I'm not sure how to resolve it:

What happens if I have an ally exhaust to declare as the defender of an attack, and then the Shadow Effect for that attack is Pursued By Shadow (Core) that reads "Defending player chooses and returns 1 exhausted ally he controls to it's owner's hand."  If my defender is the only exhausted ally I control, I assume it goes back into my hand.  BUT, does this mean the attack is now not defended?  Or is the attack still considered defended, and the would-have-been damage that would have been dealt to my ally just whiffs on nothing as the ally "escapes" into my hand?

If the ally returning to hand makes the attack undefended, a further question: What if the attacking enemy has two shadow cards (e.g. Dol Goldur Beastmaster (Core)), and one of them is Pursued by Shadow, which will return the defending ally to my hand, and the second shadow card has an "If this attack is undefended..." clause?  Do shadow cards resolve in any particular order, or are they simultaneous?



Thanks!

Edited September 26, 2019 by AllWingsStandyingBy

[sappidus 531]

The first part of your question is addressed by the RR framework on enemy attacks [6.4.3]:

Quote

If a defending character leaves play or is removed from combat before damage is assigned, the attack is considered undefended.

 

[sappidus 531]

As for the 2nd part, consensus has essentially always been that multiple shadow cards are flipped and resolved one by one. I don't remember a specific ruling on this, but someone here mentions one that implies it:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243469/multiple-shadow-cardseffects

To fully answer, there's probably some syntax stuff you'd have to dig into for the specific shadow effects in question, so if you can come up with a particular pair of cards, that would be helpful.

Edited September 26, 2019 by sappidus

[AllWingsStandyingBy 4,660]

1 hour ago, sappidus said:

The first part of your question is addressed by the RR framework on enemy attacks [6.4.3]:

 

Ugh, brutal! 

Thanks for the answer!

[AllWingsStandyingBy 4,660]

1 hour ago, sappidus said:

As for the 2nd part, consensus has essentially always been that multiple shadow cards are flipped and resolved one by one. I don't remember a specific ruling on this, but someone here mentions one that implies it:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243469/multiple-shadow-cardseffects

To fully answer, there's probably some syntax stuff you'd have to dig into for the specific shadow effects in question, so if you can come up with a particular pair of cards, that would be helpful.

I'm thinking something like Pursued by Shadow and Misty Mountain Goblins (remove 1 progress from the current quest (3 progress if this attack is undefended) on a Dol Goldur Beastmaster.

If PbS flips first, it could remove the defender, which would then mean Misty Goblins remove 3 Progress tokens.  But, if the Goblins' shadow effect triggers first, it would remove 1 Progress (because it is not yet an undefended attack?).

[sappidus 531]

22 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I'm thinking something like Pursued by Shadow and Misty Mountain Goblins (remove 1 progress from the current quest (3 progress if this attack is undefended) on a Dol Goldur Beastmaster.

If PbS flips first, it could remove the defender, which would then mean Misty Goblins remove 3 Progress tokens.  But, if the Goblins' shadow effect triggers first, it would remove 1 Progress (because it is not yet an undefended attack?).

In this case, the order matters—you've got the right of it. MMG's shadow can only be interpreted as an effect that resolves immediately.

This is to be distinguished from Pursued by Shadow & Wargs:

Quote

Shadow: Attacking enemy gets 1 [attack]. (2 [attack] instead if this attack is undefended.)

Now we are in muddier waters. Does Wargs' shadow set up a lasting effect? I say it does*. If so, then the order you flip the shadow cards doesn't matter, as this (encounter card) effect isn't actually calculated for real until framework step 6.4.3—i.e., it is not fixed at the time of shadow card flip at 6.4.2—which is past the time the attack would have become undefended no matter which order you flipped.

(*: Looong arguments have been had about how long shadow effects like the one on Wargs should last. I defer discussion of this except to say that it should certainly last through at least step 6.4.4 of the attack in question, and that wording in the early lifetime of this game often suffers from this kind of imprecision.)

Edited September 26, 2019 by sappidus

[AllWingsStandyingBy 4,660]

Thanks for these insights.

This makes Pursued By Shadows a particularly nasty shadow card, because unless you control and have already exhausted other allies (either to quest or to perform some sort of action), it means the attacking hit unavoidably will end up coming in undefended which can often then be hero-slaying. But over-exhausting allies to have an available non-defending exhausted chump for a possible PbS sacrifice means those allies end up risking damage/death to Necromancer's Reach or the like flipping during the questing phase...

I love and hate how brutal this game can be... heh.

[sappidus 531]

36 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I love and hate how brutal this game can be... heh.

If you're still playing Core/1st cycle, you ain't seen nothing yet in terms of table-flippingly brutal encounter cards… 👹