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In the Captain's Chair - Preview Huge Ship Movement and Damage in Star Wars: X-Wing

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Hey guys. I don't mean to alarm anyone, but the card art for Point Defence Battery seems to be depicting a Quasar-Fire Cruiser/Carrier.

If FFG's tradition of using card art to hint at further expansions is still holding strong, it might be a very good time for us Imperials in the future.

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12 minutes ago, Moff Wibbles said:

Hey guys. I don't mean to alarm anyone, but the card art for Point Defence Battery seems to be depicting a Quasar-Fire Cruiser/Carrier.

If FFG's tradition of using card art to hint at further expansions is still holding strong, it might be a very good time for us Imperials in the future.

u know how big that flobbing thing is. how wide that mofo is? 

its wider than the darn table

it is the table. 

it is the world turtle with the fabric of reality on its back. 

Edited by Blail Blerg

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14 hours ago, Sithborg said:

The C-roc comes with a Turbolaser, so chances are good. 

Well, if the Nantex / Fang fighter is anything to go by it's no guarantee.  Both these comes packaged with Modification upgrades they can't use.

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6 hours ago, Npmartian said:

I mean, it could be fine with some changes. With a single arc, and only getting two attacks if the first one misses? I'm willing to take that.

It also gets range bonus to def and damage at range one is capped at 1. I think it would be fine as well, at the right cost

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12 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

The problem with TLT was that Combo Wing made the damage output very consistent, for a range 2-3 attack with 360-degree coverage that ignored range penalties.

You could probably bring this card back into 2.0 and it wouldn't need many changes. Maybe limit it so that you only get the second attack if the first one misses, but otherwise the single arc, range penalty and adjustable points should keep it under control.

Ignoring the 360 issue, massing TLTs (like 4 y-wings with it) that could consistently deal 8 damage per turn to certain ships was the first problem. 

The best suggestion I've seen to translate TLT to 2.0 is to leave the whole card the same, but exchange the "Attack twice" part with just a double arc turret weapon.
A 3 die, 2-3 range double arc turret that deals 1 damage if it hits.

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41 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Ignoring the 360 issue, massing TLTs (like 4 y-wings with it) that could consistently deal 8 damage per turn to certain ships was the first problem. 

The best suggestion I've seen to translate TLT to 2.0 is to leave the whole card the same, but exchange the "Attack twice" part with just a double arc turret weapon.
A 3 die, 2-3 range double arc turret that deals 1 damage if it hits.

The double arc turret feels wrong, it does not match the way this turret works.

What I would rather do do is something like : if this attack miss, performe this attack again as a bonus attack.
And I would reduce the dice to 2.

That gives you high probability of 1 damage, but the probability of doing 0 is still higher than doing 2.

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Huge ships sooo needed Epic 2.0 upgrade.

-Now Huge ships won’t crumble under one wave of attacks.  

-Potentially devastating volley of attacks. 

-Strong, but LIMITED, buffs to your bombers and fighters  

 

Makes you think twice about your attack run.  

 

 

So so so so excited for Epic.  

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14 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Earlier poster was partly wrong about the extra greens: You get one green for R3, you get an additional green for R4-5. So a B-Wing is rolling 3 greens at R5, not 4.

I mean, that is a lot of green dice for a B-Wing, but I'd much rather leave it up to maneuvering skill than chance. Then again, we're talking epic, which is intended to dispense with some decision granularity in favor of faster gameplay, so I can't oppose it that strongly.

Time for a B-Wing Superlaser?

Yeah, I probably should have said extra green with no s. While I was confused at first, by that point I understand it was just one more green for range 4 or 5.

And at that point, you know I'm actually okay with it from both a theme and gameplay perspective.

 

I don't believe there's any 1 agility ship that has 6HP or less, which means that even under the best possible circumstances (a range 3 shot that rolls all hits while both green dice blank out), you're never going to one shot a ship with it. Meanwhile. you're really unlikely to land a hit on a TIE with 4 green dice, but if you do it just evaporates. Both of those things feel like they fit the fluff. Even a glancing blow from a turbolaser should totally disintegrate a TIE, while B-Wings and Y-Wings are strong enough to tank it. B-Wings especially are supposed to rely on being tough, because they're not that maneuverable. 

On the gameplay side, there's a ton of things that balance it. The first is that should be pretty easy for even B-Wings and Y-Wings to close into the range 1-2 hole, given the footprint of huge ships. Second, the energy cost. So far, we've seen that the Raider recovers 2 energy a turn, and that's probably the ceiling. Or else, if the support ships recover faster, they have a lower energy limit and probably can't equip turbolasers due to the restriction. At 3 energy a shot, that means continually firing the turbolaser will deplete your energy within a couple of turns. When you're also having to spend energy to do things like sit in place and rotate, that means that the number of times you actually fire this thing in a game will probably be pretty low. So the question becomes: it is even worth it to shoot this at your average 1 agility small base? Third, the damage ceiling and range limitations mean you're either really lucky to kill a cheap, low HP high agility ship or you more likely (but still not definitely) hit, but don't kill a low agility high health ship. And this is before you get into the damage sharing potential of wings. 

I think it's pretty obvious that the mechanics around how this actually works are geared around it being a huge ship vs huge ship weapon, which is totally in keeping with the fluff and makes for good gameplay balance. It means youican get this sort of rock-paper-scissors where offensive huge ships like the Raider are really good against support huge ships like the GR-75, but the support ships buff the fighters to make them good against the offence ship. 

 

So in general I agree that spike damage is bad, and can feel really unfair. But this isn't spike damage in a vacuum. There's a ton of stuff you have to be prepared to do to get that sweet 6 damage on a B-Wing. 

Also, huge ships are going to cost a lot in terms of points. Especially the Raider and CR-90. And this turbolaser upgrade probably won't be cheap either.

The reason no one is really running large bases in standard play at the moment is because they have the same guns as their smaller cousins and can't kill enough to make up for taking the place of two ships. 

That's only going to be exacerbated on huge ships. They need to be able to kill small ships at a higher rate proportional to the amount of list they take up. The chance to one shot a fighter or two before they're even in range is probably going to be vital as a reason to actually want to take a CR-90. 

 

Also, I don't think we need a new fancy superlaser card to balance the odds for the B-Wing. You've seen how scary those Precise Hit crit bonuses are now. Proton Torps are already going to be the amazing anti cap ship weapons they're supposed to be. That turbolaser won't be a problem if you're able to offline it within the first couple of volleys. Huge ships really don't have much in the way of shields to get through. ****, a B-Wing at range 1 with Marksmanship can do the same thing for 12 points less. 

This sort of spike damage would be awful on a small ship in standard 200 point games. I'm actually now wondering if it's going to be enough for a huge ship having to contend with swarms of ordnance launchers, weapons disabling crits and other huge ships.

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1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

The best suggestion I've seen to translate TLT to 2.0 is to leave the whole card the same, but exchange the "Attack twice" part with just a double arc turret weapon.
A 3 die, 2-3 range double arc turret that deals 1 damage if it hits.

The TLT came out because there were high Agility ships that had token stacks like crazy.  You needed the multi attack to break through.  It was really a fix card for the game.  We don't have that now and I don't think you need to stick to the double attack ability.   I think just re-invent the dang thing to something like:

3 attack dice - single turret range - R 2-3.     That's it.  No special ability.   It is a 3 die attack at long range.  It can't fire at close range.   There is no turret that can fire at R3.  The target gets an extra die at R3.  It can't fire at close range.   Make it simple.

49 minutes ago, Jedu said:

Is FFG going to launch/update squadbuilder, in which there will be other point values for basic pilots? You know, like Howlrunner or Cpt. Jonus?

I don't believe they need to change points.  Jonus used to work on ALL secondary weapons.  He only works on Ordnance now.  It has to be in R1.  I just don't see Jonus hovering around the rear of a Huge ship to give the bonus.  If so, he should be easy to focus fire on.

Howlrunner will work as a great Wing Leader.  She will pass her ability to all and she is on I 6.  She is still just a Tie Fighter.   You know, I have seen Tie Fighters blank out on green dice, especially if out of tokens.  If a Single Turbo Laser hit her, she could pass off 1 or 2 damage with Wing Leader ability, but that TL would crush her in one shot.  

27 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

I don't believe there's any 1 agility ship that has 6HP or less, which means that even under the best possible circumstances (a range 3 shot that rolls all hits while both green dice blank out), you're never going to one shot a ship with it. Meanwhile. you're really unlikely to land a hit on a TIE with 4 green dice, but if you do it just evaporates. Both of those things feel like they fit the fluff. Even a glancing blow from a turbolaser should totally disintegrate a TIE, while B-Wings and Y-Wings are strong enough to tank it. B-Wings especially are supposed to rely on being tough, because they're not that maneuverable. 

You know, I have seen ships blank out when tokenless, especially on Green Dice.  I think it's quite possible to hit a snub nosed fighter more often than people think.   The large ships have Target Locks, Focus, and Calculate more often.  If you REALLY wanted to hit a small ship...and they roll bad, you can do it.   I don't think it's really the best strategy, as you point out below.  It will be really nice at times.

 

Quote

On the gameplay side, there's a ton of things that balance it. The first is that should be pretty easy for even B-Wings and Y-Wings to close into the range 1-2 hole, given the footprint of huge ships. Second, the energy cost. So far, we've seen that the Raider recovers 2 energy a turn, and that's probably the ceiling. Or else, if the support ships recover faster, they have a lower energy limit and probably can't equip turbolasers due to the restriction. At 3 energy a shot, that means continually firing the turbolaser will deplete your energy within a couple of turns. When you're also having to spend energy to do things like sit in place and rotate, that means that the number of times you actually fire this thing in a game will probably be pretty low. So the question becomes: it is even worth it to shoot this at your average 1 agility small base? Third, the damage ceiling and range limitations mean you're either really lucky to kill a cheap, low HP high agility ship or you more likely (but still not definitely) hit, but don't kill a low agility high health ship. And this is before you get into the damage sharing potential of wings. 

I think it's pretty obvious that the mechanics around how this actually works are geared around it being a huge ship vs huge ship weapon, which is totally in keeping with the fluff and makes for good gameplay balance. It means youican get this sort of rock-paper-scissors where offensive huge ships like the Raider are really good against support huge ships like the GR-75, but the support ships buff the fighters to make them good against the offence ship. 

 

So in general I agree that spike damage is bad, and can feel really unfair. But this isn't spike damage in a vacuum. There's a ton of stuff you have to be prepared to do to get that sweet 6 damage on a B-Wing. 

Also, huge ships are going to cost a lot in terms of points. Especially the Raider and CR-90. And this turbolaser upgrade probably won't be cheap either.

The reason no one is really running large bases in standard play at the moment is because they have the same guns as their smaller cousins and can't kill enough to make up for taking the place of two ships. 

That's only going to be exacerbated on huge ships. They need to be able to kill small ships at a higher rate proportional to the amount of list they take up. The chance to one shot a fighter or two before they're even in range is probably going to be vital as a reason to actually want to take a CR-90. 

 

Also, I don't think we need a new fancy superlaser card to balance the odds for the B-Wing. You've seen how scary those Precise Hit crit bonuses are now. Proton Torps are already going to be the amazing anti cap ship weapons they're supposed to be. That turbolaser won't be a problem if you're able to offline it within the first couple of volleys. Huge ships really don't have much in the way of shields to get through. ****, a B-Wing at range 1 with Marksmanship can do the same thing for 12 points less. 

This sort of spike damage would be awful on a small ship in standard 200 point games. I'm actually now wondering if it's going to be enough for a huge ship having to contend with swarms of ordnance launchers, weapons disabling crits and other huge ships.

I absolutely agree that the 3 Energy cost will limit it's use.  I agree it will be primarily for large based ships to fire at each other.   They will do some serious damage to each other, though.  Woe to any large based ship that DOESN'T have one that fights another that does.   

 

 

Quote

 

19 hours ago, BrotherFett said:

I am dying to know if the C-roc can equip turbolaser. I doubt it has 5 energy. Can anyone get a high def read on the C-roc spread in the original announcment? I'm thinking 3-4. Corsair refit appears to add 1 energy. Here's hoping to 4!

It probably can, but know that the Gozanti has a max 3 Energy as they talked from the live feed.  The C-ROC is very similar.  Just know that if it does have a Turbo Laser, it isn't doing anything else that round.

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2 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Ignoring the 360 issue, massing TLTs (like 4 y-wings with it) that could consistently deal 8 damage per turn to certain ships was the first problem. 

These days, this can be easily limited with a price adjustment where they are too expensive to spam, or simply add dots to the upgrade.

Personally, I like the mechanic of the card and would like to see it make it back into the game somehow.

16 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Generally Talonbane likes his current iteration

normally more (as it works against all weapons) than his 1st edition one:

latest?cb=20150622162809

But the 1st ed version would be hilarious against 2nd ed huge ship weapons :)

This is a pretty cool example of tightening up the language so the card always works as intended. . .

38 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

This sort of spike damage would be awful on a small ship in standard 200 point games. I'm actually now wondering if it's going to be enough for a huge ship having to contend with swarms of ordnance launchers, weapons disabling crits and other huge ships.

It depends on how fast they can repair themselves.

Huge ships are going to live or die based on successful Energy management, and like you said, dumping energy into the turbolaser every round might be a bad idea.

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19 hours ago, Transmogrifier said:

Turbolaser Battery burns 3 energy to fire a single shot, which is more Energy than any ship we have seen so far generates in one turn. It also is shooting at targets that are rolling 1-2 additional green dice. If it's shooting another Epic ship, that ship likely has reinforce + focus/calculate. So while it is an attack that is likely to get through, it's most likely doing 4 damage, not 6. This is a really strong ability but it also is a a big resource commitment with a large opportunity cost.

Indeed. More than anything, it's going to mean that 'patrol boats' like the VT-49 have absolutely NO place in a capital ship fight, though - which is something I'm fine with.

 going "reinforce ahahahahaha your feeble light lasers do nothing against my oh dear god that's a turbolaser battery" [splat] is exactly how I feel a decimator should behave in a massive battle.

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1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

 

Indeed. More than anything, it's going to mean that 'patrol boats' like the VT-49 have absolutely NO place in a capital ship fight, though - which is something I'm fine with.

 going "reinforce ahahahahaha your feeble light lasers do nothing against my oh dear god that's a turbolaser battery" [splat] is exactly how I feel a decimator should behave in a massive battle.

Makes the Falcon at Endor some kind of absolute miracle though... Then again, green dice re-rolls and an evade on 3 dice isn't too bad for dodging even 3 hits, I guess, and it can close the gap super fast with a large ship boost.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

It probably can, but know that the Gozanti has a max 3 Energy as they talked from the live feed.  The C-ROC is very similar.  Just know that if it does have a Turbo Laser, it isn't doing anything else that round.

I suspect the bigger issue with the Gozanti is that it only recharges one energy and one shield per round. For energy that's suuuuuper rough, especially when your hardpoint goes offline...

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I recently got to play Armada against that game's Huge ship, the Super Star Destroyer.  It was tougher than normal ships, could attack more than normal ships, and had numerous other bonuses that normal ships don't have.  It was cheap enough to still include supporting ships, and when it started pounding my fleet, I was thinking, "How is this fair?"

As the game progressed, though, I saw that even that monstrosity could be worn down, and though I lost in the end (accidentally flew off the board), it ended up being a really fun match.

My point is, some of this stuff may seem unfair or OP because we're used to looking at standard ships.  These things will be powerful, but I expect it will be in a fun, challenging way rather than in a frustrating, OP way.

5 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Makes the Falcon at Endor some kind of absolute miracle though...

In fairness, Lando spent a good portion of the fight inside the Death Star and away from turbolasers.

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1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

 

Indeed. More than anything, it's going to mean that 'patrol boats' like the VT-49 have absolutely NO place in a capital ship fight, though - which is something I'm fine with.

 going "reinforce ahahahahaha your feeble light lasers do nothing against my oh dear god that's a turbolaser battery" [splat] is exactly how I feel a decimator should behave in a massive battle.

 

1 hour ago, Transmogrifier said:

Yeah given the pricing on a naked Gozanti, there isn't much of a reason to run a Decimator in Epic. The only thing that's better for the Decimator is the maneuver dial and you're trading a lot of durability and action economy for it.

Well, a cheap ship with lots of hull.   That would require some serious energy output to blast it a few times with Single Turbo Laser.  What does the VT-49 do for all that?  A single turret attack?   It does have 16 hits to go through and would require a number of hits to really put it down.   So, it might not be a bad distraction.

Still, 68 points for a single ship in Epic games is not the best idea.   I find many cheap ships to be the way of things.   Also, ordnance.   So, that Decimator will probably get splatted by the snub nosed ships just as easily. 

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3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I recently got to play Armada against that game's Huge ship, the Super Star Destroyer.  It was tougher than normal ships, could attack more than normal ships, and had numerous other bonuses that normal ships don't have.  It was cheap enough to still include supporting ships, and when it started pounding my fleet, I was thinking, "How is this fair?"

As the game progressed, though, I saw that even that monstrosity could be worn down, and though I lost in the end (accidentally flew off the board), it ended up being a really fun match.

My point is, some of this stuff may seem unfair or OP because we're used to looking at standard ships.  These things will be powerful, but I expect it will be in a fun, challenging way rather than in a frustrating, OP way.

I don't think it will be that bad to take down the Huge ships.  Oh, you will have to focus fire on them and use Ordnance, but you can do it.   When you are down to just a few fighters, yeah, it will be tough, but if you have a lot of snub nosed fighters going for it, it can be taken down.  It will especially be true with Ordnance.   I mean, I can see these things being beasts, but the Energy usage will matter key.   You can probably build a ship to be defensive and repair stuff, but it won't be that good on attack.  Or....build something that can dish out the hurt, but suffer once it starts taking some crits.   

I think these things will be just right. 

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14 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I suspect the bigger issue with the Gozanti is that it only recharges one energy and one shield per round. For energy that's suuuuuper rough, especially when your hardpoint goes offline...

Captain....the main guns are still charging!   

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1 minute ago, heychadwick said:

I don't think it will be that bad to take down the Huge ships.  Oh, you will have to focus fire on them and use Ordnance, but you can do it.   When you are down to just a few fighters, yeah, it will be tough, but if you have a lot of snub nosed fighters going for it, it can be taken down.  It will especially be true with Ordnance.   I mean, I can see these things being beasts, but the Energy usage will matter key.   You can probably build a ship to be defensive and repair stuff, but it won't be that good on attack.  Or....build something that can dish out the hurt, but suffer once it starts taking some crits.   

I think these things will be just right. 

Absolutely.  Whether people go full-swarm or not, presenting many targets will make it awfully tempting to burn more energy than it should.  Lots of hull takes time to burn through, but it also means more crit effects.  Even one can be bad, but having several will be fatal.

I think these things will seem invincible for the first couple rounds, when they're making multiple attacks and healing up completely.  Once their Energy drains and they're down to the bare minimum each turn, however, they'll melt.

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9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

u know how big that flobbing thing is. how wide that mofo is? 

its wider than the darn table

it is the table. 

it is the world turtle with the fabric of reality on its back. 

You made me curious so I decided to figure out the size and luckily, it's easy to find photos with a very comparable TIE bomber to use as scale.

at 1/270 scale, my estimates put it at almost exactly 1 meter wide or the width of a playmat.

at the CR-90's 1/456 scale it's about 0.62 meters which is a bit more manageable, but still well over half the width of a playmat.  It could be fun as a stationary base for a 6x3 game, but it would be a bit unwieldy to fly in a match.

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In looking at the list for the Huge Ship conversion kit is that more or less going by the rule of the "normal" ship conversion kits where there isn't something missing between what's in the conversion kit and what is in the 2nd Edition release of the ship? 

 

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One of the complaints about 1st edition huge ships was the low amount of energy produced each turn.  It looks like 2nd edition will have similar rates of energy production, but the hardpoint weapons cost even more energy to use!  3 for a turbolaser and up to 4 for the point defense weapon.  Between weapons, repairs, (and maybe recharging shields).  It looks like to me there is not nearly enough energy flowing around.

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