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Template "wiggle room"

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A very unusual edge case came up in a game today, that made me wonder about just how much control a player has over their own repositioning abilities.

For reference, I was flying Arvel Crynyd, and I wanted to use his pilot ability to perform a boost, letting me bump into the enemy ship right in one of their firing arcs.  I felt like a straight boost wouldn't have enough distance, so I used the bank boost instead.  It turns out that, once I placed the template (official FFG Hyperspace acrylic templates for reference), I had a little bit of wiggle room to place Arvel.  If I slid him all the way to the left, he actually fit beside the enemy... positioned without a shot, yet still inside the enemy arc, a decidedly BAD situation.  BUT, if I wiggled him all the way to the right of the template, the two ships would be forced to overlap, causing Arvel to back up, ending his quasi-boost-maneuver in base contact, and with a Range 0 attack option.

So the question becomes, with that wiggle room created by "Advantage templates," who gets the final say of positioning?  If the ship can fit anywhere within the wiggle space, must it go there?  Or can the ship executing the boost elect to fail the boost, if it becomes advantageous to do so?

In the end, I accepted that the boost could be completed, therefore it needed to, using the same criteria as a Barrel Roll... that a player must execute the barrel roll if any of the three positions fit, even if that position is disadvantageous.  What I should have done is also declared that my ship was still at Range 0, that the wiggle room granted me enough play in the final positioning, to guarantee that at least the enemy couldn't shoot me back.

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This came up for me as well last weekend, the wiggle room was the difference between a boost fitting or not. The easiest solution I guess is to line up the middle line of the template with the middle line of the ship cardboard. This cancels any variance in width between templates used in the game and between template and ship base.

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hmm... that's an interesting question. i believe that if you fit, you fit, you cannot choose not to fit if you do fit. how ever, there is always this little golden nugget from page 15 of the RR, under range.

"◊ Although rare, it is possible for a ship to move in such a way that it is at range 0 of another ship (in physical contact with it) without having overlapped it."

or, you cannot choose to fail the boost action and trigger arvels replacement effect if you can fit. you can still boost into range 0 in the scenario you described, though. it would have been perfectly legal. the wiggle room would've let you do just that.

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Sadly, we ran into this at our local store and with the rules that are currently available, there is not thing really to go by stating ships have to be "dead center" at the end of the template. In fact, the only thing the rules stat is that the ship must fit between the guide pegs. It only in overlapping does it say your follow the guide line on the template. 

I would state that if you have a player taking advantage of this, it is very bad sportsmanship and ask that you both use one set of templates. 

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19 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

bad sportsmanship

I wouldnt go that far. Even the cardboard templates included with the core set have some wiggle room so its abit unfair to say using that is "bad sportsmanship". The 3rd party templates I have actually fit more snugly and dont have that wiggle room. As you say, if players really have an issue with that, both and use the same templates and have that advantage (or in my case, remove it). 

Its part of the issue that is manufacturing tolerances that's part of the game that we really cant do much about and have to accept it as part of the game.

In this instance tho, i think the ruling that "you cant choose to fail an action". So if hes got wiggle room, where one way fails it, and the other does, he cant opt to move it so it fails. He has to place it so it performs/resolves normally. 

Edited by Lyianx

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5 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

Remember in a game of millimeters...

knocking a model halfway across the board because you’ve got 2 hands holding 3 ships... 

😩

I literally flung my lambda half way across the mat in a tournament with a well time dorsal fin slap. 

Luckily it didn't matter too much in regards to game state.

Also butterfingers with a range template right onto a 5 SF formation. Wow.

If it fits it fits 

10 hours ago, meffo said:

"◊ Although rare, it is possible for a ship to move in such a way that it is at range 0 of another ship (in physical contact with it) without having overlapped it."

I would be on this though.

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2 hours ago, Sk3tch said:

I literally flung my lambda half way across the mat in a tournament with a well time dorsal fin slap. 

Luckily it didn't matter too much in regards to game state.

Also butterfingers with a range template right onto a 5 SF formation. Wow.

I was judging at a hyperspace trial, when players called me over to verify arc/range/obstruction/something, between two ships.  One of them reached for a laser for me to use, then dropped it... taking out both the attacker and defender, among other ships.  I just kind of put my hands up and said, "Um, I don't think I can verify arc anymore..."

Thankfully, both players laughed it off and played on, re-setting the ships as they best remembered (I only caught a glimpse of the board before THE INCIDENT).

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16 hours ago, LTuser said:

Yea/  Even with me placing washers on the bottoms of the bases to give them weight, there's still times i knock one a little, when moving other ships.

I did this too! Along with them being magnetized, if I bump the model the tend to just swivel.... but I still manage to nuke the game state regularly 🙄🙄

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On 9/20/2019 at 4:14 PM, TasteTheRainbow said:

We always roll a die to make these calls because there’s no acknowledgement that the wiggle room exists.

Thats a pretty hardcore way to deal with manufacturing tolerances.

Who cares? Both players use the same templates, get the same effect. Just let it happen. "Wiggle room" only really makes a difference in like .05% of cases anyway. I hope you dont get bent out of shape when a ship or obstacle bump happens.. wow.

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On 9/19/2019 at 7:50 AM, JBFancourt said:

I did this too! Along with them being magnetized, if I bump the model the tend to just swivel.... but I still manage to nuke the game state regularly 🙄🙄

I wonder.  Do those who use those 'Furniture thinggies' (those rubber bases) have as much 'wiggle', with bumping ships?

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10 hours ago, LTuser said:

I wonder.  Do those who use those 'Furniture thinggies' (those rubber bases) have as much 'wiggle', with bumping ships?

Ill be honest, i kinda hate when people do that to bases. In order for those to work like they want, they have to protrude down abit further than the base itself, so in effect, the base is never actually *on* the mat.

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Huh. I've always been under the impression that so long as the template is flush with the ship base when you first put it down, and when you place the ship on the other side, the maneuver has been completed legally. Even at a hyperspace trial last weekend, somebody (maybe even the TO?) said something regarding using the wiggle room to your advantage, as it's just a part of the game.

I'm not saying you should wiggle the templates back and forth until you get exactly the desired position, but as somebody who flies very tightly around asteroids sometimes, I see no issue with placing the template as far to the right as you can, if it will help. And sometimes you'll still bump/overlap and you've just got to accept that graciously, and it's not a big deal.

I mean, it's just a game.

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1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Ill be honest, i kinda hate when people do that to bases. In order for those to work like they want, they have to protrude down abit further than the base itself, so in effect, the base is never actually *on* the mat.

So what, may I pursue? As they are stock version, the X-wing bases hardly offer any traction on anything but the mousepad-like mats not every player / FLGS can afford on top of all of the miniatures. 

The "enhanced" bases may not lay flush down on the board but at least coughing in their general director doesn't cause the figures to slide. 

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Technically, legally speaking, they are only allowed to add weight. But thats tournament rules. Some TO's could argue that adding those cabinet liners (the material i believe LTuser is speaking of, and what ive seen most used) when added, "alter the size or shape' of the base (makes it taller).

It really depends on how thick it is. If you can get it to sit flat on the surface after adding that stuff, you should be ok. But ive seen it on their pretty thick where it actually can slightly add "more" wiggle room during maneuvers than normal tolerances give.

*shrug*. Really it just comes down to whos playing and the TO.

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I wonder if anyone has tried filling in the bottoms of the bases with clay/sculpey or something to that effect? You could spread it into the recess, scrape it completely flush, then score (crosshatch) the clay before it dries for added traction. This seems like the perfect solution. Added weight, slide resistant and zero altering of any base dimension(s). 

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On 9/18/2019 at 11:37 AM, meffo said:

◊ Although rare, it is possible for a ship to move in such a way that it is at range 0 of another ship (in physical contact with it) without having overlapped it."

This happens quite often to my games: wiggle-room with the templates, accidentall micro-movements of ships by getting stuck on protruded canons, coughing-around of ships without some kind of anti-slip under their bases, ...

And sadly often enough it matters!!

We do not have a default procedure.

Mostly one player just steps back (it’s a game after all).

 Or (especially with Arvel) we go by 'you can’t fail a barrel roll if at least one position fits'.

Funny thing: this being at range 0 often helps. We agree on one candy for both players (eg the maneuver fits BUT no shot because range 0).

 

* its complicated *

 

 

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10 minutes ago, K-2SO said:

I wonder if anyone has tried filling in the bottoms of the bases with clay/sculpey or something to that effect? You could spread it into the recess, scrape it completely flush, then score (crosshatch) the clay before it dries for added traction. This seems like the perfect solution. Added weight, slide resistant and zero altering of any base dimension(s). 

I use a rubber mat. Cut to size, apply plenty of glue, place flat on a table, put weight on it and let dry. It doesn’t stick out, you can easily push the ship across the mat; but if you apply pressure it sticks. 

 

So so basically your solution but with anti-slippery rubber.  

Edited by Tellonius

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