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Lightningclaw

Now that LL has been out for a while, any insights on the new classes?

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Just curious now that there’s been time for people to really get into the classes.

There was a lot of discussion at the time of release, but the community hadn’t really had the Soul Reaper and Elementalist on the table much yet.

Edited by Lightningclaw

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52 minutes ago, rugal said:

 I have a few time already, maybe 2 campaigns as a standard class and 2 times hybrized as a Heretic and a Trickster

Thanks for the reply. What do you think of the Trickster? Back when it was announced, I recall you saying that the 2xp skill “Now You See Me” seemed crazy strong.

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"Now you see me" is stupidily too strong, indeed ! Should be 2 fatigue and exhaust at least, since it is just better than the defend from the knight, since you can spam it, teleport, and all.

But some others skills are far too strong too and some really weak

 

The Crusader is really disapointing : Divine light is troublesome in many quest, but, since it is only usable few per quests, it is not so strong and does not worth 3 xp as written, Zealous aura is bad thought at the first place, since if you are strong enough to kill ennemies, you don't need the heart recovery and then, since you loose the healing effects of the healer should be some sort of healing thing, on top of that, it needs to be activated each turn, sometimes does not work, and all, and Righteous is better but 2 xp is too much.
In short, not a good class, and since I've waited this one from long, I'm really really upset.

The Lorekeeper is the new "best" class for my friends and players, Ancient remedy offers a 3-5 health boost and discarding a condition is a top skill, and All-knowing allows so much stupid combos ... and finally, Carefull balance is a also a top skill. You don't even need the other class, in fact ...

The Elementalist is a real good class, but maybe a bit strong, and the first choice to hybrid class, since only the accessory needs a magic weapon to be used. Elementals cards should all be locked to be usable after an attack, otherwise, the elementalist can do so much things just for few fatigues ...

The Soul reaper is, as worded, a bit weak. Loosing ALL tokens from being defeated is a bit punitive, and having them in standard play can be really hard so frustrating to lose them all. Goods ideas, but almost all too weak to be really playable as is, and should usually be a good hybrid choice

The Avenger is good, but nothing stupid, and I think that class is really good the way it is (even if Iron Man does everything betters ;) ), and maybe his "death from above" is a bit too expensive in xp, fatigue and tokens to be usable, technically, it cost you 4 or 5 XP to be usable (usually 6) and discarding tokens from a card that lose them all is really hard to activate then, because using the tokens from Vengefull smite, since they are harder to gain, is more difficult.

The Raider is good, but Close the gap is really too strong, and should have "action, 2 fatigue", because, again, in standard play, you can cumulate this with too much action, feats, and others, to create broken results.

the Ravager is totally broken ! Momentum played on whirlwind and the hero gains something like 22 movement points, Charging assault is good, I think, but should be rewrote so you cannot stack movement from fatigue, but Vicious throw by "adding" speed to the throw allows strike to absurd distance. A Berserker looks like a passive vegetarian next to him ... Ridiculous

The Truthseer is good, nothing really attractive, but fine, maybe a bit weak since Premonition is nothing really impressive easy to avoid.

The Herectic is a bit weak too, except the stupid combo (Arcarne healing + Unity = When the hero gains 1 fatigue from an attack, for example, of the luth, then, as long as the test of Unity pass, the hero recovers all his fatigue and as much health), he is a bit weak, his Forbidden arts is great with familiars, but too much limited in space range and usually does not work and the "dicarding condition" part should be extended to all heroes.

Edited by rugal

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I've had a good amount of play experience with Lost Legends now. After trying the classes as written I really wasn't happy with them.

There are a large number of problems with this expansion not present in content previously released for Descent that to me demonstrate a lack of play testing. They include: 

- infinite attack loops (All-Knowing + Bottled Courage), and infinite healing loops (All-Knowing + Focused Insights + Soothing Insights)

- ability timing problems with no clarification or FAQ answers as of yet (e.g. Elementalist skills Tide and Blaze)

- cards like Divine Light and Galvanize not clarifying whether the hero tokens placed are removed between encounters or between quests

- poor mechanics for traditional game such as Soul Reaper losing all their essence and becoming a powerless healer when knocked out (a trivial task for a determined Overlord) and having no means to gain essence if no monsters perish. The Soul Reaper also appears to be balanced around the fact that in Lost Legends the monsters apply tons of conditions thanks to various activation bonuses. This gives the Soul Reaper lots of essence fuel via the Mirror of Souls and Blight Extraction. This is all well and good in Lost Legends, but the Soul Reaper is completely starved vs. an Overlord with brains who can simply employ tactics that don't involve conditions.

- many cards missing the "even while this card is exhausted" test, when it should be present

- cards with broken power level compared with other effects in the game, such as Righteous, which gives an extremely powerful effect typically reserved for Act 2 weapons, relics or heroic abilities and affecting the entire party with infinite range and no activation cost, or Grasp + Nature's Embrace allowing the Elementalist to stun entire monster groups without an action or test.

- cards which should have a numerical cap on their effect to having no cap (such as rugal's example of using Whirlwind in combination with Momentum to move an absurd numbers of spaces, and Vicious Throw allowing a character to throw Melee weapons with a ridiculous +8 range, out classing even the most powerful magical bows and dedicated marksmen)

- cards which should have a range limit on their effect not having a range limit (e.g. Death from Above allowing a hero an unprecedented ability to teleport an infinite number of squares and perform an attack)

- abilities not being tested in general for quest interactions, such as Gust and Storm's Fury allowing you to move any figure, not just monsters and hero figures, thus allowing the Elementalist to reposition quest NPCs to make encounters impossible for the Overlord or trivial for the heroes (e.g. moving the non-monster figure Tyrus around in Blood and Betrayal Encounter 2A so that he may never escape the map)

The power level in general is just all over the place (including the previously mentioned Now You See Me) and in my opinion the designer who created these classes doesn't play a lot against human Overlords. This to me is evident by many of the design choices, such as the ability for the Elementalist to reposition monsters via the aforementioned Gust and Storm's Fury when compared with the closest equivalent skills of Vortex and Gravity Spike which require dedicated actions to use, high fatigue cost, limit of 2 spaces, pre-placed images/stones, and restrictions as to how the figures can be repositioned.

Due to these problems, I wrote a balance patch which attempted to address all of them and I reprinted the expansion using MakePlayingCards.com. The result has been pretty good at my table - we are now able to enjoy the expansion. The Soul Reaper is a competitive healer in a traditional campaign once he doesn't lose his essence on defeat, isn't reliant on conditions for fuel, and can gain a bit of essence during downtime of a quest when monsters have pulled back.

The Elementalist without the ability to effortlessly reposition monster forces and mass stun everything feels a lot more balanced but still fun and effective to play. The hybrid classes feel a lot better too - I'm particularly enjoying the 'aura' mechanic added to the Crusader as it feels like a fresh way to use abilities that hasn't been in the game before (i.e. Paying the cost and exhausting an ability card up front and then refreshing it and getting the reward later once a condition is met)

Edited by Charmy

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Indeed, I don’t think there will ever be a rebalancing attempt that will satisfy each player’s individual tastes and opinions...

However, if even some of the changes are helpful and improve the play experience for others, particularly given LL’s issues, I’m happy to share them.

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7 hours ago, Charmy said:

Indeed, I don’t think there will ever be a rebalancing attempt that will satisfy each player’s individual tastes and opinions...

However, if even some of the changes are helpful and improve the play experience for others, particularly given LL’s issues, I’m happy to share them.

But we are agree on some. The things I don't like is about "balancing" cards you dont play just because it is "not attractive".

We, as players, have tested and played all before any balancing and that's à big difference !

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I would most likely only incorporate the range limits on certain abilities like Death From Above and your Grasp changes.

I do admire all the work you’ve put into the patch.

It’s incredibly impressive and shows what could have been if FFG had just reached out to the community for the last physical content for the game.

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Don't forget this fun combo...Lorekeeper/Disciple Leoric. With All-Knowing, Prayer of Healing, Divine Fury and Armor of Faith he can cast his heal on Ravager/Berserker Tinashi with Momentum, Charging Assault, and Whirlwind.

Assuming Leoric gets zero surges to recover fatigue during his turn, he can still likely cast Prayer of Healing 5 times on Tinashi. That gives Tinashi an additional 5 yellow dice on her next attack this round, and an additional 5 brown dice in her defense pool until the start of her next turn.

Tinashi can then take a move action to gain 4 move points, spend 3 of them to power Charging Assault, fatigue move up to 4 spaces if needed, and trigger Whirlwind to attack all adjacent monsters for weapon dice plus 5!!! yellow dice of damage, plus an additional 3 damage.

Even with the Berserker starting weapon, that could be 20 points of damage, each to all adjacent monsters (20 to one, 10 to all the rest if using Road to Legend app). Minimum damage would still be 7, but you would need to roll 1 heart on blue, 1 on red, then only a surge on all 5 yellows. Highly unlikely. Average minimum is more likely in the 10-12 damage. With a starting weapon.

She then gains movement points equal to the number of total damage suffered to all monsters damaged in the attack. Which is probably enough to do a few laps around the entire dungeon before putting herself in position to be the target of any remaining monsters left in the round, with her gray + 5 brown defensive dice.

Edited by Kaaihn

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When I play with Lore Keeper I just exhaust All-Knowing. I truly believe if the game was seriously still in development, that's what the card should have said. I mean, the fact they say "unexhaust" instead of "refresh" just shows the disconnect with the other 99% of the game.

I'm currently running a Nerekhall RtL Campaign with Valadir on Avenger/Bard. I chose this combo for a few reasons. Feat + Smite is almost a guaranteed +5/Pierce 2. Bard is the best for hybridization because for 0 XP you can get a heal and 2 ways to recover fatigue. I plan on going all XP in the Avenger tree, but right now I only have Vengeful Smite and Holy Champion. This class is good, but not any more OP than things you could've done before LL. I also have a Knight and Leoric of the Book. My characters don't really take a lot of damage to get Vengeful Smite that stacked. And it still requires you to be in 3 spaces. You also don't get anything on your attacks or your damage taken. So, good and fun, but not that strong.

I'm using Elementalist too. I know that he's much stronger in traditional D2e than RtL, but it's definitely a top tier RtL Mage class with Runemaster. My issue isn't too much with the 4 elemental skills, but I feel the auxiliary skills are too strong. Recovering 2 fatigue every time you exhaust 2 elemental cards, re-rolling misses, refreshing a elemental card..those skills pushed it into the next tier.

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