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Sunny Bounder, once per attack?

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Or no limits!?

Sunny fires, rolls 2 blanks, adds 3rd blank. Uses lock to reroll all 3, rolls into 3 hits, adds 4th hit.

Yes/no?

The ridiculous edge case that prompted my uncertainty on this was suggested by my boy. Sunny with HLC, (or R1 bullseye AB), and a lock, rolls 4 hits naturally, adds 5th hit. Being a greedy so-and-so, he doesn't stop there. He uses the lock to reroll that 5th hit into another hit. Then uses her ability again to add a 6th.

Preposterous circumstance for sure, but still. Would it theoretically work?

 

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Rules Ref, p2

"Once Per Opportunity
Many abilities are restricted to occur “once per opportunity,” which means they can be resolved only one time during the specified timing window. For
example, if an ability occurs “At the start of the Engagement Phase,” this ability can only be resolved once at the start of each Engagement Phase.
As another example, if a ship has the ability “While you perform an attack, you may reroll 1 attack die,” it may resolve that ability once during each of its
attacks." 
 

 

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56 minutes ago, Bort said:

Rules Ref, p2

"Once Per Opportunity
Many abilities are restricted to occur “once per opportunity,” which means they can be resolved only one time during the specified timing window. For
example, if an ability occurs “At the start of the Engagement Phase,” this ability can only be resolved once at the start of each Engagement Phase.
As another example, if a ship has the ability “While you perform an attack, you may reroll 1 attack die,” it may resolve that ability once during each of its
attacks." 
 

 

latest?cb=20180914111134

Sunny specifies 4 separate timings. Defense roll, defense reroll, attack roll and attack reroll. 

"Timing

There are several terms that are used to indicate the specific timing of an effect:

Before: The effect resolves immediately preceding the timing specified.

At the start of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step. The effect triggers before anything occurs during that phase or step.

While: This term is often used in combination with multi-stepped game effects such as an attack, an action, or a maneuver. Although less specific than the other timings, this term is used to narrow down when the ability is resolved during the round. Additional verbiage is required to identify when exactly the effect is applied.

For example, in the context of an attack, if the ability rolls additional attack dice, the ability triggers during the Roll Attack Dice step. If the ability modifies defense dice, the ability triggers during the Modify Defense Dice step.

At the end of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step of ship's activation. This effect triggers after the normal effects of that phase or step have occurred.

After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified."

So yes, she can be used more than once during an attack.

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Many thanks @Bort and @Hiemfire.

The once per opportunity is where I suspected it fell down, but the breakdown on timing windows, in addition to opportunity text, seems to point clearly to what I hoped.... Sunny Bounder is glorious :)

Add Autoblasters for 32pt of pure value!

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14 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

So yes, she can be used more than once during an attack.

Respectfully, I disagree.

Sunny triggers "While you attack", which is the exact wording on the example given in the rules ref, which then goes on to specifically state that it comes down to once per attack.

I know its different from the specific example, which uses both "While you attack" and "reroll". And "reroll" can only happen once per attack.

Sunny says: "While you attack" and "after you roll or reroll" which can happen more than once.

But I still think that the "While you attack" is the opportunity timing window. And thus the ability only happens once during this opportunity.

 

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9 minutes ago, Bort said:

Respectfully, I disagree.

Sunny triggers "While you attack", which is the exact wording on the example given in the rules ref, which then goes on to specifically state that it comes down to once per attack.

I know its different from the specific example, which uses both "While you attack" and "reroll". And "reroll" can only happen once per attack.

Sunny says: "While you attack" and "after you roll or reroll" which can happen more than once.

But I still think that the "While you attack" is the opportunity timing window. And thus the ability only happens once during this opportunity.

 

As written form of Sunny's ability: "While you defend or perform an attack, after you roll or reroll your dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result."

Long form of Sunny's ability:  While you defend, after you roll your dice, while you defend, after you reroll your dice, while you attack, after you roll your dice, or while you attack, after you reroll your dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result.

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I'm with @Bort on this one:  Sunny can only trigger once per attack or defense.

  1. "While you defend or perform an attack" is the timing window of the effect.
  2. The "Once Per Opportunity" rule locks her ability in, to once per timing window.  You can use it when she rolls, or when she rerolls, but not both.
  3. She *CAN* definitely use the ability once every time she attacks, and once every time she defends.

 

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1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

As written form of Sunny's ability: "While you defend or perform an attack, after you roll or reroll your dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result."

Long form of Sunny's ability:  While you defend, after you roll your dice, while you defend, after you reroll your dice, while you attack, after you roll your dice, or while you attack, after you reroll your dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result.

I see your interpretation:    while (a or b)   VS   while a or while b.

But I still feel the "OR" part doesn't give you 2 opportunities. It just allows you to trigger the ability either after the initial roll OR after a re-roll, but not both.  The ability opportunity window is still the "while you attack" or the "while you defend" part.

According to how you read it, should you run Sunny alongside Serrisu she could trigger twice on defense as well.   Roll 3 evades, add a forth (sunny), then reroll one with serissu rolling evade again, and adding a 5th evade (sunny again).

I simply don't see it that way.

 

 

*Edit.   If it said:  "While you defend or perform an attack, after you roll AND after you reroll your dice, if you have the the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result."  then I would have agreed that it gives 2 separate opportunities.

But the use of OR to me makes it a choice which to use during your one opportunity "while attacking". Not both.

Edited by Bort
Clarification.

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6 hours ago, Bort said:

And "reroll" can only happen once per attack

Thats actually false. 

Rerolls can happen multiple times so long as you have un-rerolled dice to do it. 

Fire-Control System gives 1 (read one) reroll. Lone Wolf/Predator also give 1 reroll. Target locks let you reroll any number. Any of these can be on one ship and mechanically, they trigger separately. So you can use your reroll from FCS, and see the new status of the dice before deciding to use the reroll from Lone Wolf/Predator on another die. If you do, then you've rerolled twice.

Its just most of us tend to count the total number of allowed re-rolls we have, and reroll them all at once for expediency. But mechanically (and probably in more tournament like settings) they *should* be declared and resolved separately. 

Also, for reference on the Once Per Opportunity thats being quoted...

Quote

As another example, if a ship has the ability “While you perform an attack, you may reroll 1 attack die,” it may resolve that ability once during each of its attacks.

.. is a bit ambiguous. While i do think that the *intent* for Sunny is she can only trigger once per attack/defense, and that the 'roll or reroll' is an option of ether/or and not both, the rule above is more cut and dry than Sunny's wording. It only has  "reroll" and is specifically restricted to "1 attack die". So its easy to look at that and say "yeah, obviously only once". 
 

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46 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Thats actually false. 

Rerolls can happen multiple times so long as you have un-rerolled dice to do it. 

My statement was for the given example, which allows 1 dice to be re-rolled. And since no dice can be re-rolled multiple times it's the given example in the RR (unlike Sunny) is clearly boils down to once per attack.

But you are correct. Multiple re-roll effects can happen.

 

As a total aside, but something I came up against trying to figure out Sunny. 

junkit.jpg.2cdb37e1e3e0d677da331c9db6e6c7e8.jpg

Is Boba Fett's re-roll a single action, taking multiple dice. Or is it multiple effects, one for each enemy ship in 0-1?

 

Say for example I shoot and I roll Hit, Focus, Blank.  And I have a Focus token, and 2 enemy ships in R0-1.

Can I then pick up the blank first. And re-roll it.

Then depending on the result choose to keep or continue re-rolling other dice.

If it's an EYE, I spend my focus. 

Or if it's a HIT I can then choose to either spend the Focus token, or gamble and re-roll the eye result.

 

I have always just counted the number of ships in R0-1. Pickup up dice up to that number. And re-rolled them. Basically one Opportunity to re-roll some dice.    

But I think Boba has seen some more high level tournaments than Sunny, so maybe there is some clarity in this case.  

 

Maybe sometimes we overthink things.  :) 

 

 

 

 

As for the original issue. As a Scum player I would be happy to be convinced that Sunny can happen more than once. But as things stands right now I'm not.  

But clearly there are people that agree and others that disagree.   Go FFG writers.  :) 

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2 minutes ago, Bort said:

Is Boba Fett's re-roll a single action, taking multiple dice. Or is it multiple effects, one for each enemy ship in 0-1?

Single effect. I see it much like a math equation

"While you defend or perform an attack, you may reroll x dice. (where x=# of enemy ships at range 0-1)"

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4 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Single effect. I see it much like a math equation

"While you defend or perform an attack, you may reroll x dice. (where x=# of enemy ships at range 0-1)"

Which is exactly how I answered Sunny.

While (A or B) do...    hence, single effect.    :) 

 

*Edit.  I agree on your answer to Boba btw.

If the wording is changed around: "While you defend or perform an attack, for each enemy ship at range 0-1 you may reroll 1 of your dice."  I would have interpreted it as multiple effects.

Just word order change and a new meaning.  Technical writing is a pain. 

 

Edited by Bort

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2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I find Finn’s ability and Sunny’s ability similar in timing and opportunity. 

I believe it’s once per attack or defense. However you have two different windows of WHEN to add the modification. 

Hrm.

I kind of want to expand upon this (with fancy COLORS!), because I don't think Finn and Sunny are similar.

  • Finn Pilot's text: While you defend or perform an attack (TIMING), you may add 1 blank result, or you may gain 1 strain token to add 1 focus result instead (EFFECT).
  • Predator's text: While you perform a primary attack (TIMING), if the defender is in your [bullseye arc] (CONDITIONAL), you may reroll 1 attack die (EFFECT).
  • Finn Gunner's text: While you defend or perform a primary attack (TIMING), if the enemy ship is in your [front arc] (CONDITIONAL), you may add 1 blank result to your roll (this die can be rerolled or otherwise modified).
  • Sunny's text: While you defend or perform an attack (???), after you roll or reroll your dice (???), if you have the same result on each of your dice (CONDITIONAL), you may add 1 matching result (EFFECT).

On Finn pilot, there's a pretty simple (While--TIMING)/(You May--EFFECT) construction.  Finn Gunner and Predator have slightly more involved (While)/(If-CONDITIONAL)/(You May), but there's clearly nothing interfering with the timing.

Sunny might be different.  There is a (While--???)/(After--???)/(If)/(You May) which possibly sets up a different timing window.  Seems like the "after" could be viewed more like part of the "if"--not so much a new timing, but a condition, like arc restrictions.  In this case, Sunny would be (While--TIMING)/(After--CONDITIONAL)/(If--CONDITIONAL)/(You May--EFFECT) and once-per-attack.  I think it's a sound interpretation, but not the interpretation I think is best.

I think it's also possible to interpret the "after" as more like part of the "while" and creating a different kind of timing.  A lot of effects in this game are "after" effects.  "After you execute a maneuver, you may do something."  This would trigger once per maneuver, even if there are multiple maneuver steps.  Likewise, I think a similar "During the Activation Phase, after you execute a maneuver, you may do something" effect would trigger once per maneuver with multiple maneuvers.  I'd see the "during" in that text as only indicating the "after" trigger would not happen if you executed a maneuver in some other phase.  Along these lines, I see the trigger in Sunny not being the same as "While" with Finn or Predator, but instead "After."  If the key timing on Sunny is After, it would trigger after any time you roll or reroll the dice, and the "while" moves in with the "if" part.  I kind of think of "while" more like "if such and such firing arc" rather than constituting a timing or opportunity. (While--CONDITIONAL)/(After--TIMING)/(If--CONDITIONAL)/(You May--EFFECT)

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I kind of want to expand upon this (with fancy COLORS!), because I don't think Finn and Sunny are similar.

Very nice break-up. 

Unfortunately doesn't bring us any closer to a conclusion, but does bring me closer to seeing both points of view.  Thanks.

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i'm going to chip in with something. regardless of the wording (after you roll), sunnys effect is a dice modification and when attacking or defending, dice modification only happens during the modify dice step (which the great fix and clarification of han solo supports).

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5 hours ago, meffo said:

i'm going to chip in with something. regardless of the wording (after you roll), sunnys effect is a dice modification and when attacking or defending, dice modification only happens during the modify dice step (which the great fix and clarification of han solo supports).

This is true, but dice can be modified multiple times during that step, so I don't think it swings things one way or the other.

I can see it either way now, but neither clearly. I will simply ask the TO before a tournament or find a consensus before a casual game on this, as it seems a bit of a can of worms.....

And I shall be crossing my fingers that multiple uses will be allowed :D

I'm very glad I asked the question here 1st. Thanks for the contributions.

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"While you defend or perform an attack, after you roll or reroll your dice" is equivalent to "after you roll or reroll your dice while you defend or perform an attack".

Since A) the second grammar pretty clearly makes each roll & reroll a separate trigger, and B) the "while you defend or attack" grammar is also what FFG would have used if they wanted to change her ability from all rolls (1.0) to combat rolls only (2.0), I favor the "she can be used multiple times" ruling.

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If multiple rerolls works, sunny can get up to 10 evades in 1 roll:

Sunny with Stealth Device defends at R3 through a rock against an Andrasta Firespray torp/missile with Zuckus crew and Saturation Salvo, and has Serisu and 2 ships with tactical scramblers nearby obstructing the attack too). She rolls 6 evades (3 agility, 1 obstruction, 2 scramblers) . Then adds one with her ability as they're all evades (7). The Firespray triggers Zuckuss, and she rerolls an evade into an evade, and adds another (8). Then the same with Saturation Salvo (9), and serrisu (10). 

Can anyone get higher? 

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Keeping in mind (if multiple rerolls are allowed) the more dice she adds, the more progressively unlikely it will be to trigger her ability. 

 

3 hours ago, player2072913 said:

Sunny with Stealth Device defends at R3 through a rock against an Andrasta Firespray torp/missile with Zuckus crew and Saturation Salvo, and has Serisu and 2 ships with tactical scramblers nearby obstructing the attack too).

Except nobody in their right mind would target her if they are firing through two medium/large ships OR really another other option other than her with that many dice. 

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Well, in this case, I'm on the side of @Hiemfire that Sunny Bounder may trigger her pilot ability up to twice in one attack, regardless of the actual effect.

I've seen @Bort mentioned "Once per opportunity" above, and do agree that should be obeyed, and I think the confusion comes from the explanation of "Opportunity" and timing from the text.

Respectively, I'd like to determine "opportunity" equals to the actual time window, rather than the words used in the text which make us feel confused.

To solve the question out, just let's analyze the time windows in one attack and compare how abilities of 3 pilots: Finn, Boba Fett, Sunny Bounder, will work.

  • Finn Pilot's text: While you defend or perform an attack , you may add 1 blank result, or you may gain 1 strain token to add 1 focus result instead.
  • Boba Pilot's text: While you defend or perform an attack, you may reroll 1 of your dice for each enemy ship at range 0-1.
  • Sunny's text: While you defend or perform an attack, after you roll or reroll your dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result.

Here are time windows as I understand that a(n) attacker/defender has in one attack:

  1. The player rolls dice;
  2. The opponent modify the dice;
  3. The player modify the dice.

It is clear to us that it is only possible for Finn and Boba to trigger their pilot abilities in time window 3, while it is possible for Sunny to trigger her pilot ability in time window 1 or time window 3 - of course same results are required as the precondition. In other words, Sunny does have 2 opportunities in one attack to trigger her ability.

I hope this explanation did not skip too much steps and does make sense.

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On 4/9/2020 at 11:06 AM, muzhyou said:

Well, in this case, I'm on the side of @Hiemfire that Sunny Bounder may trigger her pilot ability up to twice in one attack, regardless of the actual effect.

I've seen @Bort mentioned "Once per opportunity" above, and do agree that should be obeyed, and I think the confusion comes from the explanation of "Opportunity" and timing from the text.

Respectively, I'd like to determine "opportunity" equals to the actual time window, rather than the words used in the text which make us feel confused.

To solve the question out, just let's analyze the time windows in one attack and compare how abilities of 3 pilots: Finn, Boba Fett, Sunny Bounder, will work.

  • Finn Pilot's text: While you defend or perform an attack , you may add 1 blank result, or you may gain 1 strain token to add 1 focus result instead.
  • Boba Pilot's text: While you defend or perform an attack, you may reroll 1 of your dice for each enemy ship at range 0-1.
  • Sunny's text: While you defend or perform an attack, after you roll or reroll your dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result.

Here are time windows as I understand that a(n) attacker/defender has in one attack:

  1. The player rolls dice;
  2. The opponent modify the dice;
  3. The player modify the dice.

It is clear to us that it is only possible for Finn and Boba to trigger their pilot abilities in time window 3, while it is possible for Sunny to trigger her pilot ability in time window 1 or time window 3 - of course same results are required as the precondition. In other words, Sunny does have 2 opportunities in one attack to trigger her ability.

I hope this explanation did not skip too much steps and does make sense.

interesting, but no. since it's an ability that modifies dice, it happens during the respective modify dice step, for attacking or defending. it does not have several timing opportunities to occur, no. that being said, this has not been properly clarified yet.

M3-A_Bounder.png

i'm more curious whether the ability could trigger several times during the modify defense dice step, as in first from having the results and then again after rerolling the results and ending up with the same results.

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48 minutes ago, meffo said:

interesting, but no. since it's an ability that modifies dice, it happens during the respective modify dice step, for attacking or defending. it does not have several timing opportunities to occur, no. that being said, this has not been properly clarified yet.

M3-A_Bounder.png

i'm more curious whether the ability could trigger several times during the modify defense dice step, as in first from having the results and then again after rerolling the results and ending up with the same results.

Yup, Sunny's ability is an ability that modifies dice, and the time window when it can trigger is the key that we are talking about.

In the text, we find "after you roll or reroll your dice", which means it may be triggered "after you roll your dice" - during the roll attack/defense dice step rightly before the (opponent) modify attack/defense dice step, or may be triggered "after you reroll your dice" - during your modify attack/defense dice step, which is definitely not a continuous time period with your roll attack/defense dice step.

That's why I prefer to say Sunny could trigger her ability twice in one attack.

Besides, I think the answer to the question you are curious about is no, she cannot trigger several times during the modify defense dice step, because the "Once per oppotunity" rule and her modify dice step is a continuous single time window, which means there is only one oppotunity for her to trigger her ability once.

 

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