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PhantomFO

Assorted Nantex questions

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Just wrapped my first game using the bugs, and some questions came up regarding its tractor use. Are the following statements correct?

1) If a Nantex still has a tractor token from Pinpoint Tractor Away, then further tokens from a source like Tractor Beam or Shadow Caster won't do anything. You can't be moved again if you already have the Tractored status.

2) If a Nantex takes a tractor token from Pinpoint Tractor Array, it must rotate it's turret to a different arc. The Rotate action is not optional.

3) If a Nantex takes a tractor token and gets rid of it through Ensnare, it becomes eligible to become Tractored again, complete with the forced boost and barrel roll that comes with it.

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1) Correct

2) The action is not optional no.   I was actually under the impression that the turret can still stay where it is.  In other words you use the rotate action, but you re-select the arc where it currently is. 

 But upon further checking the rules:  
Rules ref: "it rotates the turret arc indicator to select any other standard arc."   

*Edit. To clarify. Gaining the tractor token is optional. Ie you may or may not use Tractor Array.   But after gaining the token, moving the arc is not.

So yeah, now I believe you HAVE to do the rotate action as part of TA, and you HAVE to move your arc.

3) Yup.  Hence Tractor-jitsu.  :) 

Edited by Bort

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6 hours ago, Bort said:

2) The action is not optional no.

Sorry, but why?

I've been trying to get clarification on this, but so far everyone just says this "just because".  But nobody has been able to tell me a rule that overrides this rule on pg 3

Quote

A ship can choose not to perform an action during the Perform Action step or when granted an action

The nantex ability, as i read it 'grants' a rotate action when you gain a tractor token. So by this rule, it seems to me, you can choose not to perform that action. If this is not the case, then please, show me the rules to back it up, because id like to know.

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13 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

The nantex ability, as i read it 'grants' a rotate action when you gain a tractor token. So by this rule, it seems to me, you can choose not to perform that action. If this is not the case, then please, show me the rules to back it up, because id like to know.

Pinpoint Tractor Array: You cannot rotate your [Turret Arc] to your [Rear Arc]. After you execute a maneuver, you may gain 1 tractor token to perform a [Rotate] action.

Nothing about this ability grants a rotate action when you receive a tractor token. You are paying a cost (Receiving 1 tractor token) to then take the [Rotate] Action.

Page 2 of the Rules Reference under Paying Costs: A ship can pay a cost for an effect only if the effect can be resolved.

If you want the Tractor Token, you have to be able to perform the [Rotate] Action (So no stress) and you must perform, rotating to point at a different arc.

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Ok, what i meant was:

The entire thing is optional.

BUT, if you choose to gain the tractor token, then performing the action "rotate" is no longer optional, and also moving the arc isn't.

 

@Innese explains it correctly above.

Edited by Bort

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2 hours ago, Innese said:

Nothing about this ability grants a rotate action

 

"to perform a [Rotate] action".....

and how is this not granting an action?

 

2 hours ago, Innese said:

A ship can pay a cost for an effect only if the effect can be resolved.

That only reinforces my point.

"The word “can” is used to mean “has the capacity to.”"

2 hours ago, Innese said:

and you must perform

Nothing in the rules says you *must* perform it. Everyone is saying this without any reference other than that's how they think it should work. I'm merely playing devils advocate here and using current rulings to suggest actually performing the action may not be required (but i DO agree it must be *possible* to perform the action in the first place, that alone fulfills the "if the effect can be resolved" rule).

Saying they must is like saying if you coordinate a ship, it MUST perform an action of some sort, which is also technically and mechanically untrue. It would be totally wasteful to say "im coordinating this ship, but its not performing an action", but it is completely legal to do because, again, a ship can opt to not perform an action when granted an action.

To have it work as you are suggesting, the ability should instead read "may gain 1 tractor token to perform a [Rotate].", removing the keyword "action".

So again, im still not seeing anything written in the rules that say an action must be performed if a cost is paid. Only that the action must be *possible* for the cost to be paid.

[edit]

To be completely clear. I AGREE that the ability SHOULD force you to rotate once you pay the cost. I honestly do.. But ive been hunting for written proof that it actually does force you to do it. Because i know somewhere down the line, if we dont address this now, it will cause a debate later in a tournament or something. But all of the reference ive found on it seems to indicate the opposite. So i hope you understand im not trying to start an argument here, just to make the ability absolutely clear.

Edited by Lyianx
clerification on intent.

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3 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

"to perform a [Rotate] action".....

and how is this not granting an action?

You've completely taken this out of context. The full line was: Nothing about this ability grants a rotate action when you receive a tractor token. You are paying a cost (Receiving 1 tractor token) to then take the [Rotate] Action.

The ability does indeed provide a [Rotate] Action when you pay the cost, which is receiving a Tractor Token via the ability. Getting a Tractor Token from any other source will not let you [Rotate].

5 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

That only reinforces my point.


"The word “can” is used to mean “has the capacity to.”"

"Can" only appears in the rules reference. It in no way appears in the actual ability of the Nantex. Under your reading, even then, the lines in the rules reference would simply be:
A ship has the capacity to pay a cost for an effect only if the effect can be resolved. Which still means that you are still only able to pay the cost if you resolve the effect.

 

Tl;dr: To pay the cost, you must be able to perform the action. If you pay the cost, you must perform the action, as otherwise the effect has not been resolved.

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4 minutes ago, Innese said:

A ship has the capacity to pay a cost for an effect only if the effect can be resolved. Which still means that you are still only able to pay the cost if you resolve the effect

Um.. you missed one...

A ship has the capacity to pay a cost for an effect only if the effect has the capacity to be resolved.

You missed the 2nd "can", which is what im highlighting. So your second bit.

 

"only able to pay the cost if you resolve the effect"

you completely removed the check on if it has the capacity to resolve it or not. Your just saying 'you're forced to now'.

If thats the rule you are looking at, im sorry, i dont see how that *forced* you to perform the action. Again, im sure this is *probably* the intent, but i hope by now you see my point in how players would argue against that intent, and have grounds to do so. I'm afraid the rule under paying costs just isnt definitive enough to make that clear. Maybe they need to add a bullet point or something that says "If a cost is paid, and and effect can be resolved, it must be resolved."

Thats my point.

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Just now, Lyianx said:

Thats my point.

Lets put a nail in this coffin.

Pinpoint Tractor Array: You cannot rotate your [Turret Arc] to your [Rear Arc]. After you execute a maneuver, you may gain 1 tractor token to perform a [Rotate] action.

Lets look at the word may in the ability of the Nantex.

Rules Ref, Page 2, Use of May, Can, and Must:
The word "may" is used to mean "has the option to." For example, an ability that says "At the Start of the Engagement Phase, you may perform a [Barrel Roll] Action," means that a ship has the option to perform an action, but can also decline.

Okay, so we know the Nantex has the option to do what comes after the may in its ability after it executes a maneuver. We know that the entire ability at this point is optional; no one is going to force you do trigger the ability after you execute every maneuver.

Now, lets look at what the ability doesn't say:
...After you execute a maneuver, you may gain, 1 tractor token, if you do, you may perform a [Rotate] Action.

This seems silly right? Well lets look at Jake's ability:
After you perform a [Barrel Roll] or [Boost] action, you may choose a friendly ship at range 0-1. That ship may perform a [Focus] action.

Jack clearly gives the target of his ability a may so that it can choose if it wants to perform the [Focus] action or not. The Nantex does not.

 

Now I'm going to lunch.

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I could not find this in the RR. FAQ or Forum. The rules reference states that a tractor token can cause a ship to overlap an obstacle but there is nothing about if it can make a ship overlap (bump) another ship. If you cant place the ship while its being tractored does it just fail and stay put or does it move back the 1 template until it just touches the other ship?

 

Its been too long since I have used tractor tokens.

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12 minutes ago, SILENT FURY said:

I could not find this in the RR. FAQ or Forum. The rules reference states that a tractor token can cause a ship to overlap an obstacle but there is nothing about if it can make a ship overlap (bump) another ship. If you cant place the ship while its being tractored does it just fail and stay put or does it move back the 1 template until it just touches the other ship?

 

Its been too long since I have used tractor tokens.

You cannot overlap another ship with a barrel roll or boost regardless of source.

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On 9/14/2019 at 2:51 AM, PhantomFO said:

3) If a Nantex takes a tractor token and gets rid of it through Ensnare, it becomes eligible to become Tractored again, complete with the forced boost and barrel roll that comes with it.

For the record, according to the new RR, v.1.05, this is no longer correct. You may only reposition the First time you are Tractored in a turn.

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