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Seventh fleet gunner interactions

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7th gunner has built in limit of 4 dice max, but how it interacts with Ric Olie and Calibrated laser targeting? What is the order bonus dice are added. Can you choose order to add range bonus, 7th fleet and dice from Ric or CLT?

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1 minute ago, Redblock said:

7th gunner has built in limit of 4 dice max, but how it interacts with Ric Olie and Calibrated laser targeting? What is the order bonus dice are added. Can you choose order to add range bonus, 7th fleet and dice from Ric or CLT?

Unclear. Opinions are divided based on whether it is perceived that 7FG caps the total number of dice rolled in the attack, or the total amount of dice at the time the ability is used.

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Calibrated Laser Targeting definitely works since you are adding a focus result after rolling dice.  7th Fleet Gunner only restricts the number of dice rolled, not the number of final dice results.

 

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Ric is a bit more unclear.  Some people like to think that the restriction is time sensitive and you can add additional dice after, others think it is an overall limit.  I'm not sure what the community consensus is currently, or if there is one.  It's probably best decided with your opponent before hand or ran by a TO at an organized event.

 

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1 hour ago, Redblock said:

7th gunner has built in limit of 4 dice max, but how it interacts with Ric Olie and Calibrated laser targeting? What is the order bonus dice are added. Can you choose order to add range bonus, 7th fleet and dice from Ric or CLT?

My take on this which is in the thread Ryfterek linked is that you can not use 7th Fleet Gunner with Ric's ability at range one.

Ric's ability is mandatory and 7th Fleet Gunner is not. Something that is mandatory has to be done before things that may be done. If Ric has done a faster move than his target and ended up at range one he will be at four dice before you can decide to use 7th Fleet Gunner and thus can not because you are at the maximum four allowed. 

With CLT you add a result after dice are rolled (page 9 of R. Ref. under Dice Modification where it clearly state that rolling additional dice is not dice modification.) So CLT does not affect whether or not you can choose to use 7th Fleet Gunner. 7th Fleet is concerned with how many you roll not the number of results. 

The issue is whether or not a mandatory ability such as the one on Ric is a "game effect" in the same way the range bonus is. A "game effect" must go in the cue first. Ric's ability is mandatory. A range bonus is mandatory. 7th Fleet Gunner is not mandatory. Does everything that is mandatory have to come first? 

In my opinion: You must process Ric's ability before you may process 7th Fleet Gunner. You may process 7th Fleet Gunner before you must process CLT even if that takes you to five or more results. 

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2 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

My take on this which is in the thread Ryfterek linked is that you can not use 7th Fleet Gunner with Ric's ability at range one.

Ric's ability is mandatory and 7th Fleet Gunner is not. Something that is mandatory has to be done before things that may be done. If Ric has done a faster move than his target and ended up at range one he will be at four dice before you can decide to use 7th Fleet Gunner and thus can not because you are at the maximum four allowed. 

With CLT you add a result after dice are rolled (page 9 of R. Ref. under Dice Modification where it clearly state that rolling additional dice is not dice modification.) So CLT does not affect whether or not you can choose to use 7th Fleet Gunner. 7th Fleet is concerned with how many you roll not the number of results. 

The issue is whether or not a mandatory ability such as the one on Ric is a "game effect" in the same way the range bonus is. A "game effect" must go in the cue first. Ric's ability is mandatory. A range bonus is mandatory. 7th Fleet Gunner is not mandatory. Does everything that is mandatory have to come first? 

In my opinion: You must process Ric's ability before you may process 7th Fleet Gunner. You may process 7th Fleet Gunner before you must process CLT even if that takes you to five or more results. 

Nope. They have the same timing so are added to the ability que in the order their controlling player chooses.

Seventh Fleet Gunner•Ric Olié

Rules Reference page 3

"Ability Queue

The ABILITY QUEUE is used to resolve the timing of multiple abilities that trigger during the same timing window. Abilities are resolved from the front of the queue to the back of the queue. These abilities are added to the back of the ability queue using the following rules:

If both players have abilities that triggered from the same event, the abilities are added to the ability queue in player order.

If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event, that player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability queue.

If resolving an effect from the ability queue triggers additional effects, they are added to the front of the ability queue using the above rules.

See Appendix for 2 examples of the ability queue.

If there are game effects that share the same timing window as a player's ability, the game effect is resolved first.

For example, if a ship performs a red barrel roll and the ship has an ability that triggers after it performs a barrel roll, the ship gains a stress token before the other ability is resolved."

 

The 4 dice max cap from Seventh Fleet Gunner does apply though.

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26 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Nope. They have the same timing so are added to the ability que in the order their controlling player chooses.

Seventh Fleet Gunner•Ric Olié

Rules Reference page 3

"Ability Queue

The ABILITY QUEUE is used to resolve the timing of multiple abilities that trigger during the same timing window. Abilities are resolved from the front of the queue to the back of the queue. These abilities are added to the back of the ability queue using the following rules:

If both players have abilities that triggered from the same event, the abilities are added to the ability queue in player order.

If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event, that player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability queue.

If resolving an effect from the ability queue triggers additional effects, they are added to the front of the ability queue using the above rules.

See Appendix for 2 examples of the ability queue.

If there are game effects that share the same timing window as a player's ability, the game effect is resolved first.

For example, if a ship performs a red barrel roll and the ship has an ability that triggers after it performs a barrel roll, the ship gains a stress token before the other ability is resolved."

 

The 4 dice max cap from Seventh Fleet Gunner does apply though.

A very elaborate way of saying „No, Ric does not get 5 dice at range 1“. I agree and approve :D

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34 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Nope. They have the same timing so are added to the ability que in the order their controlling player chooses.

Seventh Fleet Gunner•Ric Olié

Rules Reference page 3

"Ability Queue

The ABILITY QUEUE is used to resolve the timing of multiple abilities that trigger during the same timing window. Abilities are resolved from the front of the queue to the back of the queue. These abilities are added to the back of the ability queue using the following rules:

If both players have abilities that triggered from the same event, the abilities are added to the ability queue in player order.

If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event, that player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability queue.

If resolving an effect from the ability queue triggers additional effects, they are added to the front of the ability queue using the above rules.

See Appendix for 2 examples of the ability queue.

If there are game effects that share the same timing window as a player's ability, the game effect is resolved first.

For example, if a ship performs a red barrel roll and the ship has an ability that triggers after it performs a barrel roll, the ship gains a stress token before the other ability is resolved."

 

The 4 dice max cap from Seventh Fleet Gunner does apply though.

First off I am not arguing that Ric going faster at range one can use 7th fleet to get to five attack dice. Your use of "Nope" to start your reply suggests that you perceive me to be doing so. I am not. What I am trying to do is create a way of looking at this so we can all be more persuasive for the person who will insist they can get Ric to five.

This is where the argument is coming from, "The player chooses the order." That's why this question keeps coming up. That's why this will come up again and again with other effects. 

Player choosing the order causes confusion on then having to "time travel" to resolve 7th Fleet Gunner's 4 die maximum restriction. 2 primary + 1 for range one + 1 for 7th Fleet Gunner since we're not at four yet + 1 for Ric's ability having been triggered (since it goes in "the player chooses the order) for five dice. Now we get caught in a temporal paradox don't we? We have to go back and re-interpret 7th Fleet Gunner and take it out. Is there a line or isn't there? "I get to do things in order don't I?" 

That you "go back" to 7th Fleet Gunner and remove that  effect makes room for an interpretation where 7th Fleet Gunner use can't add a fifth die which then causes confusion and questions with CLT. "We went back in time with Ric? Why aren't we going back in time here?" It creates question with totally different cards. It creates lots of chances for "feel bad" situations.  

I am suggesting that mandatory abilities such as Ric's be treated as "game effects" that must be resolved before "may" effects like 7th Fleet Gunner. Our equation then becomes 2 primary + 1 for range one + 1 for Ric's ability since it is mandatory + can not resolve 7th Fleet Gunner since our total is four already. No time travel. No arguments. No trying to twist 7th Fleet Up. 

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6 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

First off I am not arguing that Ric going faster at range one can use 7th fleet to get to five attack dice. Your use of "Nope" to start your reply suggests that you perceive me to be doing so. I am not. What I am trying to do is create a way of looking at this so we can all be more persuasive for the person who will insist they can get Ric to five.

This is where the argument is coming from, "The player chooses the order." That's why this question keeps coming up. That's why this will come up again and again with other effects. 

Player choosing the order causes confusion on then having to "time travel" to resolve 7th Fleet Gunner's 4 die maximum restriction. 2 primary + 1 for range one + 1 for 7th Fleet Gunner since we're not at four yet + 1 for Ric's ability having been triggered (since it goes in "the player chooses the order) for five dice. Now we get caught in a temporal paradox don't we? We have to go back and re-interpret 7th Fleet Gunner and take it out. Is there a line or isn't there? "I get to do things in order don't I?" 

That you "go back" to 7th Fleet Gunner and remove that  effect makes room for an interpretation where 7th Fleet Gunner use can't add a fifth die which then causes confusion and questions with CLT. "We went back in time with Ric? Why aren't we going back in time here?" It creates question with totally different cards. It creates lots of chances for "feel bad" situations.  

I am suggesting that mandatory abilities such as Ric's be treated as "game effects" that must be resolved before "may" effects like 7th Fleet Gunner. Our equation then becomes 2 primary + 1 for range one + 1 for Ric's ability since it is mandatory + can not resolve 7th Fleet Gunner since our total is four already. No time travel. No arguments. No trying to twist 7th Fleet Up. 

while i see where you're coming from with this, it's not consistent with the rules. first off, seventh fleet gunner, ric olié and calibrated laser targeting are all game effects. they also all fall under what we have interpreted as player abilities (there is no proper definition of the term in the rules currently, which is a very unfortunate circumstance to say the very least).

calibrated laser targeting has a different timing window than ric and seventh fleet gunner. you're adding a result, which constitutes a dice modification. that happens during the modify dice step of performing an attack, so there is no conflict with either of the other abilities.

ric olié and seventh fleet gunner have the same timing window. when you roll attack dice, you first have to determine the number of dice that should be rolled. since they have the same timing window and both are (as far as we know) player abilities, the controlling player can add them to the ability queue. there could be a conflict here, where someone chooses to add seventh fleet gunner first and then ric olié, to be able to roll five dice at range one. how ever, that would be disregarding the effect of seventh fleet gunner, which caps the maximum number of dice you can roll to four - ergo, there is no conflict. if you use seventh fleet gunner, you have to resolve the whole effect - and not just which ever part of the effect you like.

while ric oliés effect is not optional, it can still be stopped from resolving fully by other effects. rolling four dice with seventh fleet gunner and then adding a focus result with calibrated laser targeting during the modify dice-step is perfectly legal.

your suggestion is not bad, it's just not consistent or needed as of right now. hopefully, we will get a working definition of what constitutes a player ability sooner or later.

the only thing we have right now is a definition of abilities in general - and ric oliés effect certainly fits the bill. remember, everything that happens in the game, including player abilities, are also game effects.

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Landing on an asteroid is a game effect. Stress after a red maneuver is a game effect. Range bonus is a game effect. Game effects come first per text under "Ability Queue" in the rules reference. 

Abilities are not specifically called "game effects" in the rules. By the rulebook and as pointed out above abilities get added in player controlling order on the same timing.

Ric pilot and Kanan pilot are both abilities. But they are very different abilities. Ric if triggered is mandatory. Kanan is always a choice. But they would go in the ability cue in controlling player order. 

I am suggesting that when an ability become mandatory it instead be called a game effect that must come before any "may" ability. 

Edited by Frimmel

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@meffo

Running my pdf viewer's search function on the Rules Reference for the terms "Player Abilities" and "Player Ability" presents 0 instances. The term is either a hold over from 1.0 or an unofficial amalgam of Pilot Abilities and Ship Abilities which do appear in the Rules Reference. Both of which are defined on page 2 of the Rules Reference in Abilities. The entry includes a reference image. So the break down isn't "player ability" vs "game effect", it is "Pilot Ability" or "Ship Ability" vs game effect. How abilities are handled is made very clear on page 3 of the Rules Reference (which I quoted previously) and further clarified on page 20 (with multiple flow charts).

Abilities section (including the Pilot and Ship Abilities sub, but excluding the Replacement Effects sub) from the Rules Reference (you'll have to go to the pdf for yourself for the reference image on page 2) :

"ABILITIES
Some of the text on condition, damage, ship, and upgrade cards describe
abilities. These abilities consist of a timing and an effect.
• Unless a card ability uses the word “may” or has the “Action:” or
“Attack:” headers, the ability is mandatory and must be resolved.
• A ship cannot spend or remove tokens that belong to another ship unless
an effect explicitly states otherwise. Similarly, a ship cannot spend,
modify, or remove die results that belong to another ship unless an effect
explicitly states otherwise.
• If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the players use the ability
queue to determine the order in which the abilities resolve.
• A destroyed ship’s abilities remain active until that ship is removed unless
the ability specifies a different timing for the effect to end, such as “until
the end of the Engagement Phase.” Such effects remain active until the
end of the specified time.

Pilot and Ship Abilities
Some ship cards have abilities in addition to or instead of flavor text. All
limited ships have unique, personalized pilot abilities instead of flavor text.
Some ships have ship abilities on their ship cards listed below their pilot
ability or flavor text. Ships of the same ship type all have the same ship ability."

Ability Que entry on page 3 of the Rules Reference:

"ABILITY QUEUE
The ability queue is used to resolve the timing of multiple abilities that
trigger during the same timing window. Abilities are resolved from the front
of the queue to the back of the queue. These abilities are added to the back of
the ability queue using the following rules:
1. If both players have abilities that triggered from the same event, the
abilities are added to the ability queue in player order.
2. If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event, that
player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability
queue.
3. If resolving an effect from the ability queue triggers additional effects, they
are added to the front of the ability queue using the above rules.
See Appendix for 2 examples of the ability queue.
• If there are game effects that share the same timing window as a player’s
ability, the game effect is resolved first.
◊ For example, if a ship performs a red barrel roll and the ship has an
ability that triggers after it performs a barrel roll, the ship gains a
stress token before the other ability is resolved."

Ability Que Extended Examples entry from Page 20 of the Rules Reference (see that page for the Flow charts, they won't copy over for me):

"Ability Queue Example #1
Jake Farrell (A-wing) has the pilot ability “After you perform a 󲁂 or 󲁃
action, you may choose a friendly ship at range 0–1. That ship may perform a
󲁀 action.” He also has the ship ability “After you perform an action, you may
perform a red 󲁃 action.”
Jake Farrell activates and performs a 󲁂 action. At this point, both his ship
and pilot ability trigger. He chooses the order to add them to the ability queue,
adding his pilot ability first, then his ship ability.
While resolving his pilot ability, he can choose a friendly ship at range 0–1. He
chooses himself, and then performs a 󲁀 action. This triggers his ship ability
again. Now he adds the second instance of his ship ability in front of the first
instance of his ship ability.
While he resolves his ship ability, he performs a rd 󲁃 action. This triggers
his pilot ability and his ship ability again. He chooses to add his pilot ability
first, then his ship ability.
While resolving his pilot ability again, he chooses a friendly Phoenix Squadron
Pilot (A-wing) at range 1. The other A-wing performs a focus action and its
ship ability triggers. This is added to the front of the ability queue.
Phoenix Squadron Pilot resolves its ship ability and performs a red 󲁃 action.
The only abilities remaining in the ability queue are two instances of Jake
Farrell’s ship ability. Since he is stressed, he cannot perform an action so
neither ability has an effect and the ability queue empties."

"Ability Queue Example #2
Rachel, the Rebel player, is flying “Chopper” (VCX-100) and a Kyle Katarn
(HWK-290). Sam, the Scum player, is flying Old Teroch (Fang Fighter)
equipped with Static Discharge Vanes.
At the start of the Engagement Phase, “Chopper,” Kyle Katarn, and Old Teroch
have abilities that trigger. “Chopper’s” ability is “At the start of the
Engagement Phase, each enemy ship at range 0 gains 2 jam tokens.” Since
Rachel is the first player, she will resolve “Chopper’s” ability first.
Rachel uses “Chopper’s” ability, and Old Teroch gains two jam tokens. Static
Discharge Vanes’ ability is “If you would gain an ion or jam token, you may
choose a ship at range 0–1. If you do, gain 1 stress token and transfer 1
ion or jam token to that ship.” Since this is a replacement effect, it happens
immediately. Sam chooses for Old Teroch to gain one stress token and
transfers one of the jam tokens to Kyle.
Since Kyle had two focus tokens, the jam token removes one of them.
Rachel chooses to use Kyle’s ability to transfer his remaining focus token to
“Chopper.”
Old Teroch’s ability is “At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may choose
1 enemy ship at range 1. If you do and you are in its 󲈫, it removes all of
its green tokens.” Although Old Teroch is in the 󲈫 of both enemy ships,
“Chopper” is at range 0 and Kyle does not have any green tokens. His ability
has no effect."

Edited by Hiemfire

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4 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Landing on an asteroid is a game effect. Stress after a red maneuver is a game effect. Range bonus is a game effect. Game effects come first per text under "Ability Queue" in the rules reference. 

Abilities are not specifically called "game effects" in the rules. By the rulebook and as pointed out above abilities get added in player controlling order on the same timing.

Ric pilot and Kanan pilot are both abilities. But they are very different abilities. Ric if triggered is mandatory. Kanan is always a choice. But they would go in the ability cue in controlling player order. 

I am suggesting that when an ability become mandatory it instead be called a game effect that must come before any "may" ability. 

yes, i understand what you're suggesting - and i'm saying it's inconsistent with the rules reference. game effects are mentioned 17 times in the rules reference. in several places, abilities are given as examples of game effects. therefore, player abilities are not separate from game effects, but a category of game effects. game effects are used throughout the rules to describe many different things. the term seems to be all inclusive. therefore, my interpretation is that everything that happens during a game of x-wing can be described as a game effect. this also makes sense with what the expression game effect means in english.

abilities are (with extra information excluded) described on page two of the rules reference as:
"Some of the text on condition, damage, ship, and upgrade cards describe abilities. These abilities consist of a timing and an effect."

Rics ability (yes, it falls under abilities, specifically a Pilot Ability according the the rules reference) is an ability that has a specific timing and effect. even though it's not optional and can be called a game effect, it's still a Pilot Ability (this is a game term) - and as far as we know also a player ability.

again, i see where you're coming from with this. it's just not supported by the rules. the abilities and effects discussed in this threat works while treating non optional effects as player abilities, as do all other rules interactions (as far as i know, some wordings of abilities are of course still lacking though, but not because of this interaction).

it is already called a game effect way before it's mandatory, since it seems like the term game effects is all inclusive. this does not mean it always triggers first, though, since all player abilities are also game effects.

Edited by meffo

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11 minutes ago, meffo said:

yeah, the term is "player’s ability".

1 instance only, in Ability Queue (which I'm in no doubt you're aware of). Taken in the context of the entire Ability Queue entry and what Abilities are outlined as in the "Abilities" entry on the previous page, "player's ability" = Ship, Upgrade or Pilot ability originating from that player's list. Maybe it is "game effects" that needs to be defined? Though with Ship, Upgrade and Pilot effects clumped under "Abilities" a safe assumption is "game effects" = everything else.

Edited by Hiemfire

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15 minutes ago, meffo said:

(only used in description of ability queue and the aftermath step)

Search functions sadly don't adjust for tense or plural so I missed that one. Still, reading in that context, the meaning is the same. Ship, Upgrade or Pilot ability originating from that player's list.

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1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

Search functions sadly don't adjust for tense or plural so I missed that one. Still, reading in that context, the meaning is the same. Ship, Upgrade or Pilot ability originating from that player's list.

you can adjust for them yourself by broadening the search to "player's abilit". i still don't see any inconsistencies or even reasons to define the term "game effect", as long as abilities are defined they may as well be a category of game effects for all intents and purposes - and abilities are already clearly defined. it might help some people i guess, but that just makes me think that a lot of cards need errata and the rules reference needs a complete revision. proper technical writing is of course very desirable, but at least the rules work pretty well currently.

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2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Unless a card ability uses the word “may” or has the “Action:” or “Attack:” headers, the ability is mandatory and must be resolved.

(emphasis mine) This is the bullet point that I think @Frimmel has in mind. I would also add the following quote (page 5 of the RR):

Quote

During an attack, a ship cannot choose to roll fewer dice than it is supposed to roll.

Since Ric's ability does not use the word may, it must be resolved before Seventh Fleet Gunner, which does use the word may. So in practice, Ric's ability acts like a game effect in regards to the ability queue.

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14 minutes ago, Nspace said:

(emphasis mine) This is the bullet point that I think @Frimmel has in mind. I would also add the following quote (page 5 of the RR):

I am aware of Frimmel's meaning already. They've made it clear what change to the rules they want to have implemented. 

14 minutes ago, Nspace said:

Since Ric's ability does not use the word may, it must be resolved before Seventh Fleet Gunner, which does use the word may. So in practice, Ric's ability acts like a game effect in regards to the ability queue.

Not with the way the official rules are currently written since there is nothing in the rules that states "must" abilities (which include all abilities that don't state "may" or have an Action: or Attack: header) are required to be resolved before any other ability with the same timing, just that "must" abilities are required to be resolved. Per the current rules they are placed in the queue with other abilities of the same timing in player order, resolving in the order their owning player chooses...

Edited by Hiemfire

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It doesn't matter which way you resolve them.

If you Ric first, you're at 4, and cannot use 7th Fleet Gunner as you would violate its maximum of 4.

If you use 7th Fleet Gunner first, you're at 4 dice, and cannot use Ric as he would violate 7FG's maximum of 4.

I imagine it'll take a FAQ/RR update before people stop trying to Rules Lawyer this one because they really, really, really want to cheat, but be realistic, people. You're not getting 5 dice.

Edited by DR4CO

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3 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

If you Ric first, you're at 4, and cannot use 7th Fleet Gunner as you would violate its maximum of 4.

If you use 7th Fleet Gunner first, you're at 4 dice, and cannot use Ric as he would violate 7FG's maximum of 4.

Exactly.

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16 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

They've made it clear what change to the rules they want to have implemented. 

That's a fair characterization of it.

I'd like to see a more clear definition of "Game Effect," and of "Ability" and its subsets. I'd like it made clear that "must do" things need to go into the queue before "may do" things. I think this is also important in light of the distinction the rules reference makes with regards to cards that use "mandatory" and the rules reference's acknowledgement that there are effects not using "mandatory" that you are none the less obligated ("must do") too. 

 

 

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The new Rules Reference 1.0.5 has clarified the interaction (page 5, under 2.a. Roll Attack Dice) :

Quote

The attacking player determines the number of attack dice to roll. Starting with the attack value, modifiers that increase or decrease the number of attack dice (such as range bonus and other effects) are applied. Next, if any minimum or maximum number of dice has been set, that limit is applied. There is always a minimum of 0. Then they roll that many dice.

So the dice Maximum that 7th Fleet Gunner sets is applied after adding dice from all sources.

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