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Stormtrooper721

New rule needed regarding Creatures in melee combat

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Something like:

Ruthless Tactics 5 points

When a friendly unit with a face up order token activates, it may gain one suppression token to gain Reckless until the end of its activation.

 

keyword: Reckless

If you are not engaged, you can use ranged weapons to attack enemy units engaged in melee. Friendly units enaged with the target unit are dealt one damage for each <surge> result on the attack roll. After the attack roll, assign one suppression to each unit engaged with the target unit.

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9 minutes ago, ScottGilbert25 said:

Fett can shoot his flamethrower into melee combat. Maybe upgrades will come out that will let you.

Fairly big distinction: Boba Fett can use use flamethrower as a melee weapon. He isn't using it as a ranged weapon to target units that aren't engaged with him.

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I feel there are plenty of counters to tauntauns. A naked ATRT has better range , better survivability, triple red in melee and can also disengage, can also be protected in melee in the same way. While they don't get dodge they do get armor, and they don't hit as hard, however I do trust the testing process which will get better as they move on.

I keep hearing that they get 7 actions , to be honest, how many of those actions arent included to balance them so that they aren't crap. Imagine if you have the units suppressed then they won't have enough speed to rush. Running 3 units at your opponents 8+ isn't a good idea either, so they have to come in with support which also means they are subject to fire on the way in. Hostile environments is amazingly bad for them (I intend running them with Endurance until im proven otherwise) 

Time will tell whether they become the new strike team but I see enough counters in the game for now that a knee jerk nerf is needed especially as people haven't learned to play with or against them yet but just see the "action economy" of them. There is a reason they were released with their abilities

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1 hour ago, syrath said:

I feel there are plenty of counters to tauntauns. A naked ATRT has better range , better survivability, triple red in melee and can also disengage, can also be protected in melee in the same way. While they don't get dodge they do get armor, and they don't hit as hard, however I do trust the testing process which will get better as they move on.

 

 

 

It doesn't have better range, does not have better survivability and is not protected in melee...

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1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

It doesn't have better range, does not have better survivability and is not protected in melee...

They can be in melee so cannot be shot at while in melee. And 2 naked ATRT are only 20 points more than a unit of tauntaun. But hit with better dice , they can suppress melee units the same way and escape melee the same way

For 20 points more they get a range 3 or range 4 weapon that rolls more dice than they do so they are at least capable of more range (twice it)

Because they have Armor they have better survivability as they only get damage on crit s (which also by the way bypass dodges) yet they cost 35 pts cheaper without the ranged weapon and 15 pts cheaper when armed.  

The Tauntauns are essentially fleshier ATRT with better ranged attack but range 2 instead of 3. The ATRT has better survivability even including the dodge because not only do they have Armor but that keyword is always on. Agile is conditional on acting before your opponent, and gets limited by suppression.

Remove Agile or limit it to 1 or remove charge or even reposition then Tauntauns become sitting ducks and are next to useless. Time will tell if they are undercosted, they have something in place now to counter that. Tauntaun lists aren't winning competitions yet, but if we see them dominate and become the next strike team and become auto includes on every rebel army then it may be time to say enough is enough, but I've seen them countered on table already albeit with the now nerfed strike team, death troopers, palpatine, armor. They have counters, they ,however, are natural predators for gunlines, which up till now have been the defacto standard with sniper strike teams & saboteur strike teams. That doesn't mean they need nerfed, the meta will stabilise and if it doesn't we get another round of point changes but I don't think we will see them errata the card or abilities.

In fact with the price drops on speeder bikes and Armor then we may well have a very healthy meta with a proper rock paper scissors set up.

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2 minutes ago, syrath said:

They can be in melee so cannot be shot at while in melee. And 2 naked ATRT are only 20 points more than a unit of tauntaun. But hit with better dice , they can suppress melee units the same way and escape melee the same way

For 20 points more they get a range 3 or range 4 weapon that rolls more dice than they do so they are at least capable of more range (twice it)

Because they have Armor they have better survivability as they only get damage on crit s (which also by the way bypass dodges) yet they cost 35 pts cheaper without the ranged weapon and 15 pts cheaper when armed.  

The Tauntauns are essentially fleshier ATRT with better ranged attack but range 2 instead of 3. The ATRT has better survivability even including the dodge because not only do they have Armor but that keyword is always on. Agile is conditional on acting before your opponent, and gets limited by suppression.

Remove Agile or limit it to 1 or remove charge or even reposition then Tauntauns become sitting ducks and are next to useless. Time will tell if they are undercosted, they have something in place now to counter that. Tauntaun lists aren't winning competitions yet, but if we see them dominate and become the next strike team and become auto includes on every rebel army then it may be time to say enough is enough, but I've seen them countered on table already albeit with the now nerfed strike team, death troopers, palpatine, armor. They have counters, they ,however, are natural predators for gunlines, which up till now have been the defacto standard with sniper strike teams & saboteur strike teams. That doesn't mean they need nerfed, the meta will stabilise and if it doesn't we get another round of point changes but I don't think we will see them errata the card or abilities.

In fact with the price drops on speeder bikes and Armor then we may well have a very healthy meta with a proper rock paper scissors set up.

 

Vehicels can be in melee, but cannot be engaged

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49 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Vehicels can be in melee, but cannot be engaged

I didn't say they were engaged I said they are protected by being in melee in the same way as Tauntauns are. 

Quote: During a ranged attack, the attacker and defender are not in a melee, and the attacker can use only weapons that have a blue range

So if you rule Tauntauns can be shot you should also rule vehicles can, as they cannot be shot while in melee either, and cannot be prevented from running out of melee. They even look the same so if you want to compare 1 tauntaun to a single naked atrt

Wounds 4 no armour  vs wounds.5 Armor. ATRT win as they take more than half of the wounds less than the Tauntauns in the first place

Both have the same save so the only difference here is dodge vs Armor. Dodge only works if the Tauntauns moved and only helps on one(max two)attacks normally. Armor would remove more hits , particularly against black and red dice

Melee attack Black Black White vs Red Red Black average 13/8 Vs 19/8 hits if they can trigger Ram (which has an additional requirement they get 21/8 hits per attack) so if they can use RAM they get .25 more hits than the ATRT without it they get 0.75 less

Ranged attack the Tauntauns win against a naked ATRT esp with the sharpshooter, but ATRT have range 3 even naked , but placing a Tauntauns this close to shoot means that other things can shoot you.?

Both displace troopers. Both can disengage from melee , the ATRT can disengage from multiple units the Tauntauns cannot. The ATRT wins

Movement Tauntauns can move range 3 , ATRT gets range 2 , Tauntauns can move and attack even if suppressed but will run off the table very fast if they get panicked. Suppression doesn't affect the ATRT. Tauntauns win the movement war. ATRT win the consistency war because they have no courage. 

Points the Tauntauns cost 45 pts, the ATRT costs 55 pts, given its additional survivability even including dodge I think the ATRT is costed well as is the Tauntauns. The only thing is 3  ATRT are all you can field for 115 pts. Tauntauns can field 6 of them for 270 pts. If you could field 6 ATRT for 230 points would you say that they need to be nerfed. 6 ATRT would do more damage than 6 Tauntauns could because more of them would reach their targets. If you can accept 55 pts as fair for the ATRT then Tauntauns at 45 each are more than enough given they are one wound less and armorless

 

Edited by syrath

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3 minutes ago, syrath said:

I didn't say they were engaged I said they are protected by being in melee in the same way as Tauntauns are. 

Quote: During a ranged attack, the attacker and defender are not in a melee, and the attacker can use only weapons that have a blue range

So if you rule Tauntauns can be shot you should also rule vehicles can, as they cannot be shot while in melee either, and cannot be prevented from running out of melee. They even look the same so if you want to compare 1 tauntaun to a single naked atrt

 

 

That's not protected at all, the unit can just step back and shoot you because being in melee doesn't stop you from moving or being shot at by unit not in the melee, only being engaged does which is what the Tauntauns will be with other troopers.

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2 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

That's not protected at all, the unit can just step back and shoot you because being in melee doesn't stop you from moving or being shot at by unit not in the melee, only being engaged does which is what the Tauntauns will be with other troopers.

Compare the damage a single ATRT takes from an 8 dice (all white to have it favour the Tauntaun) they end up with identical damage from the single crit the Tauntaun has to use both dodge tokens to roll the same defense dice. The ATRT can keep this up all round. Tauntauns cannot. Melee offense I've already shown as similar,

As for the Tauntauns being able to run out of combat, they cannot when 2 units are in melee. 

I know they aren't the same when other units can't disengage from the Tauntauns but that also works against the ATRT as well since melee attacks will always have the same or less dice than most units roll for ranged, if they don't then they have no reason to step back from either. So if you imagine a rebel trooper unit rolling 5 black in melee or 4 black 6 white in ranged. So the ATRT is going to be hurt more from the ranged. 

So the question still stands is 45 points overcosted for an ATRT that can move at speed 3 and doesn't have Armor and can shoot better.  We shall see, I'm not saying it's overcosted but remove a keyword from the Tauntauns and it effectively will make it useless even losing reposition could do some serious harm to it. It doesn't get cover from a lot of terrain (e.g. Barricades) though this has the benefit of not slowing them down either. They get less affected by rough terrain as they still move speed 2 with larger base. Everything is locked round movement though, so if they don't move they don't get that beneift, if they move late , they don't get that benefit , they get suppressed they lose half their movement (and now most of their "action economy" ) they don't get cover from suppression so a single mortar hit has the effect of slowing them down and making them easier to hit, easier to damage.

 So let's count counters Bossk (suppressive weapon) mortar(AT ST shoretrooper emplacment -suppressive) Boba fett and Sabine cords (slows them down to 1) , Grandfather Palpatine (Suppressive and immobilize) , Death troopers (suppressive weapon), Vader and Luke can put melee them perhaps Sabine as well esp as they have red defense and half decent courage) , Armor can take significant hits from them though RAM can land a few hits extra, but generally will pulverize them when shooting back with ranged weapons. Speeder Bikes can do a reasonable job of hit and running them so triple bikes. Although nerfed range 5 snipers can still reach out and touch them. Many of these units have seen points reductions. The rebels themselves have less counters perhaps, but I think Landspeeder/Airspeeder/ ATRT /Luke /Sabine (once she lands her 2 pip any Tauntauns in range are in real trouble) sniper strike teams, are still viable against them. The whole condition Hostile Environment is very bad for Tauntauns. 

Like all things.You can try and play round these counters but if you land into combat with a trooper unit and your opponent has Luke or Vader nearby or even Jyn Erso/ Chewbacca /wookie warriors /IRG /Palpatine can attack. Remember for them to take best advantage of the Agile keyword they have to act first , which means that even attacking with another trooper unit before the end of the turn prevents them from disengaging. All they can do now is either disengage , or dodge/attack or aim/attack and in an attrition war with 2 5 man trooper units rolling 10 black dice against their at best 4 black 2 white with 2 additional wounds. So even going into melee with them before they act can work. 

I can think of plenty of things that will take them down but played well they can be wrecking balls, so can Palpatine who can do so much more in a round than the Tauntauns can (albeit for one round). 

Ultimately my point is that everyone says they have the ability to roll 7 actions into their round, but this is conditional on acting first, being able to move, being unsuppressed, not being caught out in the open (standby anyone) if you cause any one of these things to happen to a Tauntaun unit you have the opportunity to turn the tide on them, since without those actions they are vulnerable. 

Sorry for the long post, but if people would let the dust settle they may even see that I'm right. If I'm wrong as I said in sure they will be recosted but calling for them to have them Errata'd 1 month or so after release when everyone is still figuring them out is just a knee jerk reaction. Give it time and see how the meta shifts.

Edit - missed sonic charges and dioxis grenade from my list. Sonic charges could be interesting. Also apology been that long since played with vehicles the ATRT doesn't surge in defense so takes more damage because of less saves but except against white dice it would make up for this on taking far less wounds also has 2 more wounds so if I could bring 6 ATRTS 3 OF which with upgrades for ranged I would do it in  a heartbeat over tauntauns. (Esp as the long range ATRTs could be cover for those following giving them a chance to rush in.

Edited by syrath

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17 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I think the engagement rules for shooting are designed for theme and game balance as much as realism. It would be lame if a squad of death troopers just shot Luke unceremoniously as he was facing off against Darth Vader in a dramatic lightsaber showdown.

I do think it would be cool to introduce a command upgrade or command card that allows you to shoot into melee with some kind of bad consequence. Would be very thematic for Empire/CIS/Saw Guerrera for Rebels

Grevious's gun has versatile which let's you shoot while in melee albeit still cannot shoot into a melee , which is close to this idea, not what you want but still not unreasonable to have either. I'm on the side of not being able to shoot into melee. If you allow ranged units to pick targets even in melee they can then always play to their strength and with most units being stronger at range , all this serves to do is make ranged units even more attractive to take. 

 

Edited by syrath

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