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R3dReVenge

Are Tauntauns Overpowered? Discuss...

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6 hours ago, Squark said:

The AT-RT is just... weird. After the points adjustment, they're probably in line with the dewbacks power-wise, but they'll still be annoyingly immobile and aim token dependent. And then there's that awful defense die...

Might be an awful defense dice (which is the same as the AT ST , and for the sa!e reason. Their protection comes from the word Armor strapped to them so most hits outside of crits or impact shots just bounce off. So unless it's a hero shot is only dependant on the amount of dice rolled since no matter if it is white , red or black it is a 1 in 8 chance of rolling a crit in the first place. (1 in 4 for names as they surge to crit it's which is why critical is a good middle ground for some weapons allowing limited surge to crit)

So compared with a unit rolling white dice that is surge to hit a non Armor unit will take 3 times as many wounds to save against when compared with an ATRT or Atst , giving either unit a red save would make it significantly harder to kill , which is why the tank is a actually much harder to kill. (Saving 50% of hits compared with 33 for either of the at-at vehicles)

Edited by syrath

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1 hour ago, syrath said:

Might be an awful defense dice (which is the same as the AT ST , and for the sa!e reason. Their protection comes from the word Armor strapped to them so most hits outside of crits or impact shots just bounce off. So unless it's a hero shot is only dependant on the amount of dice rolled since no matter if it is white , red or black it is a 1 in 8 chance of rolling a crit in the first place. (1 in 4 for names as they surge to crit it's which is why critical is a good middle ground for some weapons allowing limited surge to crit)

So compared with a unit rolling white dice that is surge to hit a non Armor unit will take 3 times as many wounds to save against when compared with an ATRT or Atst , giving either unit a red save would make it significantly harder to kill , which is why the tank is a actually much harder to kill. (Saving 50% of hits compared with 33 for either of the at-at vehicles)

I am quite aware of that. I was talking about feel vs. effectiveness. The AT-RT is probably balanced now, but many rebel players I know feel it's frustrating to play, and it's certainly not a very interesting unit to fight against. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Also, nitpick: The AT-ST is actually slightly more survivable than the Tank in a vacuum (16.5 effective wounds compared to 16), although the tank pulls ahead in practice due to its much lower profile making it easier to stay outside of LoS and get cover. Also, the AT-RT's dice is not the same as the AT-ST; the former doesn't surge to block, while the latter does.

Edited by Squark
Changed to be less harsh to someone who probably isn't a native English Speaker

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15 hours ago, Derrault said:

If you happen to have a giant (but not too giant) piece of terrain, sure? That still makes them worse than Rebel Troopers in the same situation (except in the incredibly rare case of a one shot for the exact number of hits to wounds happens)

I mean, movements great and all, but it’s not raw defense.

I mean, pretty much every terrain piece I own across all three tables will provide them cover.  All buildings will, most wrecks will, heck, even things like shops and ammo crates will give them cover one.  Pretty much the only things that won't are scatter terrain pieces, and possibly my trenches (because I'm not sure if they can fit down into them or not.  And they're no worse, and arguably better than a Rebel trooper if they only get shot once or twice, or only spend a dodge at a time.  They have the same same save, will get the same benefit from cover (just not suppression), and have better access to multiple dodges.  They also can just ignore the first three wounds before they start losing offensive firepower, which Rebel troopers can't. 

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3 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

I mean, pretty much every terrain piece I own across all three tables will provide them cover.  All buildings will, most wrecks will, heck, even things like shops and ammo crates will give them cover one.  Pretty much the only things that won't are scatter terrain pieces, and possibly my trenches (because I'm not sure if they can fit down into them or not.  And they're no worse, and arguably better than a Rebel trooper if they only get shot once or twice, or only spend a dodge at a time.  They have the same same save, will get the same benefit from cover (just not suppression), and have better access to multiple dodges.  They also can just ignore the first three wounds before they start losing offensive firepower, which Rebel troopers can't. 

Darrault doesn't play with cover.

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When I saw Tauntaun's previewed I somewhat thought of it as a make-up unit for the rebels.  Kinda of a "our bad we made so many weak rebel units, cough Jyn,sorry"  It is tanky at an affordable cost meaning if it dies you don't have a massive hole in your army.  It has speed, and has a little versatility with its RAM and range two weapon.  So lets start with its a really strong unit.

Is it OP though, no because there are already counters for it.  Let's ignore Vader and the Emperor who are just begging for something to get close.  Arsenal is a great choice against them, meaning an ATST or Occupier tank.  What about the E Web like Vader is slow but has the probable health to weather a Tauntaun can hit decently hard and are only 60% the price, meaning you can afford more units.  I think the problem for Imperial players is they got into the DLT mindset and want to plink at range and ran into a unit that was strong against that.  
I do think they help change the Meta which is a good thing.

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19 minutes ago, Uetur said:

When I saw Tauntaun's previewed I somewhat thought of it as a make-up unit for the rebels.  Kinda of a "our bad we made so many weak rebel units, cough Jyn,sorry" 

And I and most of the Rebel host graciously accept FFG's apology

*charge tune played on cantina instrument*

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7 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

I mean, pretty much every terrain piece I own across all three tables will provide them cover.  All buildings will, most wrecks will, heck, even things like shops and ammo crates will give them cover one.  Pretty much the only things that won't are scatter terrain pieces, and possibly my trenches (because I'm not sure if they can fit down into them or not.  And they're no worse, and arguably better than a Rebel trooper if they only get shot once or twice, or only spend a dodge at a time.  They have the same same save, will get the same benefit from cover (just not suppression), and have better access to multiple dodges.  They also can just ignore the first three wounds before they start losing offensive firepower, which Rebel troopers can't. 

What, you don't own barricades? 
Because barricades don't give them cover.

Remember, a Tauntaun mini is twice the height, and more than twice the width of a rebel trooper mini. Anything that would grant cover to the Tauntaun is full on LOS blocking terrain for those infantry, and there's plenty of terrain on competitive maps where the infantry are visible over it (in which case it would NOT provide cover to that tauntaun).

Also, fyi, the rule on trenches is that they would grant cover to applicable minis even if the terrain doesn't obscure half the mini.

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17 hours ago, charlesanakin said:

For me a (soon to be) CIS player I think one AAT tank with High Velocity (cant spend Dodges) with 4 red dice and critical 2 will be highly effective. Add to that two untis of Droidekas staggered with suppressive. 

Too bad you've got to wait 6 months to actually use the AAT, at which point it might be a moot point.

15 hours ago, Derrault said:

What, you don't own barricades? 
Because barricades don't give them cover.

Remember, a Tauntaun mini is twice the height, and more than twice the width of a rebel trooper mini. Anything that would grant cover to the Tauntaun is full on LOS blocking terrain for those infantry, and there's plenty of terrain on competitive maps where the infantry are visible over it (in which case it would NOT provide cover to that tauntaun).

Also, fyi, the rule on trenches is that they would grant cover to applicable minis even if the terrain doesn't obscure half the mini.

I certainly own them, not sure when the last time I used them was.  Or even when the last time I saw barricades in use at any RPQ or other tournament.  That's fair, though, because of my initial phrasing.  Score one Rhetoric point to you.

And yes, tauntauns are bigger.  But you can still maneuver troopers to get cover from something (and still shoot) that would also provide cover for tauntauns.  If anything, this is easier for tauntauns precisely because they can shoot over anything that would block LOS for trooper units. 

As for the trenches, the issue wasn't if they would grant cover, its whether or not the bases of the tauntauns can fit into said trenches.  

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On 9/12/2019 at 2:04 AM, JediPartisan said:

What does that have to do with Jaws?

 

Taun...taun...

Strange...as an imperial player, all I hear is Nerf...Nerf...Nerf...Nerf...Nerf...

Must be a Laurel / Yanny thing 😜

Edited by Staelwulf

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2 hours ago, gothound said:

Nerf bosk and then we'll talk

As an Imperial player (technically, since Clones aren't officially out yet) how would you like Bossk nerfed?  He never came across as all that good to me; an overpriced suppressive sniper.  As soon as you look at him he dies.

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Overpowered?

Before point eratta, yes they were the n1 support choice.

After point and eratta they are one of 3 solid support choices.

If they are op compared to the other factions, guess we will know after clone wars comes out

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On 9/13/2019 at 8:59 AM, Alpha17 said:

Too bad you've got to wait 6 months to actually use the AAT, at which point it might be a moot point.

I certainly own them, not sure when the last time I used them was.  Or even when the last time I saw barricades in use at any RPQ or other tournament.  That's fair, though, because of my initial phrasing.  Score one Rhetoric point to you.

And yes, tauntauns are bigger.  But you can still maneuver troopers to get cover from something (and still shoot) that would also provide cover for tauntauns.  If anything, this is easier for tauntauns precisely because they can shoot over anything that would block LOS for trooper units. 

As for the trenches, the issue wasn't if they would grant cover, its whether or not the bases of the tauntauns can fit into said trenches.  

The point wasn't rhetorical, it was that ANYTHING that provides Tauntauns cover is absolute cover for the troopers.

Not being able to be shot > heavy cover. Yes?
And if the trooper has heavy cover, but is still shootable, the Tauntaun has no cover. In which case, the Tauntaun's defense is garbage as it only gets 2 measily dodge tokens. Big deal, two hits blocked, that's not going to save a tauntaun.

Also, if the tauntaun benefits from cover, the troopers wouldn't be able to see over on object that large, and they must have LOS to the target in order to contribute to the attack.

The tauntauns real strength is not their defense, it's their offense and being able to go from outside of range 3 to make their hit on infantry.
The way to counter that is to have a mix of units with longer ranges/fast movement in your army so that they can attrit a tauntaun before it can close with the infantry, a wounded tauntaun is significantly less scary (2 dice at range and 3 dice melee is no big deal)

re: trenches, they don't have to fit in per the RRG, they can sit on it and for game purposes they get cover. (Trenches/Blast craters are basically area terrain that doesn't block LOS as far as the game rules are concerned).

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2 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Overpowered?

Before point eratta, yes they were the n1 support choice.

After point and eratta they are one of 3 solid support choices.

If they are op compared to the other factions, guess we will know after clone wars comes out

They are still the n1 support choice.  The point drop won't put atrts on The table unless someone doesn't have enough tauntaun models

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so for those who say they are overpowered why do yall think that just curious. they can't go over terrain (unless its difficult terrain as label at the start of the game) also of those who use them or faced off against them are yall enforcing the cornering rule on them?
corner rule under movement is
While moving a mini along a path created by a movement tool, if the base of the mini is impeded by an object, that mini must stop its movement prematurely unless the mini can legally move through, over, or on top of the obstructing object.
they don't have expert climber so they can't go over stuff that is over half their height

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10 minutes ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

so for those who say they are overpowered why do yall think that just curious. they can't go over terrain (unless its difficult terrain as label at the start of the game) also of those who use them or faced off against them are yall enforcing the cornering rule on them?
corner rule under movement is
While moving a mini along a path created by a movement tool, if the base of the mini is impeded by an object, that mini must stop its movement prematurely unless the mini can legally move through, over, or on top of the obstructing object.
they don't have expert climber so they can't go over stuff that is over half their height

Tauntauns have the best action economy in the game. 2 moves, 2 dodges, Free Attack, + pivots. 

Movement 3 let's you quickly engage your opponent. Usually around turns 2/3. But most importantly, it allows you to maneuver in such a way to give you a favorable engagement. Most terrain will provide them LOS blocking cover or cover in general (just hide them behind a building as you move up). This makes shooting at them a challenge. 

Then they get into combat with your units, do some damage, and then jump into another combat. This really limits your options as the defender since most of your units are vulnerable once Tauntauns get into CC.  

You get all of this for a cheap 90 points. Most counters require 160+ points to counter this 90 point unit.... 

 

My biggest gripe about them is that they take away one of the most interesting aspects about this game (action decisions). Do I move, shoot, dodge, etc? Tauntauns get to do it all and at no penalty. You can even argue that they get a free Aim since ram gives them two free crits.  

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1 minute ago, R3dReVenge said:

Tauntauns have the best action economy in the game. 2 moves, 2 dodges, Free Attack, + pivots. 

Movement 3 let's you quickly engage your opponent. Usually around turns 2/3. But most importantly, it allows you to maneuver in such a way to give you a favorable engagement. Most terrain will provide them LOS blocking cover or cover in general (just hide them behind a building as you move up). This makes shooting at them a challenge. 

Then they get into combat with your units, do some damage, and then jump into another combat. This really limits your options as the defender since most of your units are vulnerable once Tauntauns get into CC.  

You get all of this for a cheap 90 points. Most counters require 160+ points to counter this 90 point unit.... 

 

My biggest gripe about them is that they take away one of the most interesting aspects about this game (action decisions). Do I move, shoot, dodge, etc? Tauntauns get to do it all and at no penalty. You can even argue that they get a free Aim since ram gives them two free crits.  

why not corner hug them to force them not to be as dangerous and also at 2 suppression 1 action and snipers (which are cheaper then 90) can counter the dodges easy. i mean i see where you are coming from and they only get free crits if they complete the movement 3 (full move to the end of the movement tool) and during the attack that follows it in melee.

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6 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

As an Imperial player (technically, since Clones aren't officially out yet) how would you like Bossk nerfed?  He never came across as all that good to me; an overpriced suppressive sniper.  As soon as you look at him he dies.

Point increase. His damage/crit output via aim, as well as some of his command cards does a lot for his cost.

Of course I don't actually want him nerfed, Ive come to accept the reality and game where Bosk exists as he does, somthing Imperial players need to do with Tauns. Threads like these show we got some growing pains to go through 😁

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1 minute ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

why not corner hug them to force them not to be as dangerous and also at 2 suppression 1 action and snipers (which are cheaper then 90) can counter the dodges easy. i mean i see where you are coming from and they only get free crits if they complete the movement 3 (full move to the end of the movement tool) and during the attack that follows it in melee.

Corner hug doesn't cause any issues for them (or not for me so far). Snipers do nothing against Tauntauns, I'd even argue that snipers are terrible against them. The power from snipers comes from their ability to remove single wound models from the game. Tauntauns are 4 wounds a model. So, yes you can do a single wound (through the dodge), but the dodge will still stay and your other units will need to chew through those dodges.  

I agree that suppression seems like the best counter to them, but I find it difficult to get multiple units to shoot at them when they are constantly behind LOS blocking buildings (I play on a Mos Eisly board at home and random boards at the shop). The other problem is the level of commitment that your opponent must go through when shooting at tauntauns. The unit is only 90 points and your opponent needs to dedicate multiple units to slow one Tauntaun unit down. 

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7 minutes ago, gothound said:

Point increase. His damage/crit output via aim, as well as some of his command cards does a lot for his cost.

Of course I don't actually want him nerfed, Ive come to accept the reality and game where Bosk exists as he does, somthing Imperial players need to do with Tauns. Threads like these show we got some growing pains to go through 😁

It's funny. I'm actually a rebel / GAR player. Tauntauns are very easy to use and I haven't been punished yet by their play patterns. When the next tournament comes around, I can't wait to see how many lists utilize them. 

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17 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

It's funny. I'm actually a rebel / GAR player. Tauntauns are very easy to use and I haven't been punished yet by their play patterns. When the next tournament comes around, I can't wait to see how many lists utilize them. 

I think the most grounded criticism against them is that they are too easy to use. Even with a sloppy execution they can get results. 

But I am biased for them as a rebel player. DONT TOUCH MY TAUNTAUNS. This is the best rebel unit released and the first time in a long time since wonder twins that the imps have sweat this hard at the thought of a unit. Leave em be!!!!

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I've had a few games with/against them already and I don't see them broken at all. Strong yes, broken no. All games went basically the same: Round 1-3, "oh my God Tauntauns, they are completely destroying me!", "Round 4-6:, "Ok, now they are dead, we can play now!" In the end most games were really close and the tauntaun lists lost more often than won.

I would really hope you actually try out playing against them and actually trying to find strategies against them before scraming for nervs. You'll find out they actually aren't super easy and super safe to play. They do have weaknesses.

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16 hours ago, Ralgon said:

They are still the n1 support choice.  The point drop won't put atrts on The table unless someone doesn't have enough tauntaun models

I disagree. 

Flamer at-rt is immune to small arms fire and does insane damage to infantry and will be amazing vs battle droids for only 75p.

Tauntauns are great, I agree. However give people time to adapt to them and with so many units that can bring hunter these days, I think the tauntaun dominace will go down. 

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1 hour ago, jocke01 said:

I disagree. 

Flamer at-rt is immune to small arms fire and does insane damage to infantry and will be amazing vs battle droids for only 75p.

Tauntauns are great, I agree. However give people time to adapt to them and with so many units that can bring hunter these days, I think the tauntaun dominace will go down. 

Immune is a rather strong word, especially with all the "critical x" making it's way into the game soon.

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