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R3dReVenge

Are Tauntauns Overpowered? Discuss...

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I heard all the hype about these guys, so I decided to run a few in my games yesterday. They were incredibly strong and I felt like I wasn't even playing them right.

 

My thoughts:

- They provide the most actions of any unit in the game for a cheap cost (2 move, 1 attack, 2 dodge, and pivots). No unit has this many actions. Not saying that this is unfair / broken, but it definitely makes them very forgiving and removes a lot of action choices with the unit. 

- Current counters cost significantly more than Tauntauns (Which is a red flag when determining the power level of a unit). I've heard that both armor and force users are strong counters, but they just cost so much compared to the Tauntauns and it seems like a losing strategy to keep your 190+ point Vader protecting your troops from a 90 point Tauntaun unit. 

 

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on these guys. 

Are they overpowered? Why?

What units counter them? I'm talking both high-costed counters and low-costed counters (if any).

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No.

Tauntauns are the best rebel unit in a long time, and perhaps the first time the rebels have had an edge when compared to Imperials. Common, leave them be, let us rebs have somthing good for once.

Also Ram does cut into armor but the secret is escorting it with infantry. My herd of Tauntauns were making quick work of an AT-ST, but because there were several corp nearby, I had to pull them away from the attack since they were sitting ducks.

Now against the roger-rogers, yeah maybe tauntauns are over powered against a mass infantry faction

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At 90 points (base) probably. Suppression at range appears to be the answer, but that's not easy with a unit that lols along with 2xspeed 3 moves. Irg and wookies +activation advantage should work as well. 

The bigger issue is going to be 3x units of them in a pack with t47/luke/sabine for support... 

You're still at roughly 1/2 a list points wise, and you have a block of units that have to be dealt with 1st or be blendered.

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Suppression can counter them well I actually think CIS will do just fine against them due to activation control. The big issue with tauntauns is that they really wreck infantry so if you don't deal with them early you are in big trouble once they get to your lines

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26 minutes ago, gothound said:

No.

Tauntauns are the best rebel unit in a long time, and perhaps the first time the rebels have had an edge when compared to Imperials. Common, leave them be, let us rebs have somthing good for once.

Also Ram does cut into armor but the secret is escorting it with infantry. My herd of Tauntauns were making quick work of an AT-ST, but because there were several corp nearby, I had to pull them away from the attack since they were sitting ducks.

Now against the roger-rogers, yeah maybe tauntauns are over powered against a mass infantry faction

Can you go more in depth. Why do you feel like they aren't overpowered? What are some counters? 

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11 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

Can you go more in depth. Why do you feel like they aren't overpowered? What are some counters? 

Okay, maybe im just defensive because I don't want the newest and best rebel unit to be nerfed.

I feel like they are very strong, especially against massed infantry. And a lone armor unit, yeah they'll clean that up.

They are weak to suppression, and multiple attacks to wear down their dodges.

Bosk is a VERY good unit against Tauns, as he is suppressive and is able to generate crits. His hunter also works wonders too. Just don't leave him in the open.

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9 minutes ago, gothound said:

Okay, maybe im just defensive because I don't want the newest and best rebel unit to be nerfed.

I feel like they are very strong, especially against massed infantry. And a lone armor unit, yeah they'll clean that up.

They are weak to suppression, and multiple attacks to wear down their dodges.

Bosk is a VERY good unit against Tauns, as he is suppressive and is able to generate crits. His hunter also works wonders too. Just don't leave him in the open.

I get it. I'm a rebel player (or was). I'm moving to GAR though. 

Bossk would be the perfect counter. Points are a bit of a wash, he's solid against multiple lists too.

Edited by R3dReVenge

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Vader and Palpatine both counter them well. Imperials have the best suppression weapons in the game.

They don't get cover very well and die pretty easily to mass fire. Without the dodge tokens everyone would say they wilt too easily like Every other rebel unit. The difference is that finally, besides Luke, you have a unit that moves fast and can hit hard. Getting both Tauntauns into combat without losing one is harder than you think.

I'd say lets not overreact and lets wait until dewbacks and clones ate released

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2 hours ago, R3dReVenge said:

Can you go more in depth. Why do you feel like they aren't overpowered? What are some counters? 

White surge save means they have an effective hp of 12 (ie 12 hits on average kill both). Add in two dodge and no cover, and you’re looking at 14 hits;

comparably, it would take ~9 hits to eat through a Rebel trooper unit, except they can benefit from cover and dodge (+3 hits per attack) for an effective 12+2 per additional attack hits required.

Yeah, they’re reasonably good on offense but they are not great defensively.

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They get little to no benefit from cover and don't get cover from suppression, so if you can catch them out in the open before they move.

If you can panic them , which is difficult to pull off but very doable as you need 4 suppression tokens they will disappear off the table quickly given that speed 3 move towards the nearest table edge which they will often be near since they are excellent flankers. So mortar fire and deathtroopers  are good against them.

Emporer Palpatine and his ace card will eat them alive. Focus fire will take out some but 3 units running a you, some will get through, finally they aren't great against armour and the new 140 pt unit is a very natural counter to them esp with cover 2 from the outer rim pilot, since they are immune to melee and Ram, and their shots are dice light meaning they will not get enough crits to threaten an airspeeder (or two)

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So, observationally, the issue isn't A unit of Tauntauns, it's multiple units of Tauntauns.  You can maybe suppress down 1 Tauntaun unit and it will get a mere 3 actions (depending on whether you count the free pivot), but that also means you're doing nothing to other 1 or (god have mercy on you for Tauntauns will not) 2 units.  Also, they get cover way easier than people think on the way in (unit leader in the open, throw the joe behind something big).  Their bases are larger than normal, so the 1 template plus base size can actually allow them to toss the joe into heavy cover WAY more often than most people think on the way in (although they generally won't have it when they get to your lines, but at that point, it's probably already over).

-

The other issue is that they aren't prohibited from moving normally while engaged.  Combined with the flexibility of being able to shoot or melee after moving, and you can keep them engaged a lot which allows them to functionally neutralize multiple units at the same time while still getting value.

-

The last issue is just their consistency. With easy access to dodges that are automatic damage mitigation and Ram allowing automatic results, Tauntauns are almost impervious to bad dice.  Not quite because you still have enemy defense dice and if the other player can catch them before they activate, they're out of dodges, but you will find yourself having to confront these automatic results more often than not.  Playing the triple Tauntaun + double T-47 list, my observation was that it's defense and offense was so consistent that it was legitimately hard for the dice to fail hard enough to hurt you...but your opponents dice could totally fail and if this happened in the first 1-2 turns, well, just extend your hand and accept the loss.

-

Tauntauns and the new T-47s are both in the same category in that, one is fine, if annoying.  2+ becomes a serious problem very quickly.

-

...all that being said, if you take Tauntauns away from me, I will end you...nothing personal.

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1 hour ago, Darth evil said:

Over Powered No!

Undercosted Absolutely!

I would argue that being undercoated = overpowered for it's cost. 

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

White surge save means they have an effective hp of 12 (ie 12 hits on average kill both). Add in two dodge and no cover, and you’re looking at 14 hits;

comparably, it would take ~9 hits to eat through a Rebel trooper unit, except they can benefit from cover and dodge (+3 hits per attack) for an effective 12+2 per additional attack hits required.

Yeah, they’re reasonably good on offense but they are not great defensively.

Part of the problem is Tauntauns can use LOS blocking terrain to decrease the number of incoming fire. Since they're so mobile, you can get them into combat turn ~2 and start wrecking havoc.  

18 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

So, observationally, the issue isn't A unit of Tauntauns, it's multiple units of Tauntauns.  You can maybe suppress down 1 Tauntaun unit and it will get a mere 3 actions (depending on whether you count the free pivot), but that also means you're doing nothing to other 1 or (god have mercy on you for Tauntauns will not) 2 units.  Also, they get cover way easier than people think on the way in (unit leader in the open, throw the joe behind something big).  Their bases are larger than normal, so the 1 template plus base size can actually allow them to toss the joe into heavy cover WAY more often than most people think on the way in (although they generally won't have it when they get to your lines, but at that point, it's probably already over).

-

The other issue is that they aren't prohibited from moving normally while engaged.  Combined with the flexibility of being able to shoot or melee after moving, and you can keep them engaged a lot which allows them to functionally neutralize multiple units at the same time while still getting value.

-

The last issue is just their consistency. With easy access to dodges that are automatic damage mitigation and Ram allowing automatic results, Tauntauns are almost impervious to bad dice.  Not quite because you still have enemy defense dice and if the other player can catch them before they activate, they're out of dodges, but you will find yourself having to confront these automatic results more often than not.  Playing the triple Tauntaun + double T-47 list, my observation was that it's defense and offense was so consistent that it was legitimately hard for the dice to fail hard enough to hurt you...but your opponents dice could totally fail and if this happened in the first 1-2 turns, well, just extend your hand and accept the loss.

-

Tauntauns and the new T-47s are both in the same category in that, one is fine, if annoying.  2+ becomes a serious problem very quickly.

-

...all that being said, if you take Tauntauns away from me, I will end you...nothing personal.

The bolded is what I noticed in my small sample size of games. They are much harder to take down then some people claim and the amount of free actions they get is insane!

I have yet to play with the new T-47s. But a 45 point reduction makes them very reasonable now (I was pushing for a 20-30 point reduction). Time will tell to see how it all plays out, but I see 2-3 units of Tauntauns being a staple in rebel lists. 

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I think they’re a little too hard a counter to the old meta.  They just mess with infantry units like crazy.  If I could change one thing about them it would be to make them speed 2 with spur.  Dewbacks are going to be a PITA but at least they aren’t going to be rocketing around the field bowling over units with no downside.  

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1 hour ago, R3dReVenge said:

I would argue that being undercoated = overpowered for it's cost. 

Part of the problem is Tauntauns can use LOS blocking terrain to decrease the number of incoming fire. Since they're so mobile, you can get them into combat turn ~2 and start wrecking havoc.  

The bolded is what I noticed in my small sample size of games. They are much harder to take down then some people claim and the amount of free actions they get is insane!

I have yet to play with the new T-47s. But a 45 point reduction makes them very reasonable now (I was pushing for a 20-30 point reduction). Time will tell to see how it all plays out, but I see 2-3 units of Tauntauns being a staple in rebel lists. 

I was fairly satisfied with T-47 performance at the original cost, that was in a list with Chewbacca. So basically they just gave that list +105 points and the lists I’ve played against lately would have suffered a 12 point increase on the strike teams and another +4 for the emergency stims; which they couldn’t afford having been at 800 already.

A swing of 121 points would have turned close games into simple victories. No question. 

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1 hour ago, R3dReVenge said:

I would argue that being undercoated = overpowered for it's cost. 

Part of the problem is Tauntauns can use LOS blocking terrain to decrease the number of incoming fire. Since they're so mobile, you can get them into combat turn ~2 and start wrecking havoc.  

The bolded is what I noticed in my small sample size of games. They are much harder to take down then some people claim and the amount of free actions they get is insane!

I have yet to play with the new T-47s. But a 45 point reduction makes them very reasonable now (I was pushing for a 20-30 point reduction). Time will tell to see how it all plays out, but I see 2-3 units of Tauntauns being a staple in rebel lists. 

The free actions give them mainly dodge tokens though, which reduces noncrit incoming damage . IE they get pseudo heavy cover for one attack , so I don't see it as "free actions" but as a replacement to give them survivability that they lose from having lost the ability to put themselves into cover. Assuming they get to act first. So personally I don't see it as "action efficiency" but as tactical cover replacement. Imagine if the unit didn't get those dodges on the way into combat, the unit would be pretty bad then. just about every shot would count against them on some boards. No cover and having to dodge each round would mean they would have little to no impact on the board. The dodge is there to up their survivability to relatively normal levels for a trooper unit. Yes , it is better if you've moved, but much worse if you havent.

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4 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

So, observationally, the issue isn't A unit of Tauntauns, it's multiple units of Tauntauns.  You can maybe suppress down 1 Tauntaun unit and it will get a mere 3 actions (depending on whether you count the free pivot), but that also means you're doing nothing to other 1 or (god have mercy on you for Tauntauns will not) 2 units.  Also, they get cover way easier than people think on the way in (unit leader in the open, throw the joe behind something big).  Their bases are larger than normal, so the 1 template plus base size can actually allow them to toss the joe into heavy cover WAY more often than most people think on the way in (although they generally won't have it when they get to your lines, but at that point, it's probably already over).

-

The other issue is that they aren't prohibited from moving normally while engaged.  Combined with the flexibility of being able to shoot or melee after moving, and you can keep them engaged a lot which allows them to functionally neutralize multiple units at the same time while still getting value.

-

The last issue is just their consistency. With easy access to dodges that are automatic damage mitigation and Ram allowing automatic results, Tauntauns are almost impervious to bad dice.  Not quite because you still have enemy defense dice and if the other player can catch them before they activate, they're out of dodges, but you will find yourself having to confront these automatic results more often than not.  Playing the triple Tauntaun + double T-47 list, my observation was that it's defense and offense was so consistent that it was legitimately hard for the dice to fail hard enough to hurt you...but your opponents dice could totally fail and if this happened in the first 1-2 turns, well, just extend your hand and accept the loss.

-

Tauntauns and the new T-47s are both in the same category in that, one is fine, if annoying.  2+ becomes a serious problem very quickly.

-

...all that being said, if you take Tauntauns away from me, I will end you...nothing personal.

Did snipers only come as singles in a list?

In a vacuum, a single unit of tauntans isn't that bad. 2-3 units in a wider army though........being paired with the t47 is a great example. The suggestion from the battle reports isn't that the new changes make them (t47's) stellar, but when paired with the threat of tauntans that should be the priority they can wreak havoc in relative peace, and cover or not they are doing it better than anything else for 200 or so points could. And the same applies to anything else in the heavy, sf, or operative spots you want to pair with them.

 

The only silver lining for the empire (and just the empire, mind you) is they hit harder in melee that shooting at them, assuming they surivev the ram and can activate to hit back.

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Wait...so the main complaint is that the general netlist of 3 sniper teams and max infantry hasn't figured out how to deal with 3 units of polar camels in the 4 weeks since their release. 

It's good to have counters in the game, it makes more list types viable which encourages smart play rather than netlisting. I like balance. Not to mention majority of the players who are casual players can enjoy the hame as well.

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4 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

Wait...so the main complaint is that the general netlist of 3 sniper teams and max infantry hasn't figured out how to deal with 3 units of polar camels in the 4 weeks since their release. 

It's good to have counters in the game, it makes more list types viable which encourages smart play rather than netlisting. I like balance. Not to mention majority of the players who are casual players can enjoy the hame as well.

No the complaint is the 3 polar camels is the new netlist, and it's stronger than the snipers ever were

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I thought they were snow kangaroos?  

 

Anywho, I would tend to answer that yes, Tauntauns are overpowered.  That's not to say they are broken, like I frequently think Sabine is, just that they are far more powerful and good than they have any right to be.  Afterall, other than be strangled in about 3 seconds by a Wampa and later be used as a sleeping bag for Luke, what do they actually do?  Their action economy is ridiculously good, and I'm expecting that if they do end up making a big impact, we'll see the free dodges reduced to one per activation.  People talk about suppression being a counter, but I've never really seen that be a problem for them; simply slap endurance on, and their chances of panicking are virtually nill, and 3 actions (move, dodge, shoot) for a single action when suppressed is nothing to scoff at.  One of the normal answers to cavalry was to get into a building or man walls and firing down on them; for whatever reason, they made it so creature troopers can climb as well.  This is especially dumb when you realize that emplacement troopers can't climb/clamber, even up ladders or stairs, but somehow a kangaroos or overgrown iguana can.  Odd.

Now, as far as counters go, my experience is limited.  Not to sound arrogant, but I've never had too much trouble with them, as I tend to play defensive and wait for the tauntauns to charge into my gunlines.  The local players are still learning how to use them properly, so I've also got that going for me.  E-Webs are decent counters, as a good roll should give you enough hits/crits to punch through their dodges, as are Force users like Obi-Wan.  Suppressive weapons might help, though as I said above, I'm not seeing them as the answer others are.  I'd say one that that usually works for me is to hit tauntauns fast and hit them hard before they can activate.  Besides the normal benefits of giving them suppression that might or might not matter, your chances of doing damage are much better when they don't have dodge tokens.  It's not always an option, as good players will try to pull their tuantauns back, but at least its something. 

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