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7 minutes ago, phillos said:

My concern is not money.  It's time and opportunity.  I'm more disappointed that they are using slots in a hero pack that could have otherwise been allocated to an excited new card.  Financially what they are talking about is pretty insignificant and really is preferable to the old system where your redundant purchases were all front loaded at the beginning when you bought several core sets.  Here it's rationed out throughout the life of the game in extremely small increments and it's filling a function that's understandable.  It's still better IMO.  I just was kinda hoping we'd have no redundancy at all this time around since as someone who will buy all the packs and will deck build it benefits me very little.

Well most people get into LCGs to get away from annoying aspects of the CCG release formats.  So I'm not sure that answer is gonna satisfy LCG die hards :)

New cards? We are easily getting 30 new cards worth of design. How much do you need in a set?

We are getting way more player cards design space than cycles in Arkham, and that isnt even counting the Hero cards.

What card are they going to add to the Cap deck instead of Av Mansion? They want a card that gives you some draw.

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Just now, Radix2309 said:

New cards? We are easily getting 30 new cards worth of design. How much do you need in a set?

We are getting way more player cards design space than cycles in Arkham, and that isnt even counting the Hero cards.

What card are they going to add to the Cap deck instead of Av Mansion? They want a card that gives you some draw.

A reprint is always going to be less exciting that a new card design.  Agree or disagree?

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1 minute ago, phillos said:

A reprint is always going to be less exciting that a new card design.  Agree or disagree?

Agree. But this game is more thanjust buying new cards. I dont want to buy a strictly worse Avengers Mansion. Nor do I want the Avengers Mansion I already have to become obsolete by power creep.

And there are only so many ways to create a balanced variant of it. Of course sometimes they will make something new. But I see no reason to flood with new cards if it doesnt need it. It lets them conserve design space for when they need it.

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29 minutes ago, Radix2309 said:

Agree. But this game is more thanjust buying new cards. I dont want to buy a strictly worse Avengers Mansion. Nor do I want the Avengers Mansion I already have to become obsolete by power creep.

And there are only so many ways to create a balanced variant of it. Of course sometimes they will make something new. But I see no reason to flood with new cards if it doesnt need it. It lets them conserve design space for when they need it.

How many ways do we have to draw a card in Arkham?  I think that just adds flavor to deck design and theme.  I don't think it bloats the game or unbalances it.  If card draw always comes from Avengers Mansion being included in your deck that's the opposite problem.  That's Gandalf goes in every LOTR deck.  That's stagnation.  I'm not saying this game has that problem, but I'd hate for them to just get comfortable with staples.  L5R had this problem early on where the neutrals from the core set basically flooded deck space and made decks a bit uninteresting.

It's more than buying new cards, but seeing new cards and playing new cards also slot in with that statement.  Every new card lets you look at the pool in a different way and helps shake up your deck designs.  I don't want there to be a defacto way to generate resources and draw cards in this game.  That sounds horrible.  I want those two resource neutrals and Avengers Mansions to disappear as soon as possible from being auto includes.  In fact ideally there are no auto includes in this game.  An ideal is seldom realized especially in a moving target like this, but I think that should still be the ideal.

Add:  Also I'm not entirely sold that we are getting more player cards here than in Arkham.  The cards are split between a hero pack and a villain pack for this game.  So while we are getting more unique cards per pack here we also aren't allocating any space to encounter cards in the hero pack.  So if you averaged the hero cards per month over all pack releases you probably still average the same level of player card growth per month throughout the life of the game.  There's some other variables floating around like this game has more 1x and 3x inclusions in this card pool while Arkham is mostly 2x includes (myriad and bonding cards being obvious exceptions).  It probably still averages out to be the same.

That said I do believe Caleb when he says he's gonna be conservative with his option to reprint cards.  So I don't expect them to be a majority contributor to the pack composition.  I've made my piece with it, but I still would prefer it was the other way.

Edited by phillos

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6 hours ago, phillos said:

How many ways do we have to draw a card in Arkham?  I think that just adds flavor to deck design and theme.  I don't think it bloats the game or unbalances it.  If card draw always comes from Avengers Mansion being included in your deck that's the opposite problem.  That's Gandalf goes in every LOTR deck.  That's stagnation.  I'm not saying this game has that problem, but I'd hate for them to just get comfortable with staples.  L5R had this problem early on where the neutrals from the core set basically flooded deck space and made decks a bit uninteresting.

It's more than buying new cards, but seeing new cards and playing new cards also slot in with that statement.  Every new card lets you look at the pool in a different way and helps shake up your deck designs.  I don't want there to be a defacto way to generate resources and draw cards in this game.  That sounds horrible.  I want those two resource neutrals and Avengers Mansions to disappear as soon as possible from being auto includes.  In fact ideally there are no auto includes in this game.  An ideal is seldom realized especially in a moving target like this, but I think that should still be the ideal.

Add:  Also I'm not entirely sold that we are getting more player cards here than in Arkham.  The cards are split between a hero pack and a villain pack for this game.  So while we are getting more unique cards per pack here we also aren't allocating any space to encounter cards in the hero pack.  So if you averaged the hero cards per month over all pack releases you probably still average the same level of player card growth per month throughout the life of the game.  There's some other variables floating around like this game has more 1x and 3x inclusions in this card pool while Arkham is mostly 2x includes (myriad and bonding cards being obvious exceptions).  It probably still averages out to be the same.

That said I do believe Caleb when he says he's gonna be conservative with his option to reprint cards.  So I don't expect them to be a majority contributor to the pack composition.  I've made my piece with it, but I still would prefer it was the other way.

If the card draw were all generics, than yeah, it’s imbalancing to the game design to cram that much of a great mechanic into a single deck. 

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On September 11, 2019 at 2:30 AM, Tonbo Karasu said:

I recall hearing somewhere that more people only ever played out of the Core Box for LCGs than bought any expansions.  We are the unusual people.

I remember seeing that as well, but I can't remember where.  I think it was in the same discussion, though, that someone from FFG said that the core sets made the least profit (per unit) because they were more expensive to produce.  But they sell many, many more of them than any expansions.  I think it might have been from an AMA on Reddit, but don't quote me on that.

 

On the topic of reprints in hero packs, I'm a little disappointed in that, especially this early in a game.  But I think some people are significantly overreacting.  It is neither the best thing in the  world or the worst thing in the world, but some of the posts act like it's akin to FFG personally slapping them in the face....

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16 hours ago, xchan said:

Half deck is as good or better is all you are planning to buy is a single core and play multiplayer with friends.

And I'm not arguing that hero decks are not a good products. I argue that reprints are not needed in them.

They already upped the price of the core set so they could include a full playset of every card in it. Then, they decided that the higher price was just not enough so they are also reselling us some of those cards to make even more proffit out of us.

I find that pretty annoying since I was planning on playing this solo. I didn't felt the need to buy second cores of LotR or Arkham for solo play. MC is far more expensive to me. Not only because the core is priced higher, but because I will get useless cards every now and then with new product.

I don't buy the excuse that people is making for them. Those cards won't make decks more effective or playable out of the box. Most of the decks I played doesn't run resource cards because I prefer to play mostly low cost cards (and I don't see myself changing that anytime soon), and once the cardpool grows bigger, they will become even more useless. Those are not "staple" cards let alone mandatory.

To me, they are just lazy, and want to exploit us more by reselling us the same stuff.

Do you ever wonder when people buy Magic they think the same thing about land  cards? Of course they dont. 

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11 hours ago, DarkFallenAngel said:

Do you ever wonder when people buy Magic they think the same thing about land  cards? Of course they dont. 

Land cards are a necessity to play the game. Any reprints in this won't be a necessity. It's hardly the same thing.

And, everyone hates pulling land cards from packs. They'd much rather have tokens or have the land cards all just come in starters. Also, MtG at least does alternate art for them. If FFG does alt art for the reprints, that would be a better option. I doubt they do that, but won't know until we see the pack.

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On 9/12/2019 at 1:02 PM, player4273900 said:

The good news is that you have all the informations (a core set with all the cards but at a higher price and hero packs with reprints) before buying anything. If the reprints are such an issue for you, you can forget this game without losing 70  euros in the core set and the first scenario pack.

It's almost like it's in no way exploitive at all.

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It's weird.  It almost as if FFG is trying to make this game as accessable as possible.  Creating a core game with all the cards and tokens needed to play a 4 player game.  Creating expansion decks that can played out of the box. How dare they

 

I realize the internet isn't the greatest place for this, but I was being sarcastic

Edited by Turtlefan2082

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Thats really not the issue.  Making the game as approachable as possible is a good goal,  but that doesn't wash away the annoying aspects of it.  Its healthy to have both positive and negative feelings about a thing.  Its definitely better than the old system from a casual players perspective and will make selling the game easier for us when trying to attract new players at the game store.  Its just a shame we cant ever seem to get away from card redundancy in a successful collectible card game.  That said in the video Caleb seemed pretty cognizant that it will be a concern.  So i have faith that he will use that option responsibly and depending on the cards he picks it can be less wasteful.

Edited by phillos

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All these cool Cap cards and this is were the conversation went. Reprints.

I think Cap looks amazing, start with the shield and he’s 2,2,3 11 hit points and retaliate and ally cost reducer and an easy ready ability .  Nice.

shield block and toss are crazy!  4 damage onto as many enemies as cards you discard?  Is this the single most powerful and flexible card in the game??? 

Oh and the leadership cards look pretty good too, did I see ghost Rider? What? If ghost rider is in the game I’m gonna loose my s***

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22 minutes ago, Ywingscum said:

All these cool Cap cards and this is were the conversation went. Reprints.

I think Cap looks amazing, start with the shield and he’s 2,2,3 11 hit points and retaliate and ally cost reducer and an easy ready ability .  Nice.

shield block and toss are crazy!  4 damage onto as many enemies as cards you discard?  Is this the single most powerful and flexible card in the game??? 

Oh and the leadership cards look pretty good too, did I see ghost Rider? What? If ghost rider is in the game I’m gonna loose my s***

I like how we’re getting a real spectrum of power moves that can really change how a game goes; can’t wait to try out all the different combos.

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6 hours ago, Turtlefan2082 said:

It could be worse.  The game could be randomized like CCGs or uniques

Uniques don’t require deck building though. (In which case, repeats really wouldn’t matter). 

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On 9/11/2019 at 4:21 AM, Supertoe said:

Also, you can't play she-hulk and iron man together using precons. That alone will drive people to at least swap out aspects.

 

Actually you can, the learn to play guide suggests that if you want to play Iron-Man and She-Hulk together, that you use the listed precon Agression deck for Iron-Man and swap the Agression cards in the She-Hulk deck with the Justice cards from the Spiderman precon deck.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KJCFYajZcH96HBuy6

 

LTC

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LCGs have a huge accessibility problem. Is having a few reprints annoying, yes. But it in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. Making sure the game is always cheaply accessible will go a long in keeping the game live and thriving, which is beneficial for everyone.

Edited by Lily Chen

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It's healthy to criticize.  That way they understand the weight of their decisions, and that there is a concern.  I'll praise FFG when I think they are doing great things and give them a sideways look when I'm not as excited with their decisions.  Clearly I've done nothing but praise this game until they confirmed reprints and I still stand behind all that praise.

How big a deal it is depends on how much they fall back on this option, and how they utilize it.  We still don't understand how prolific reprints will be yet.  When I see the cap deck I'll have a much more concrete opinion.

Edited by phillos

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Assuming reprints aren't half the pack, the current design provides more new playable hero cards in the pack than the current pack design on Arkham Horror and LOTR.  Splitting hero and villain (e.g. player and encounter packs) does far more to boost player value than a few reprints does to reduce it.

 

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1 hour ago, Buhallin said:

Assuming reprints aren't half the pack, the current design provides more new playable hero cards in the pack than the current pack design on Arkham Horror and LOTR.  Splitting hero and villain (e.g. player and encounter packs) does far more to boost player value than a few reprints does to reduce it.

 

With 20 cards in the pack dedicated to a specific hero, your deckbuilding pool is going to grow slower than Arkham and LotR. Sure you can use the hero in the pack and have a whole level of new options, but if you're a Spider-man fan and really only want to play him, or if you hate the released hero and will never play them, then your new deckbuilding options for a hero pack are probably about 150% as much as an Arkham or LotR one. But, the packs come out less frequently. The player options in this game are going to grow and evolve slower than any of the other LCGs. Which is my biggest gripe about reprints. The deckbuilding pool will already change slowly and they are going to waste slots for new cards with reprints that I'll probably throw away.

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13 minutes ago, gokubb said:

With 20 cards in the pack dedicated to a specific hero, your deckbuilding pool is going to grow slower than Arkham and LotR. Sure you can use the hero in the pack and have a whole level of new options, but if you're a Spider-man fan and really only want to play him, or if you hate the released hero and will never play them, then your new deckbuilding options for a hero pack are probably about 150% as much as an Arkham or LotR one. But, the packs come out less frequently. The player options in this game are going to grow and evolve slower than any of the other LCGs. Which is my biggest gripe about reprints. The deckbuilding pool will already change slowly and they are going to waste slots for new cards with reprints that I'll probably throw away.

The release rate isn't going to be any lower.  A full hero/villain pack cycle will give you about as many as you would get from hero cards from the half of two releases you get now.

New heroes most certainly grow the playable pool.  If someone refuses to ever play anyone but Spider-Man then sure, packs won't have much for them, but it's not any better for Arkham or LOTR if I only ever play Guardains or Lore or even Erestor decks.  And honestly, new heroes will do more to increase variation in play options than a few more new cards per pack ever would.

 

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I sure hope all this complaining about something silly doesnt actually stop them from doing reprints.  

I get why people arent fans but the doing reprints to make playable decks is a GREAT design choice.  Though I like deck building I often dont have time, now I can just get my hero and go.  

 

Sounds great to me!

Edited by Tarliyn

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2 hours ago, gokubb said:

With 20 cards in the pack dedicated to a specific hero, your deckbuilding pool is going to grow slower than Arkham and LotR. Sure you can use the hero in the pack and have a whole level of new options, but if you're a Spider-man fan and really only want to play him, or if you hate the released hero and will never play them, then your new deckbuilding options for a hero pack are probably about 150% as much as an Arkham or LotR one. But, the packs come out less frequently. The player options in this game are going to grow and evolve slower than any of the other LCGs. Which is my biggest gripe about reprints. The deckbuilding pool will already change slowly and they are going to waste slots for new cards with reprints that I'll probably throw away.

The packs come with 37 non-Hero specific cards. On average that should be 15ish new cards. Arkham usually has 9-12 new cards per pack. 

The Hero packs come out seemingly 66% of the time that Arkham packs come out. But keep in mind that you are ignoring a whole part of the pack that adds increasing diversity.

If you are only playing Spider-man of course a large portion of the cardpool will decrease for you.

And if even 1 Hero interests you, there are enough cards to compensate for the reduced number of packs. Most people aren't going to commit to a single hero forever.

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