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Jedu

Sun Fac cost - how many is too many?

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13 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

Perhaps; not that quick builds are a rock solid indication, but seeing almost every single one for the Nantex with two talent slots does at least open the question.

I am more than happy to be wrong, I would use them every time on Sun, my only worry is that if they did it, would it be the start of power creep 1.0 style???

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57 minutes ago, AgentoftheEmpire said:

Since Sun Fac will be heavily involved with tractor tokens, he better be **** expensive. Tractoring your opponent is a super powerful effect in 2.0 and is not fun to play against.

At a recent tournament I played against Asajj and 3x Gunrunners. Was ace... I won, but double guessing possible tractor positioning was a pain. 

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4 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

I think the designers have made these talents polar opposites so it makes you choose between play styles. I think giving you both would be beyond broken. 

Sun at rng 1 of a victim has 4-5 die, it has -1 defense die, plus Sun has a reroll on his green die. Seems a bit silly IMO. 

Sun’s effects would only trigger when the opponent is Tractored. That is a specific condition that requires 2-3 tokens on ships above Small. In a 1v1 against an ARC or Asajj, both talents do nearly nothing for him. Ensnare’s one saving grace in this situation is that he can at leastt get rid of his tractor token after rotating his arc.

That’s the toughest balancing challenge for him. He can terrorize small ship aces, but is easily abused by large ships.

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7 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Sun’s effects would only trigger when the opponent is Tractored. That is a specific condition that requires 2-3 tokens on ships above Small. In a 1v1 against an ARC or Asajj, both talents do nearly nothing for him. Ensnare’s one saving grace in this situation is that he can at leastt get rid of his tractor token after rotating his arc.

That’s the toughest balancing challenge for him. He can terrorize small ship aces, but is easily abused by large ships.

You are partially correct, you only need to be tractored to boost/barrel roll the enemy ship, this as you say can cause some change in flying style for Sun. It is important to note that, during the Engagement Phase, a ship with one or more tractor tokens rolls one fewer defense die. Still means ships like the YT1300 and ARC are rolling 0 Defense die. 

Edited by Archangelspiv

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10 hours ago, apoapsis said:

Polish quick build from the Legion Krakow group

70283279_935655640149229_2906273261031522304_o.thumb.jpg.d29b5010a1021143f7708e54d7698a22.jpg

That's afterburners, predator, shield upgrade and possibly ensnare for 3 threat. Note that most of the quick builds have two talents, so it's likely actually like that for the ship. Two of the quick builds have 2 mods so that's possible too.

  • Sun Fac
    • Predator
    • Ensnare
    • Shield Upgrade
    • Afterburners
  • Chertek
    • Gravitational Deflection
    • 'Decoy'? (Juke? There's one in the expansion)
    • Targeting Computer
  • Petranaki Arena Ace
    • Ensnare
    • Snap Shot
    • Stealth Device
  • Berwer Kret
    • Ensnare
    • Snap Shot
    • Hull Upgrade
  • Gorgol
    • Gravitational Deflection
    • Shield Upgrade
    • Stealth Device
  • Stalgasin Hive Guard
    • Gravitational Deflection
    • Ensnare
    • Targeting Computer

 

 

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1 hour ago, Vespid1311 said:

As a Starviper player, Do Not Like the Nantex.
Curved Barrel Roll Tractors SUCK.

Ensnare ought to be priced High.

It's not you performing the barrel roll if you're tractored by the enemy, though. It says when you perform, not when this ship performs.

"Microthrusters: While you perform a barrel roll, you must use the Icon maneuver bank leftor Icon maneuver bank right template instead of the Icon maneuver straight template"

I agree ensnare should be expensive, though if it is, then Chertek and Sun Fac should be cheap as it basically toggles their pilot ability on/off.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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5 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It's not you performing the barrel roll if you're tractored by the enemy, though. It says when you perform, not when this ship performs.

...except the Rules Reference says otherwise:

"
Q: Does the StarViper-class Attack Platform’s ship ability (Microthrusters) apply to the barrel roll that results from becoming tractored?
A: Microthrusters does affect this barrel roll. The player whose effect assigned the tractor token determines the direction and position of the template.
"

:(

EDIT
Sun Fac with Afterburners terrifies me.

Edited by Vespid1311
Sun Fac

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17 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It's not you performing the barrel roll if you're tractored by the enemy, though. It says when you perform, not when this ship performs.

'you' and 'this ship' are synonymous on x-wing cards.

 

'You' on cards always refers to the ship, not the player.

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4 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

You are partially correct, you only need to be tractored to boost/barrel roll the enemy ship, this as you say can cause some change in flying style for Sun. It is important to note that, during the Engagement Phase, a ship with one or more tractor tokens rolls one fewer defense die. Still means ships like the YT1300 and ARC are rolling 0 Defense die. 

Are you sure about -1 green die effect on a big ship with a single tractor token? No offence, it just seems to me unlikely (but what do I know).

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59 minutes ago, Jedu said:

Are you sure about -1 green die effect on a big ship with a single tractor token? No offence, it just seems to me unlikely (but what do I know).

I am 100% sure. I copied and pasted straight from the rules reference, is why the fonts are different , different size too. I added the bit about the YT and ARC though  

No offence taken mate, I had to double check myself. 

Edited by Archangelspiv

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5 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

That’s the toughest balancing challenge for him. He can terrorize small ship aces, but is easily abused by large ships.

On the other hand, the larger your base, the easier the task of lining up that 3-dice centreline (which if he has a 'spare' talent upgrade might well pack predator as well); going from a 2-dice attack to a 3-dice attack with a 1-dice reroll is near enough double your firepower.

and yes, @Archangelspiv is correct. You lose a green die if you have any tractor tokens, but you're only 'tractored' (which lets you reposition and triggers Sun Fac and Chertek's abilities) if you have a number appropriate to your base size.

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13 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

EDIT: the Tractored status may also need errata, as the current text would imply that Fac could pull off a double move at the end of activation by triggering PTA, using the tractor token to move, using Ensnare to give the token to a friendly wingbug, and then that bug uses Ensnare to move Fac again. Not sure the value of this, but it's like pulling off a speed-3 straight boost.

Why would this need an errata?  Seems like a valid sequence to me.  This is no different than a ship being able to boost + barrel roll in the same turn. 

Actually, its worse.  First of all you can't change facing. Secondly you need an entire second ship, and they both have to keep each other in the firing arc for this to even work.

It's more like any ship running alongside something that can coordinate.   

The main difference is that this is 2 of the same moves  (2x straight boost or 2x barrel roll to one side).

But in terms of game breaking, I don't think so.

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40 minutes ago, Bort said:

Why would this need an errata?  Seems like a valid sequence to me.  This is no different than a ship being able to boost + barrel roll in the same turn. 

Since I assume he has access to modifications (as several rather than just one come in the pack) and all quick builds have one (not just the odd one or two), he could have afterburners. At that point he can really pull some hijinks:

  • Execute Manouvre
  • Boost Self (via boost action via afterburners)
  • Boost Self (via tractored effect via pinpoint tractor array)
  • Boost Opponent (via tractored effect via ensnare)
  • Boost Self (via tractored effect via ensnare from a wingbug)

since boosting from tractored is a boost not a boost action, nothing stops you doing the same thing repeatedly if you have viable triggers.

Equally (and perhaps more practically if no less confusingly), you can use 'tractor-jitsu throws' with multiple ensnare-equipped Nantex wingbugs:

  • A and B have their arc pointed forward at enemy X
  • B executes a manoeuvre
  • A executes a manoeuvre
  • A uses pinpoint tractor array to generate a tractor token, swings its mobile arc towards B and rolls next to B
  • A uses ensnare to pass the tractor token to B
  • B uses the tractored effect to boost next to enemy X
  • B uses ensnare to pass the tractor token to enemy X
  • B uses the tractored effect to reposition enemy X out of arc/onto an obstacle/whatever

 

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How you counter these nimble fighters then? With Bombs? I could see making their life uneasy with some fused seismic bombs or proton bombs.

Im not sure how people feel about Electron-Proton Bombs but I have liked them a lot in casual games also for lack of my collection to fill some points.. 

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29 minutes ago, Zazaa32 said:

How you counter these nimble fighters then? With Bombs? I could see making their life uneasy with some fused seismic bombs or proton bombs.

Im not sure how people feel about Electron-Proton Bombs but I have liked them a lot in casual games also for lack of my collection to fill some points.. 

Or numbers, hit points or defensive tokens. They might hop all over the place, but they have an unreliable gun and generally only get single mods. Sun Fac is not likely to do serious damage to a TIE Fighter, Vulture or Torrent swarm, taking a shield or two off Chiraneau or Lando doesn't do all that much, and a v1 or Defender will just shrug off his attack most of the time.

He can also be blocked, same as Soontir, Fenn or Poe.

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31 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Or numbers, hit points or defensive tokens. They might hop all over the place, but they have an unreliable gun and generally only get single mods. Sun Fac is not likely to do serious damage to a TIE Fighter, Vulture or Torrent swarm, taking a shield or two off Chiraneau or Lando doesn't do all that much, and a v1 or Defender will just shrug off his attack most of the time.

He can also be blocked, same as Soontir, Fenn or Poe.

He can't be blocked as effectively, since PTA doesn't require you to fully execute the manoeuvre.


The biggest counter to them is... just shooting them.  They're made of tissue paper and will usually have only one token.  Layer your arcs, make killboxes, take the shots.

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I probably should t be making suggestions at this point, but more tokens are needed for enemy ships increase in size, I suppose if Nantex/Ensnare lists become heavy meta, large ships would be a counter of sorts, right? 

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3 minutes ago, K-2SO said:

I probably should t be making suggestions at this point, but more tokens are needed for enemy ships increase in size, I suppose if Nantex/Ensnare lists become heavy meta, large ships would be a counter of sorts, right? 

I supposed it could, but I dont think Nantex will make huge impact to the meta. It is still good on paper but im not yet too convinced that it will do that well on table and even less against any medium or large ship.

BUT it will offer so much fun for casual gaming that I dont even care whats up with meta anyway! 

"Do not try and bend the meta, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth...there is no meta. Then you'll see that it is not the meta that bends, it is only yourself." 😀

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41 minutes ago, K-2SO said:

I probably should t be making suggestions at this point, but more tokens are needed for enemy ships increase in size, I suppose if Nantex/Ensnare lists become heavy meta, large ships would be a counter of sorts, right? 

Yes and no. If nantex are cheap, have a 3-dice centreline and a 'spare' elite upgrade so they can have predator easily, then I would be very hesitant about engaging them with easy-to-bullseye large based ships.

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3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Since I assume he has access to modifications (as several rather than just one come in the pack) and all quick builds have one (not just the odd one or two), he could have afterburners. At that point he can really pull some hijinks:

  • Execute Manouvre
  • Boost Self (via boost action via afterburners)
  • Boost Self (via tractored effect via pinpoint tractor array)
  • Boost Opponent (via tractored effect via ensnare)
  • Boost Self (via tractored effect via ensnare from a wingbug)

since boosting from tractored is a boost not a boost action, nothing stops you doing the same thing repeatedly if you have viable triggers.

Equally (and perhaps more practically if no less confusingly), you can use 'tractor-jitsu throws' with multiple ensnare-equipped Nantex wingbugs:

  • A and B have their arc pointed forward at enemy X
  • B executes a manoeuvre
  • A executes a manoeuvre
  • A uses pinpoint tractor array to generate a tractor token, swings its mobile arc towards B and rolls next to B
  • A uses ensnare to pass the tractor token to B
  • B uses the tractored effect to boost next to enemy X
  • B uses ensnare to pass the tractor token to enemy X
  • B uses the tractored effect to reposition enemy X out of arc/onto an obstacle/whatever

 

Sure, I'm not denying that the Nantex will be able to do some amazing stuff. But its no more amazing than what Echo or Guri with Advanced sensors can do.

All I said is that I don't think the fact that it can do (to use your word) tractor-jitsu requires any errata on how tractors works.

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