Jump to content
Jedu

Sun Fac cost - how many is too many?

Recommended Posts

So, the costing of Nantex with Ensnare talent will be the main factor which will decide whether the ship, especially Sun Fac, sees play. 

If it's costed too prohibilitly, it will maybe have some table time only in casual, for fun games. Cost it over 70 points and it won't see any competitive play. This is my point of view. I saw that some of you were considering and trying to predict Sun Fac's cost and how many points would be too many. So, how do you think? 

Taking into consideration it's manouverability, it'similar to interceptor, BUT:

- less blue manouvers,

- only bullseye 3 dice and 2dice in the rotating arc (for the cost of tractor token),

-no other means to reposition, than to take tractor token,

- 4 hull, but protected by 3/2 green dice.

Chasiss is similar, but seems weaker, than TIE Interceptor's chasiss. So, Sun Fac should cost maximum 48points (3 less than Soontir). His ability is almost useless without Ensnare or other Nantexes in the squadron. But with ensnare - he shines. How much than Ensnare should cost? If it cost that many points, that it elevates Sun Fac to, let's say, 72 points (Ensnare over 20pts would be insane but... Who knows), would you play him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without Ensnare, the best comparison to a Nantex I can think of is an RZ-2 A-Wing.  2 dice turret, 3 agility, 4 health.  I could totally see a generic Nantex coming in at the same price-point.  But Ensnare--particularly on Sun Fac--is super scary.  I almost expect Squad Leader level pricing for Ensnare, because it's got the potential to be game-breaking.

I'm not convinced that a 70 point Sun Fac sees no play, because Sun Fac can do a sequence like this: move (maybe even bumping), rotate their arc (maybe moving their ship into a better position), pass the tractor to someone else with Ensnare (maybe moving the opponent onto a rock to deny them a shot on anyone), and then take a 3-4 dice turret shot against reduced agility, or maybe even 4-5 dice bullseye shot.  Blocking doesn't help much against them, since they can still use their tractor shenanigans.

Soontir is classic, Fenn Rau hits like a truck, but Sun Fac can make the biggest impact on the game-state of any Init 6 ace.  I mean, I can't possibly see myself bringing rocks with any small-base ace list in the future--there's too much potential just get absolutely wrecked by Sun Fac.

That said, Sun Fac probably has higher crash-and-burn potential than the other aces.  Seems possible to guess wrong, have the arc pointed in the "right" direction so you'll have to make a choice between two potentially bad decisions: not using tractors to have a turret shot (maybe sitting somewhere unpleasant), or using tractors to move, and denying yourself a shot.

//

TL,DR: Tractors STRONG.  Sun Fac scary.  High cost.

*edit* hey, pretty much right!

Edited by theBitterFig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tractors are good, but SUn's ability will only fire with Ensnare against a small base ship.  Medium and large bases aren't tractored until they have enough tokens.

 

Sun is strong, but I wouldn't peg him at Soontir levels, let alone Fenn levels, even with Ensnare.  Both are far more nimble and far more survivable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

61-65 for Sun Fac with Ensnare, sub 50 without, just to prevent taking him with 7 drones with struts. I really think people are overestimating how good he's going to end up being. He can't reposition without taking a tractor, and that tractor passing only happens at 0-1, also he cannot angle his boosts. He's going to be an easy ship to catch out if you know what you're doing. The turret mechanic on it is finicky and will likely take some getting used to, and has the real potential to screw you up if you have it in the wrong quadrant. He is as far from a plug and play pilot as you can get. And when you do get everything aligned and he works, it's basically the equivalent of Fenn Rau.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What mods you would be using on him? Im seeing him being pretty overpowering against aces and other small ships at right hands till it gets catched in enemy arc that it can avoid but green dice wont save him, only arc dodgeing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Tractors are good, but SUn's ability will only fire with Ensnare against a small base ship.  Medium and large bases aren't tractored until they have enough tokens.

 

Sun is strong, but I wouldn't peg him at Soontir levels, let alone Fenn levels, even with Ensnare.  Both are far more nimble and far more survivable.

There are a lot of small ships in the meta. It’d really be a shame if your Vader / Soontir / Whisper / Anakin / Obi-Wan / etc. got rolled onto that rock...

Soon, only CIS players will be bringing rocks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, DarkArk said:

61-65 for Sun Fac with Ensnare, sub 50 without, just to prevent taking him with 7 drones with struts. I really think people are overestimating how good he's going to end up being. He can't reposition without taking a tractor, and that tractor passing only happens at 0-1, also he cannot angle his boosts. He's going to be an easy ship to catch out if you know what you're doing. The turret mechanic on it is finicky and will likely take some getting used to, and has the real potential to screw you up if you have it in the wrong quadrant. He is as far from a plug and play pilot as you can get. And when you do get everything aligned and he works, it's basically the equivalent of Fenn Rau.

I agree that there’s going to be a lot of bad Sun Fac play (probably forever). But, seriously, his value is honestly probably less “he hits with 4-5 dice” and more “he tractors things into rocks and takes a gun off the board with high action economy.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I agree that there’s going to be a lot of bad Sun Fac play (probably forever). But, seriously, his value is honestly probably less “he hits with 4-5 dice” and more “he tractors things into rocks and takes a gun off the board with high action economy.”

Honestly, if we're going to take player skill into account a good player should almost never get tractored onto a rock by Sun Fac. 1. because you shouldn't be running rocks, and 2. because they'll know how to control range. Also I doubt he survives more than a round of combat unless you keep him behind all your droids, because he has no way of keeping himself alive like so many other aces and factions do. He doesn't have three force tokens, and so he's not comparable to CLT Ani so people should stop trying to cost him like it.

Edited by DarkArk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope he costs somewhere in the 50-60 point range with Ensare. As others have said he has the potential to be very strong but he has big drawbacks as well. Also it’s not like he is a Supernatural Force user that can dodge everything and go anywhere he wants. There is plenty of room for counterplay against him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Polish quick build from the Legion Krakow group

70283279_935655640149229_2906273261031522304_o.thumb.jpg.d29b5010a1021143f7708e54d7698a22.jpg

That's afterburners, predator, shield upgrade and possibly ensnare for 3 threat. Note that most of the quick builds have two talents, so it's likely actually like that for the ship. Two of the quick builds have 2 mods so that's possible too.

Edited by apoapsis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

There are a lot of small ships in the meta. It’d really be a shame if your Vader / Soontir / Whisper / Anakin / Obi-Wan / etc. got rolled onto that rock...

Soon, only CIS players will be bringing rocks. 

And Mining Guild Ties, especially with Trick Shot! Sixxa with Skilled bombardier and Seismics would LOVE sun fac near rocks.

Otherwise, unfortunately even more stupid gas clouds to expect.

 

Do not forget Chertek, it might be decent as well. 

As for Sun Fac dying fast, Gravitic deflection helps him survive. And you definitely wont feel good sitting with -1 agility while all of Suns droid companions light you up, even if you killed Sun.

 

Ship is probably undercosted in the beginning. They want to sell it, and Cis has not that much showing (rather high buy-in money cost for that faction hinders it somewhat)

Later the great complaining will commence here (remember the hate storm against the Quadjumpers, esp from the Empire fanboys and girls, now you see maybe a lone Unkar once in a while), and cost will rise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was just discussing this on Slack with some other players. Fac needs the target to be "Tractored" for his ability to trigger counts for a lot. He'll be a nightmare for small-based aces to deal with, but medium and larger ships won't have as much of problem.

He's also going to be limited by stress. He doesn't have blue hard turns, so he'll have issues maintaining arc while clearing stress tokens. Rotating his arc is an action, so double-stress, Wounded Pilot and Damaged Sensor Array will all cause problems for him.

EDIT: the Tractored status may also need errata, as the current text would imply that Fac could pull off a double move at the end of activation by triggering PTA, using the tractor token to move, using Ensnare to give the token to a friendly wingbug, and then that bug uses Ensnare to move Fac again. Not sure the value of this, but it's like pulling off a speed-3 straight boost.

Edited by PhantomFO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

EDIT: the Tractored status may also need errata, as the current text would imply that Fac could pull off a double move at the end of activation by triggering PTA, using the tractor token to move, using Ensnare to give the token to a friendly wingbug, and then that bug uses Ensnare to move Fac again. Not sure the value of this, but it's like pulling off a speed-3 straight boost.

Or a barrel roll with a 3 template...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm betting it'll cost about the same as a Striker:

  • Free movement shenanigans that require a bit of work.
  • Very similar statline after tractor boost/roll (basically 3 dice primary vs 3 dice bullseye + 2 dice turret).
  • Relatively limited upgrade slots.

I'm thinking mid 30s for the I3, high 30s for the I4, 40ish for Gorgol, mid 40s for Chertek and Berwer. As both bullseye, turret and boost/roll get better at higher initiatives, I'm placing Sun Fac at around 50. He's clearly better than Duchess, but not on par with Soontir Fel.

Ensnare will be the SF Gunner of this upgrade; it'll be expensive, maybe as much as 10 points, while Gravitic Deflection will be the budget alternative at 2-3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue with the Nantek will be, is it going to be costed to potential with a good, average or bad player. 

Sun Fac has the potential to be amazing. Throwing 5 die against a ship with reduced defence. He has Outmanoeuvre built in, sort of. Part of the Nanteks party tricks are to throw enemies into rocks, denying them shots, a powerful ability, or it can reroll defense die, increasing survivability. 

I am hoping that Sun’s base cost is around 55-58. Making him Wedgesque, I think they won’t cost it too harsh on release, at the end of the day FFG want to move product, look what the did to JM5K 1.0. After people had bought 3, FFG could make changes, albeit for the better.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Okapi said:

I'm betting it'll cost about the same as a Striker:

  • Free movement shenanigans that require a bit of work.
  • Very similar statline after tractor boost/roll (basically 3 dice primary vs 3 dice bullseye + 2 dice turret).
  • Relatively limited upgrade slots.

I'm thinking mid 30s for the I3, high 30s for the I4, 40ish for Gorgol, mid 40s for Chertek and Berwer. As both bullseye, turret and boost/roll get better at higher initiatives, I'm placing Sun Fac at around 50. He's clearly better than Duchess, but not on par with Soontir Fel.

Ensnare will be the SF Gunner of this upgrade; it'll be expensive, maybe as much as 10 points, while Gravitic Deflection will be the budget alternative at 2-3.

I think they'll get both if they want them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

I think they'll get both if they want them.

I think the designers have made these talents polar opposites so it makes you choose between play styles. I think giving you both would be beyond broken. 

Sun at rng 1 of a victim has 4-5 die, it has -1 defense die, plus Sun has a reroll on his green die. Seems a bit silly IMO. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

I think the designers have made these talents polar opposites so it makes you choose between play styles. I think giving you both would be beyond broken. 

Sun at rng 1 of a victim has 4-5 die, it has -1 defense die, plus Sun has a reroll on his green die. Seems a bit silly IMO. 

Perhaps; not that quick builds are a rock solid indication, but seeing almost every single one for the Nantex with two talent slots does at least open the question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...