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Vince79

Watcher in the Water

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So I'm up to Watcher in the Water in my progressive solo games.  It's a tough one, any thoughts on it?

Question:  I'm guessing that if you attack a tentacle, even if you are going to kill it, its effect takes precedence and takes place anyway.  Like Grasping Tentacle, for example.  Even if you were going to kill it, I suppose it attaches itself to a character anyway and doesn't die.  Is that correct?

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Yes, that's correct. For Thrashing Tentacle and Grasping Tentacle the effect triggers immediately after you declare your attackers but before any damage is dealt. That means that if the tentacle attaches then you can't attack it and kill it.

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Yeah scrying is great and you really want to Power quest it/lots of card draw so you can luck out and clear it by discarding. Also another consideration is sneak attacking Gandalf or Descendent of Thorondor to wipe out a tentacle that way. Hail of Stones likewise is nice to take down a tentacle without attacking it. 

If not playing progression mode then Thalin hero combined with a few Gondorian Spearman equipped Spear of the Citadel are great ways to auto kill enemies. 

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Thanks for the tips, guys.  

Another question:  With Striking Tentacle, I suppose if you exhaust a character to defend it, and then the attack gets considered undefended, the character you were going to use to defend it remains exhausted.  Is that correct?

I've never been one for using the scrying cards so much.  I usually feel like I need all my characters for either questing or combat, so I hate to exhaust them to peek at a card.  If things get rough I'll consider it though, they do seem ideal for the tentacles.

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20 hours ago, Vince79 said:

 

Another question:  With Striking Tentacle, I suppose if you exhaust a character to defend it, and then the attack gets considered undefended, the character you were going to use to defend it remains exhausted.  Is that correct?

You are correct! The character remains exhausted, no matter which hero takes the undefended attack.

Edit: Good grief. You guys are right! I didn't bother to go find Striking Tentacle and remembered incorrectly that its ability triggers after you declare a defender.

That's embarrassing! :D

Edited by Wandalf the Gizzard
-

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1 hour ago, Wandalf the Gizzard said:

You are correct! The character remains exhausted, no matter which hero takes the undefended attack.

I disagree with this interpretation. Striking tentacle's ability should resolve before you even choose a defender, which you wouldn't do if it's considered undefended anyway.

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48 minutes ago, rees263 said:

I disagree with this interpretation. Striking tentacle's ability should resolve before you even choose a defender, which you wouldn't do if it's considered undefended anyway.

I agree. In step 1 of combat the attacking enemy is declared and only in step 2 the defending character is declared. So as soon as the attack begins (i.e. step 1) the top card of the encounter deck should be discarded before step 2 when a defender is declared.
Note that Thrashing and Grasping Tentacles trigger on being attacked and in step 1 of player attacks both the target and the attackers get declared.

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58 minutes ago, rees263 said:

I disagree with this interpretation. Striking tentacle's ability should resolve before you even choose a defender, which you wouldn't do if it's considered undefended anyway.

To add onto this a bit: Striking Tentacle says "Forced: When Striking Tentacle attacks, discard the top card of the encounter deck. If that card has a shadow effect or is a Tentacle enemy, this attack is considered undefended."

The Dol Guldur Beastmaster erratum explicitly states that this phrasing triggers at the time of the 1st step of enemy attack resolution, which is indeed before a defender would be declared.

http://www.lotr-lcg-quest-companion.gamersdungeon.net/#Card91

Edited by sappidus

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Now that I think about it, are you even able to declare a defender if the attack is considered undefended? This is still something you may want to do if you had say a Gondorian spearman. 

Or does it being counted as undefended rule out that possibility altogether?

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I'd say that the attack being ruled as undefended removes all possibility of declaring a defender....

From Core Set, pag 18

Quote

2. Declare defender.

A character must exhaust to be declared as a defender. Only one character can be declared as a defender against each attacking enemy. A player also has the option to let an attack go undefended, and declare no defenders for that attack. Unless a card effect specifies otherwise, players can only declare defenders against enemies with whom they are engaged.

 

From Rules Reference

Quote

6.4.1 Declare defender

The active player may choose one ready character he or she controls to declare as a defender for this attack. A character must exhaust to be declared as a defender.

The active player may instead decide to let the attack go undefended by declaring no defenders for that attack.

Unless a card ability specifies otherwise, a player can only declare defenders against enemies with whom he or she is engaged.

 

It says you have the option to let the attack go undefended, but Striking-Tentacle's Forced effect takes away that option of you by declaring the attack as undefended, so you have no choice to declare the defender...

Carlos José Matos

 

PS: Those 2 are the only references I found about undefended...

Edited by CJMatos
addind PS

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20 hours ago, Vince79 said:

I had lost three straight with my Leadership/Lore/Spirit deck, but I won on my first try with my Leadership/Lore/Tactics deck. 

Thanks to General_Grievous for the suggestion of adding Hail of Stones, I was able to kill the Watcher with it.

Awesome! Glad to hear it! That is an underutilized card but if you have the characters you can obliterate even some strong enemies.

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8 hours ago, Amicus Draconis said:

I agree. In step 1 of combat the attacking enemy is declared and only in step 2 the defending character is declared. So as soon as the attack begins (i.e. step 1) the top card of the encounter deck should be discarded before step 2 when a defender is declared.

Finally some good news.  When I come across these types of questions, I usually figure that the worst case scenario is the answer.  I've read that's a good rule of thumb, because "the deck is always trying to kill you".  But I'm happy to be wrong in this case. 

I usually decide who I'm going to have defend before I ever get around to working out the attack, so that probably contributed to my error.

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