Any chance to see longer and hard cover adventures

[alotapotato 11]

Hi, just recently got into the game and got all the adventures.

Turns out the adventures themselves are just very low quality booklets comparable to board game rule books. So far I've had very bad experiences with these when running DnD adventures since they are hard to keep intact and wear down quickly. You also have trouble storing them on shelves since they can't stand upright on their own. The included adventure itself spans maybe 2 sessions.

Any chances to get better quality adventure books which have more content than 2 sessions, similar to how Wizards does it for DnD?

Edited September 8, 2019 by player4354586

[Avatar111 553]

To be fair, yes, the adventures could use a better layout. You NEED the strong NPC cast to be very well written, it also probably needs a bit more details on the various locations (no need for rules, but at least descriptions to help the GM set the vibe).

But otherwise, this game runs so differently than many other RPG, and the players can create the story as much as the GM. Lots of "details" can, and should, be omitted for the sake of pushing the story forward and arriving at crucial turning points.

As much as I would like more defined adventures, without knowing who your PCs are, it is extremely hard to set up everything. I found myself HEAVILY tweaking and modifying the adventure I ran (winter's embrace) to fit my PCs. I redesigned NPCs, modified some twists etc... All of it so that the adventure played out interestingly and in accordance to who my PCs actually are, their ninjo, their giri, their flaws and so on. If the decisions during the gameplay are not hard to make for your PCs, if it is all too easy to just play the "roll with the punches, do good, be glorious, superhero", L5R won't hit the mark... You need to create slightly twisted PCs, you NEED to twist those PCs. Make their choices matter, to the point that by even telling them what the resolution of their choice can be, they STILL have a hard time making the choice.

So yeah... This game needs the GM to put some elbow grease. That's what it is, you won't get around that. All I really wanted from Winter's Embrace was more description of locations, and more ways in which the adventure could give ways for the GM to adjust the different elements to fit their PCs. (By creating the story as a metaplot, and then putting empty text boxes or characters boxes that could be filled out by the GM (with some guidelines) so that the adventure would be more poignant for the PCs)

Anyway, it is a special game. Clearly not without its flaws (bloated rule design especially).
I suggest you to read the material, but ultimately design your own "adventure", as much of the gameplay is about PC-NPC interactions, schemes, and... decisions, heartbreaking, deadly or very impactful.. decisions.
Maybe I'm just talking about how "I" would like it to be presented to me... How I figured it all out is very cool for me. And yeah, as much as I feel bad the designers were not able to present it clearly and fluidly, there is some kind of essence, a very interesting way of playing, deep down in there that you can grasp if you really are into it. It is not clear, like the rules are not clear, but the "essence" is there, somewhere, between the lines.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Avatar111

[Void Crane 189]

I would almost certainly purchase a hard back book of adventures much like the D&D format. Not sure if its on L5Rs radar though ...

[Magnus Grendel 11,673]

It's not a problem I have myself because I've been buying them as electronic copies on DrivethruRPG, but the old Star Wars RPG and 40k RPG beginner games and GM's kit books were similar in size, so I know what you mean; with the 'books' being only 30-60 odd pages, they've little strength and don't really justify publishing in hard cover.

For the 40k and Star Wars series, FFG have done adventure books with multiple (usually 3) linked adventures to bulk them out to a decent book size. Given that they seem to be publishing each adventure to 'pair' with the respective sourcebook, that doesn't really work (I guess you could ask why they didn't combine them into one title, but that would probably make the resulting book too big).

As noted, there's no specific suggested plans for a big linked campaign book, but we might see it at some point.

 

[neilcell 252]

I would be absolutely okay with them eventually taking several of the adventures and putting them into a compilation book similar to Paizo's Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition.  Given time, they could take Topaz Championship, Palace of the Emerald Champion, Dark Tides, Oni's Mask, Knotted Tails, and A Ronin's Path into one campaign book.  Even though I have those adventures, I would shell out the cash for a compilation hardcover book.

[Magnus Grendel 11,673]

Putting A Ronin's Path in a higher-value production with some nice artwork and appropriate updates would be good, since at the moment it only exists in the beta, and Kyotei Castle isn't available in hard-copy (I'm sure no-one would say no to a nice map of the castle, either), as is the case with the 'taster' adventures.

I'd imagine a 'collated' adventure book would be best done with at least some unique content, though, to get a decent draw.

• A Ronin's Path - 14 pages
• The Scroll or the Blade - 24 pages
• Winter's Embrace - 32 pages
• The Topaz Championship - 36 pages
• In the Palace of the Emerald Champion - 38 pages
• Dark Tides - 30 pages (technically 32 but 2 are rules for Tortoise PCs)
• Wedding at Kyotei Castle - 30 pages
• Knotted Tails - 24 pages
• Mask of the Oni - 32 pages

That's only 260 pages all up, which whilst a big book is still quite a lot shorter than the core rulebook.

At the same time, I'd probably rather see 'new' stuff than what's essentially a reprint.

[Avatar111 553]

Yup, no point for a reprint of anything. Unless it is a fix/clarification/streamlining of the corebook.

[neilcell 252]

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That's only 260 pages all up, which whilst a big book is still quite a lot shorter than the core rulebook.

At the same time, I'd probably rather see 'new' stuff than what's essentially a reprint.

How does that stack up against the other hardcover books though?

 

 

4 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Yup, no point for a reprint of anything. Unless it is a fix/clarification/streamlining of the corebook.

And a hard cover reprint would do exactly that for those adventures.  As for a reprint of the corebook, that is a simple matter of making sure further releases from the printing press use the errata version rather than the original file.

[Magnus Grendel 11,673]

1 hour ago, neilcell said:

How does that stack up against the other hardcover books though?

Emerald Empire is about the same at 258. Shadowlands and Courts of Stone are both in the 140-ish range.

1 hour ago, neilcell said:

As for a reprint of the corebook, that is a simple matter of making sure further releases from the printing press use the errata version rather than the original file.

Bear in mind @Avatar111 is probably picturing a fairly major rewrite when he says this.

[Avatar111 553]

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Bear in mind @Avatar111 is probably picturing a fairly major rewrite when he says this.

Well, considering that a lot of players do not play Intrigues as intented or get confused by combat.

I think some rewriting is in order. If only to make it more understandable and polish a few kinks. So yeah, more work than just a few erratas (but nothing "too crazy" I think...)

The game deserves it though, especially its corebook. It got released way too soon, and is severely lacking in some crucial gameplay areas. I don't think its got a bright future ahead as a "game". Probably will sell books mostly to lore and l5r fans rather than people looking to play it. I am not talking about slight number changes to balance out techniques and such, I am talking about streamlining some of the KEY, CORE, gameplay loops of the game. The Conflict chapter as a whole is the worst offender. Rewrite that chapter, then make a PDF that "replaces" this whole chapter. Its about 35 pages... and some of the writing can be reused, it isn't like a total change. Most of the issues are in this chapter; Intrigues streamlining, make them clearer and tighter, Duel adjustments, improve the predict and center actions, Critical hits and Conditions adjustments, revisit the mass battle rules.
Boom, 99% fixed.
I know some people will say "nah, its all good as is". But my opinion is that this game is quickly becoming irrelevant because it simply is a chore to play. Lots of unclear and/or bloated areas that doesn't make for a fun gameplay.
People that do like the game like the setting, the core mechanics of rings/checks, strife etc. "Narrative" scenes are all OK.
But the moment they jump into conflicts proper; it becomes very clunky.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Avatar111

[alotapotato 11]

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It's not a problem I have myself because I've been buying them as electronic copies on DrivethruRPG, but the old Star Wars RPG and 40k RPG beginner games and GM's kit books were similar in size, so I know what you mean; with the 'books' being only 30-60 odd pages, they've little strength and don't really justify publishing in hard cover.

Even if no hard cover is possible I'd at least expect a more robust book binding similar to the reduced rule book in the beginner box. Also given that most adventures seem to have additional content that seamlessly integrates with the adventure - Palace of the Emerald Champion fits so well that it almost feels like ripped out off the beginner adventure - they should be able to up the pages to 50+ easily.

[Void Crane 189]

To be clear I am envisioning a book of new related adventures. I am much less interested in bundled material I already have. In a (my) perfect world I would be thinking about something on par with with Paizo's hardback for the Rise of the Runelords or Wizard's Tomb of Annihilation. Enough to run a campaign that meets once a week for a couple of months of action.

In this wonderful scenario I would want to see something set up along the lines of the Red Hand of Doom. Where each "scene" or individual location provides a collection of potential victory points for the actions taken by the PCs. Red Hand is binary (you fight an invasion and win or fail based on the outcome created by all your victory points). In L5R I would want something that wasn't binary. Each location would have potential points for 4-6 factions in collaboration and opposition to each other. The total number of points for each faction at the end would determine their relative success against each other. Just some possibilities might be: Crane vs Lion. Emerald Magistrates vs Opium Cartel, Mirumoto vs Perfect Land sect, Yasuki vs Daidoji vs Ide, Phoenix vs bringing back the Jade Magistrates....

I think to make this work you would need a MAJOR event that would cause immediate "consternation" in Rokugan, and that would further cause ripples to spread outward and cause a lot of unintended consequences as Rokugan grapples with (potential changes) to the rough balances of compering interests that make up society. 

[neilcell 252]

9 hours ago, Void Crane said:

To be clear I am envisioning a book of new related adventures. I am much less interested in bundled material I already have. In a (my) perfect world I would be thinking about something on par with with Paizo's hardback for the Rise of the Runelords or Wizard's Tomb of Annihilation. Enough to run a campaign that meets once a week for a couple of months of action.

In this wonderful scenario I would want to see something set up along the lines of the Red Hand of Doom. Where each "scene" or individual location provides a collection of potential victory points for the actions taken by the PCs. Red Hand is binary (you fight an invasion and win or fail based on the outcome created by all your victory points). In L5R I would want something that wasn't binary. Each location would have potential points for 4-6 factions in collaboration and opposition to each other. The total number of points for each faction at the end would determine their relative success against each other. Just some possibilities might be: Crane vs Lion. Emerald Magistrates vs Opium Cartel, Mirumoto vs Perfect Land sect, Yasuki vs Daidoji vs Ide, Phoenix vs bringing back the Jade Magistrates....

I think to make this work you would need a MAJOR event that would cause immediate "consternation" in Rokugan, and that would further cause ripples to spread outward and cause a lot of unintended consequences as Rokugan grapples with (potential changes) to the rough balances of compering interests that make up society. 

Both Rise of the Runelords Hard Cover and Curse of the Crimson Throne were reprints though.  The Emerald Spire was all new material, though that mega dungeon is more interesting when combined with the Thronekeep Kickstarter Book.  I used the dungeon level completion as a rough guide to events happening topside with Fort Inevitable and Thronkeep's gangs having an effective war.  The players got caught in the middle because I put level keys from both the Spire and beneath Thornkeep in the other dungeon.  That put them in the position where they had to either pick a side or play both against each other to advance further down the dungeon, though it was possible to simply refuse to take sides in which they were hassled by both.

I do like you idea of something along Red Hand of Doom.  Each adventure area should have goals and objectives for each clan.  And while there may be an outright victory condition in a particular area, that should not preclude other factions from gaining advantages they can leverage later (tactical retreat for strategic gain).  I like it because much like the card game tournaments, any faction could come out on top, but it is also not so binary as a one on one match.  And using my example above, the players could potentially play clan rivalries against each other or simply pick one faction and go loaded for bear into the rival clan areas.

[phillos 1,516]

I also usually just get these things digitally.  It's easier to bring them up on a pad and do searches and stuff.  If you could buy them all in one big hard cover book I would consider buying that as well though I'd prefer they do that for the fictions first to collect them all under one physical product.  If they produced a larger campaign book for the game I'd also buy that.  I'm in the bag for all these L5R RPG products though so I'm many not the best barometer.

Edited September 13, 2019 by phillos

[T_Kageyasu 155]

I'd certainly pay for an updated full campaign book or box akin to the original "Otosan Uchi" or "City of Lies". I think they each had three adventures, were made of quality materials and were priced accordingly.

Edited September 15, 2019 by T_Kageyasu

[Void Crane 189]

10 hours ago, T_Kageyasu said:

I'd certainly pay for an updated full campaign book or box akin to the original "Otosan Uchi" or "City of Lies". I think they each had three adventures, were made of quality materials and were priced accordingly.

City of Lies remains my favorite L5R product....

[Magnus Grendel 11,673]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 4:08 PM, neilcell said:

I do like you idea of something along Red Hand of Doom.  Each adventure area should have goals and objectives for each clan.  And while there may be an outright victory condition in a particular area, that should not preclude other factions from gaining advantages they can leverage later (tactical retreat for strategic gain).  I like it because much like the card game tournaments, any faction could come out on top, but it is also not so binary as a one on one match.  And using my example above, the players could potentially play clan rivalries against each other or simply pick one faction and go loaded for bear into the rival clan areas.

Indeed. I've never played in an Adventurer's League event, but my understanding was that they are fundamentally 'scripted' as opposed to the "we'll see what happens and make the results canon" approach that Wedding At Kyotei Castle took. I'm not sure how an organised play campaign of that fashion would work (making it akin to the 'story tournament leagues' like the Kotei Series for the LCG) but it would be awesome to see if it worked.