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Skaroreg

points changes not on cards?

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Come on FFG a chart? Now i have to remember what points have changed when I am list building? then refer to the chart? Or I have to go out of my way to find an accurate list building? That is a terrible cop out to call them "Tournament points".  Just include a section in your PDF with "Tournament Points Cards" so i can print them up. You know no one is going to play old points values so why pretend that there are two versions of the game? The reason you gave is a cop out. You are creating a barrier of entry to playing the most optimized version of the game.  You are ALREADY including errata change cards just give us a section to be able to print them so I can put them over my old card. I would be printing them and spending the time to cut them out so how is it any skin off of your backs. 

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11 minutes ago, Skaroreg said:

i do both. Even when using a list builder. It is far more real to have everything in front of me. they just made it more difficult because I have to have a chart as well. 

Or just sleeve your cards and write the new point total on the sleeve with sharpie/apply a sticker. That's what Warmahordes players have been doing for a while now to deal with the same issue. 

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29 minutes ago, Skaroreg said:

i do both. Even when using a list builder. It is far more real to have everything in front of me. they just made it more difficult because I have to have a chart as well. 

You don't need a chart when the list builders get updated.  😉

Edited by stackeffect

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If you really badly want a physical sheet with pts changes, it will take you all of two seconds to make a chart on any word processor considering there's not that many changes. It's really not a big deal, I'm just glad ffg is releasing an update for pts of older units/upgrades that could use a rebalance. 

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Cue the hate.

 

I’m sorry, but what did you expect?

If you didn’t see X-Wing 1.0, you must have heard of the problems. Creating cards to correct older cards, just doesn’t work. The system becomes too convoluted and precarious. A points change is actually the most elegant and direct way to correct the issues of units that are not being used or that are unplayable as is. Yes, it would have been nice if the designers got it right at first crack, but they’re not perfect, but they really do want a balanced game and this points restructuring should prove that. As others have said above, just sleeve your cards, get those little circular stickers from the dollar store and write in the correct numbers. Yep, it’s a little inconvenient, but this is a hobby and this is just one more step. 

I’m sorry, it may feel like this post is making an example of you, that wasn’t my intention, but I am very happy that FFG is doing this and I know a number of other players are as well. I hope they do more of this in the future, and since they said, at best it would be once a year, you probably won’t have many to change after the initial changes.

Oh and just a hint, if you’re going to use a sharpie, or even a ballpoint pen, let the ink dry before you put the card back with your other cards, or you will get transfer.

 

 

*This public service announcement has been brought to you by people who like to type a lot.🙄😏

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1 hour ago, Skaroreg said:

Come on FFG a chart? Now i have to remember what points have changed when I am list building? then refer to the chart? Or I have to go out of my way to find an accurate list building? That is a terrible cop out to call them "Tournament points".  Just include a section in your PDF with "Tournament Points Cards" so i can print them up. You know no one is going to play old points values so why pretend that there are two versions of the game? The reason you gave is a cop out. You are creating a barrier of entry to playing the most optimized version of the game.  You are ALREADY including errata change cards just give us a section to be able to print them so I can put them over my old card. I would be printing them and spending the time to cut them out so how is it any skin off of your backs. 

Use a list builder bud. Tabletop Admiral is the best. 

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I use a list builder. I'm glad that FFG is making the effort to rebalance and that there aren't too many changes. However, it would be nice if FFG would create PDF's of all the cards on which they could change the values and wordings on each card. If losing money is the issue require anyone wanting to print them to provide the proof of purchase ID. Small effort that players would appreciate.

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1 minute ago, charlesanakin said:

I use a list builder. I'm glad that FFG is making the effort to rebalance and that there aren't too many changes. However, it would be nice if FFG would create PDF's of all the cards on which they could change the values and wordings on each card. If losing money is the issue require anyone wanting to print them to provide the proof of purchase ID. Small effort that players would appreciate.

So instead of keeping track of the cards you need, we'd have to drag around all of the little chits of cardboard, and then FFG would require checking for the cardboard that corresponded to a specific upgrade card. I wasn't aware the code on the cardboard chits was different, I figured it was just the product code/UPC. 

Physical items are better proof than digital codes that can be copied, computed, or otherwise duped. 

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Besides my OCD, my issue is that you are required to have all cards in a tournament, but now these cards will not have the correct information on them. So we either need to not require cards or re-print them so they are correct.

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48 minutes ago, Cusm said:

Besides my OCD, my issue is that you are required to have all cards in a tournament, but now these cards will not have the correct information on them. So we either need to not require cards or re-print them so they are correct.

As I've said elsewhere on the forum, requiring the cards is more about requiring SOMEONE to have bought the product (either the third party you got the cards from, or yourself). With painted miniatures, it becomes very hard to tell an original product from a 3D print or recast without potentially damaging the miniature. The cards just serve as proof FFG made money, the points values on them have no actual bearing on the tournament, especially when list checking SHOULD be done by Judges/TOs who would have access to the new values in this chart. 

 

<eyeroll>Plus, these points changes are "just" for competitive, so the cards are still correct for casual </eyeroll>.

Edit: to be clear, the eyeroll is purely about the changes JUST being for competitive. 

Edited by Caimheul1313

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I have never used a list builder. I always just add up the numbers on the cards because I'm old school and pride myself on my basic arithmetic skills, and the fact that my brain can do that on its own. 

 That said, I have no objections to placing a bit of paper with the new cost in with the card sleeve. 

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2 minutes ago, Albertese said:

I have never used a list builder. I always just add up the numbers on the cards because I'm old school and pride myself on my basic arithmetic skills, and the fact that my brain can do that on its own. 

 That said, I have no objections to placing a bit of paper with the new cost in with the card sleeve. 

Lol. Did your family throw a celebration when you graduated high school?

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33 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

<eyeroll>Plus, these points changes are "just" for competitive, so the cards are still correct for casual </eyeroll>.

Edit: to be clear, the eyeroll is purely about the changes JUST being for competitive. 

Gotcha. 

In Imperial Assault they used OP kits for updated cards along with changing them in the newer printed models. I do not get why they think casual players would not want to use cheaper cost models in their list. This is a weak and weird CYA type comment.

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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

So instead of keeping track of the cards you need, we'd have to drag around all of the little chits of cardboard, and then FFG would require checking for the cardboard that corresponded to a specific upgrade card. I wasn't aware the code on the cardboard chits was different, I figured it was just the product code/UPC. 

Physical items are better proof than digital codes that can be copied, computed, or otherwise duped. 

That's not what I meant. I meant you would use the proof of purchase in order to be able to download the files of the cards with new points values and wordings. Then you could print them off and simply take the printed cards with updated values and wordings and leave then proof of purchase chits at home. Have you ever been to a tournament where someone has physically inspected your cards (I'm not talking about proxying either)? Cards and even minis can be duped too.

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1 minute ago, charlesanakin said:

That's not what I meant. I meant you would use the proof of purchase in order to be able to download the files of the cards with new points values and wordings. Then you could print them off and simply take the printed cards with updated values and wordings and leave then proof of purchase chits at home. Have you ever been to a tournament where someone has physically inspected your cards (I'm not talking about proxying either)? Cards and even minis can be duped too.

The code on the proof of purchase tokens are not unique. They are unique to the unit, but not unique from the same type of unit, so a rebel trooper unit expansion will have the same number as another rebel trooper unit expansion. Also there is nothing that would stop someone from getting that number or a pic of that token, so it wouldn’t prove much. For that, why not just make a PDF of all cards available? The articles that FFG releases provides pics of all unit cards as is, so there is not much stoping anyone from printing what they want, or even editing, then printing.

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53 minutes ago, Cusm said:

I said specifically TOURNAMENT which they should have the correct item that they require.

How do you prove the painted item is a miniature that was produced by Fantasy Flight Games, rather than a recast or knock of 3D print? Especially given skilled converters who work wonders with greenstuff and a knife? It will only get harder as FFG changes over to hard plastic.

Also, if the card is an upgrade that is included from a different box than any units being fielded, nothing in your army proves that you (or someone else) paid FFG to get that card. For instance, using a printed out Improvised Orders without using Palpatine or Han Solo in your list doesn't prove anything. Using the actual physical card means someone bought Han/Palpatine in order for you to be using that card, either you, a reseller you bought from, or a friend who loaned you the card. 

Plus FFG then couldn't sell us card upgrade packs to pick up new upgrades. 

22 minutes ago, Cusm said:

Gotcha. 

In Imperial Assault they used OP kits for updated cards along with changing them in the newer printed models. I do not get why they think casual players would not want to use cheaper cost models in their list. This is a weak and weird CYA type comment.

Well, the OP kits limit the new cards to people that are playing competitive (albeit locally and in this case using the new points anyway), so doesn't help pure casual players who already have the product. It reads more like "we want to save money/effort by not changing the cards in future printings of this product" since most of the time the casual scene follows the competitive, as in my experience many "casual" events have "competitive" players testing out new lists. It also avoids the issue of having to check which printing of a product you pick up off a shelf.

13 minutes ago, charlesanakin said:

That's not what I meant. I meant you would use the proof of purchase in order to be able to download the files of the cards with new points values and wordings. Then you could print them off and simply take the printed cards with updated values and wordings and leave then proof of purchase chits at home. Have you ever been to a tournament where someone has physically inspected your cards (I'm not talking about proxying either)? Cards and even minis can be duped too.

Yes I have actually had cards checked. Not often, and not usually at the local level but I have seen it happen in various games, mostly at bigger tournaments. It's a bit more costly to properly dupe a card with the right cardstock and ink than a mini, and a card is easier to check than a painted mini. Your idea would be better implemented when a game is first created, rather than in the middle of production since there isn't a good way to retroactively distribute codes. 

The more likely scenario: some people do it the right way, others just download the files from various places on the internet without ever entering a code. Which is also how anyone who purchased models that don't have a code (for instance, buying an army from someone quitting the game, or who decided to stop collecting a particular army) would have to get the files, unless your idea includes the option of paying FFG a fee instead, which is still added logistics, and hurts the secondary market. Rules pirating is probably a big part of the reason many games have switched to free distribution of at least the core rules.

Edited by Caimheul1313

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46 minutes ago, Albertese said:

Ummm... yeah...? As has every family I've ever known when one of their kids graduated from high school. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. 

My joke was in poor taste. 

Edited by R3dReVenge

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