Jump to content
Doji Tori

‘Black and White’ story discussion

Recommended Posts

On 9/4/2019 at 1:31 PM, Ishi Tonu said:

Kachiko is not in it for her clan, unless there is some greater benefit to her.

This is my impression as well, and I have very little sympathy for her as a consequence.  I don't think this was really about stability for the Empire - she's just telling Shoju that because it's the thing he'll react the least badly to.

 

The only thing that I personally am willing to grant her is this: if I followed the timeline of the late Emperor's plan reveal correctly, Shoju himself has only known about the regency for a few hours.  It's entirely likely that he's not even seen Kachiko since then in a setting where he could reveal it to her, and thus I don't really blame either of them for that, although it now lands them in a terrible situation, which we all recognize.  I think Kachiko took a logical course of action that benefits KachikoandsuretheScorpionClanIguessandmaybetheEmpireifIneedanexcuselater, while Shoju - for the moment - is putting himself in a dangerous position because he genuinely wants to carry out his friend's wishes and hold the Empire together.  It'll be sad to see Shoju fall to the corruption of power, the very problem he's been trying to solve in his Clan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MirumotoKatsuro said:

if I followed the timeline of the late Emperor's plan reveal correctly, Shoju himself has only known about the regency for a few hours. 

As of Tiger Stalks His Prey; the Emperor claimed to have 'told no-one'.

Since the edict was written then and was supposed to be promulgated the following day, then presumably, yes, Shoju's game of Go with the Emperor, and the Emperor's murder, has all happened in the space of that afternoon/evening.

 

7 hours ago, MirumotoKatsuro said:

I think Kachiko took a logical course of action that benefits KachikoandsuretheScorpionClanIguessandmaybetheEmpireifIneedanexcuselater, while Shoju - for the moment - is putting himself in a dangerous position because he genuinely wants to carry out his friend's wishes and hold the Empire together.

Kachiko's course of action (cover up the murder = protect the Hantei name) is just about justifiable right up until she orders Toturi's murder to erase the existence of the edict. Because that's the only reason she's doing it, and whether he was 'manipulated into it' or not, at that point she knows she's deliberately trying to see that the last wishes the Emperor are not followed. Shoju is by comparison following the Emperor's orders.

The thing is, with the scorpion's 'duty and loyalty' hat on, it doesn't actually matter if they were friends or not. Yes, the new emperor can overrule what came before, but there is no new emperor (yet). During the interregnum, the last wishes of the previous Emperor are not subject to review, challenge or debate by anyone because no-one has the authority to do so. Disobeying them is therefore just as dishonourable and disloyal 'now' as it would have been earlier in the day when he was alive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Kachiko's course of action (cover up the murder = protect the Hantei name) is just about justifiable right up until she orders Toturi's murder to erase the existence of the edict.

^This

Her motivations behind her helping Sotorii, are driven purely by her self-interests, not her duty.  While Kachiko has the good fortune of being able to say she "did her duty" she is very clearly helping Sotorii because it serves her self-interests.  She was told specifically not to continue her pursuit of power by Shoju.  This gift just falls in her lap and she thinks this is an opportunity to further her agenda, and not incur Shoju's wrath, because she has a valid reason to cover up what Sotorii did. 

The existence of the edict exposes her ambitions. 

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Kachiko's course of action (cover up the murder = protect the Hantei name) is just about justifiable right up until she orders Toturi's murder to erase the existence of the edict. Because that's the only reason she's doing it, and whether he was 'manipulated into it' or not, at that point she knows she's deliberately trying to see that the last wishes the Emperor are not followed. Shoju is by comparison following the Emperor's orders.

The thing is, with the scorpion's 'duty and loyalty' hat on, it doesn't actually matter if they were friends or not. Yes, the new emperor can overrule what came before, but there is no new emperor (yet). During the interregnum, the last wishes of the previous Emperor are not subject to review, challenge or debate by anyone because no-one has the authority to do so. Disobeying them is therefore just as dishonourable and disloyal 'now' as it would have been earlier in the day when he was alive.

I'm not sure I see your point.  Of course her actions are justifiable - I imagine she's not likely to attempt them if they were - but I personally don't see that as changing her motive, which to me appears purely selfish.  As Ishi Tonu said, she gets to make a huge power play despite Shoju's opposition, and has a justification of great magnitude when he comes for her. 

 

Shoju is trying to fulfill a duty that he doesn't want and is now actively afraid of the implications of, because it is his duty, and his friend's (last) wish.  Just as you say, doing so is the path of honor and loyalty, but it'll be a hard road, and one that they've implied that Shoju won't be able to walk without falling victim to the lure of power, just as many of his Clan have.  They've set him up to be a tragic character, destroyed by circumstance and a few personal faults.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to question Shoju's wisdom in threatening Kachiko with the Grove. While I realize the idea is to scare her back into line I fear it poses a great risk of putting her in the mindset where she thinks she has to get rid of him before he decides to get rid of her.

That being said I don't see Kachiko as one-dimensionally power hungry like some seem to. I think she thinks what she's doing is for the good of the Empire. It's just that she's so arrogant that she sees herself (and by extension the Scorpion) as the only one capable of saving the Empire from the current time of crisis it undeniably finds itself in. And she's so committed to the 'greater good' that she's willing to do anything in pursuit of it, even blackmail the Emperor or assassinate the Emerald Champion.

Also, I think part of the reason she doesn't bring up the attempt on Toturi is so that when it does come to light she can throw Aramoro under the bus and make it look like it was him acting on his own initiative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/7/2019 at 8:31 AM, shineyorkboy said:

I have to question Shoju's wisdom in threatening Kachiko with the Grove. While I realize the idea is to scare her back into line I fear it poses a great risk of putting her in the mindset where she thinks she has to get rid of him before he decides to get rid of her.

Actually I think it was because of his duty as his husband that he informed her. Others won't probably get that fair warning from him. Still I condone him for putting his wife through knife point, although that was probably still normal for that culture at that time. Can't imagine Toturi doing the same thing to Kaede though whatever the reason is.

Edited by Yogo Rye X

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Yogo Rye X said:

Actually I think it was because of his duty as his husband that he informed her. Others won't probably get that fair warning from him. Still I condone him for putting his wife through knife point, although that was probably still normal for that culture at that time. Can't imagine Toturi doing the same thing to Kaede though whatever the reason is.

Yeah no I wouldn't consider threatening to murder your wife is normal even in the most brutal samurai culture.  This is clearly him telling her how close to the edge she is and that she better rein her ambition in before he get tired of it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Yogo Rye X said:

Actually I think it was because of his duty as her husband that he informed her.

That seems a bit sentimental for Shoju. Unless your argument is that his reasoning is 'she is my wife therefore I am obligated to warn her' in which case it's too... mechanically bound to the tenets of bushido.

14 hours ago, Yogo Rye X said:

Still I condone him for putting his wife through knife point, although that was probably still normal for that culture at that time.

Since she had just all but admitted to blackmailing Sotorii it's not really that unreasonable given how treasonous that could be seen as.

Ruthless? Sure. Dispassionate? Sure. But do you really want the guy in charge of the Empire playing favorites when it comes to enforcing the law?

14 hours ago, Yogo Rye X said:

Can't imagine Toturi doing the same thing to Kaede though whatever the reason is.

Well it's hard to see Toturi being as pragmatic or decisive as Shoju in general. Plus Toturaede have genuine affection for one another as opposed to the more professional nature of Shoju and Kachiko's relationship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

Well it's hard to see Toturi being as pragmatic or decisive as Shoju in general. Plus Toturaede have genuine affection for one another as opposed to the more professional nature of Shoju and Kachiko's relationship.

Keade also seems less the character who would ever place her husband in that position as she doesn't have anywhere near the ambition that Kachiko has displayed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shoju knows perfectly what he does by leaving this Knife mark on her. Women samurai who aren't bushi performs not Seppuku but Jinai by slicing their throat. 

If he exposes her for treason, he would have to execute her, then probably commit Seppuku. 

If we want a "comparable" situation in terms of status and treason towards the Empire, in Old5R it's like Crane Champion Doji Kurohito killing wife Doji Akiko on learning she was Gozoku, and committing Seppuku for the shame his wife brought by her treason. 

Edited by Nitenman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Keade also seems less the character who would ever place her husband in that position

Didn't she spiritshenanigan'd him just a few stories ago despite his very explicit disapproval?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...