FFG Live Legion -- Points Changes being discussed!

[JediPartisan 815]

I know they’re saying the points change is more for competitive play and casual players should just continue with the printed points, but why would anyone not want to use the new points? If the points are meant to balance the game better, it just would seem stupid not to.

For those who need the points on the card, just sleeve your cards and print the new number/errata out, then cut out the words/numbers and place the printout in the sleeves with the card. That’s what I have done with previous errata. We usually don’t get a lot at one time, so it’s not so bad. Not sure if i’ll do the points myself though, since I usually use BattleScribe or TabletopAdmiral for list building and don’t usually look at the numbers while playing. As long as the list builders have all the right points, cards don’t mean much to me, except maybe checking my opponents list, but if I’m that unsure I could easily recreate their list in BS on my phone.

[TallGiraffe 3,456]

1 minute ago, JediPartisan said:

I know they’re saying the points change is more for competitive play and casual players should just continue with the printed points, but why would anyone not want to use the new points? If the points are meant to balance the game better, it just would seem stupid not to.

For those who need the points on the card, just sleeve your cards and print the new number/errata out, then cut out the words/numbers and place the printout in the sleeves with the card. That’s what I have done with previous errata. We usually don’t get a lot at one time, so it’s not so bad. Not sure if i’ll do the points myself though, since I usually use BattleScribe or TabletopAdmiral for list building and don’t usually look at the numbers while playing. As long as the list builders have all the right points, cards don’t mean much to me, except maybe checking my opponents list, but if I’m that unsure I could easily recreate their list in BS on my phone.

sleeve, put circular sticker where the points  are, write new number. Easy.

[Darth 2Face 235]

50 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

I know they’re saying the points change is more for competitive play and casual players should just continue with the printed points, but why would anyone not want to use the new points? If the points are meant to balance the game better, it just would seem stupid not to.

I think it is more of PR speak to forestall the complaints of "now my cards are worthless, therefore FFG owes me." This way, FFG can claim there is still value in the cards as printed, but allow tournament play to have a higher standard. We have a few younger players who don't follow the latest online news, so for them the printed cards hold more value and are easier. I agree that anyone aware of the changes will want to use the updated costs, though. I mostly play casually at home and will definitely be using the new points.

[Cusm 466]

I am still hoping they do a card box release or at the least the Imperial Assault OP Kit cards with the erattaed info as long as they do not do the X-Wing/Armada "these are the changes - no new cards for YOU!

[GreatMazinkaiser 1,335]

FFG ruining the usefulness of physical (and legally required) player aids is certainly nothing new...

[Cusm 466]

20 minutes ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

FFG ruining the usefulness of physical (and legally required) player aids is certainly nothing new...

Maybe I need to find some of the old LCG players that created custom cards and have them run a batch.

[That Blasted Samophlange 6,931]

19 minutes ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

FFG ruining the usefulness of physical (and legally required) player aids is certainly nothing new...

You would prefer that FFG did nothing about a $65 dollar (Canadian) game piece they doesn't get played at all, like the T-47?   

While I am slightly miffed by my cards not matching the point values,  I think having more game pieces and upgrades back in play offsets any minor inconveniences that may cause.

[GreatMazinkaiser 1,335]

9 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

You would prefer that FFG did nothing about a $65 dollar (Canadian) game piece they doesn't get played at all, like the T-47?   

While I am slightly miffed by my cards not matching the point values,  I think having more game pieces and upgrades back in play offsets any minor inconveniences that may cause.

Not at all... but they could cease requiring a useless physical component at their tournaments. It doesn't really affect me (though I don't generally use upgrades I don't have), but it's still bad.

[TauntaunScout 4,280]

3 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

I know they’re saying the points change is more for competitive play and casual players should just continue with the printed points, but why would anyone not want to use the new points? If the points are meant to balance the game better, it just would seem stupid not to.

For those who need the points on the card, just sleeve your cards and print the new number/errata out, then cut out the words/numbers and place the printout in the sleeves with the card. That’s what I have done with previous errata. We usually don’t get a lot at one time, so it’s not so bad. Not sure if i’ll do the points myself though, since I usually use BattleScribe or TabletopAdmiral for list building and don’t usually look at the numbers while playing. As long as the list builders have all the right points, cards don’t mean much to me, except maybe checking my opponents list, but if I’m that unsure I could easily recreate their list in BS on my phone.

I plan on using my cards to look at which of a myriad of dice and rulers to use at any moment during games, while using online listbuilders to calculate my list. So I don't care which points value is on the card. I always lose by a wide enough margin not to worry about who killed the most stuff.

[DerelictJustice 0]

These changes are cool but I hope they print new cards to match them. I like the simplicity of having cards organized in a binder when building my armies. 

[Caimheul1313 2,993]

4 hours ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

Not at all... but they could cease requiring a useless physical component at their tournaments. It doesn't really affect me (though I don't generally use upgrades I don't have), but it's still bad.

It's the only way they have of ensuring you (or someone else) actually bought their product rather than using painted knockoffs you claim are conversions.

Wet erase markers can also be used to change the value on a sleeve.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Caimheul1313

[Ghost Dancer 401]

The cards are still valid. Its only the points that have changed (in most cases). I don't see the big deal, use one of the several great list builders out there and the printed points are simply not a problem.

For the few cards where the rules have changed, just print the erratad version from the pdf - I did that with the objective cards and slid them over the top of the real card in a sleeve.

[Derrault 1,091]

@RyantheFett
"So I wonder what is left to get buffed? Most of the rocket launchers and ion weapons and jyn/Pathfinder for sure. I wonder about han and the wookies? Maybe i can see a few point shaved off? 

As for empire I don't play them so I can only go by what others would say. Maybe red guards or papa palp?"

In the first half of the stream, when they discussed the adjustment to Strike Teams for competitive play, going from 16 to 20, it was because they felt Strike teams were being overused as a result of being relatively inexpensive slot options, and not because the other Special Forces weren't very good choices.

The implication being, no other special forces are seeing competitive play adjustments.

(Also, for anyone who's reading, but didn't bother looking at the stream: There are only three errata happening (i.e. actual new printed card changes); and those are the removal of plodding from the E-Web, increase to range 5 on the FD Cannon, and capping the range of the Sniper to range 5.

Everything else (i.e. points increase/decrease) are purely for competitive play, and very likely to change on a yearly basis.

@Tirion
"not that I'm going to cry if the Pathfinders get a reduction but again I say..... they are appropriately costed"

When I heard their reasoning, that the points changes are A) not errata, B) only for competitive play, and C) Likely to change yearly, it occurred to me that this is a clever bit of social engineering. 
They can adjust the prices on the most popular non-mandatory unit (strike teams) a tiny bit just to disincentivize it, and wildly slash the price on the least popular units (T-47, AT-ST, AT-RT las-cannon) to encourage players to use them (and if the heavies get used more frequently, that increases the play value of the points reduced anti-armor heavies).

@Dosiere
"I agree but I'd argue their config upgrade is too expensive.  Should be several points cheaper.  They have a good punch base but unlike death troopers are much squishier and lack all the keywords like impact and blast.  Theyre very weak against units in cover at range and require a round or two to get their keywords really working.   

The rebels already have units that can punch hard at range 3.  I think giving them the config upgrade lets them fill a role that really differentiates them from the rebel core options and the commandos but its too expensive now."

If you upgrade the Pathfinders with Bistan and the A-300, they fire 8 white/1 black surge (3.625 expected damage @ Range 4!) with impact 1 and ion 1, and with nearly 4 damage on average, you can expect that ion to go through on any vehicles; Pao's unit would fire a respectable 5 white, 1 red surge (2.75 @ range 4)

That's pretty dang good (and it only gets better at closer ranges), all things considered.

@JediPartisan
"I know they’re saying the points change is more for competitive play and casual players should just continue with the printed points, but why would anyone not want to use the new points? If the points are meant to balance the game better, it just would seem stupid not to."

I suspect it's more that they know the cards were already mathematically balanced, but players still refused to try them in competitive play in spite of that.

This adjustment is to bring competitive players out of their shells and encourage a wider array of list types in the higher profile competitions, not because any points change actually was needed within the context of the games balance.

@Cusm
"I am still hoping they do a card box release or at the least the Imperial Assault OP Kit cards with the erattaed info as long as they do not do the X-Wing/Armada "these are the changes - no new cards for YOU!"

They only errata'd 3 things, and those things are, they said, going to be printed with the errata going forward. So, if you got promo's in the future, those promos would have the new ranges/no long have the plodding key word on Ewebs.

Any points adjustment is just a competitive season change to influence the list-building of players, nothing more. They even said reprinting with different point costs, would just confuse players.

[KommanderKeldoth 3,164]

8 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Agreed.  I understood their explanation for the changes to the Rebel Vet's heavy weapon, but the fact that a they had to tweak a unit that's been out just over a month is worry some.  I don't want this game becoming X-Wing. 

When I started playing Legion I had hoped that points and upgrade slots would be ALL app based like X-Wing 2.0

Its honestly a much better business model for the consumer and the designers. Im glad Legion is starting to move in that direction.

I alwats use tabletop admiral to build my lists so the printed points on the card never really matter to me anyway.

[Tris87TJ 79]

9 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Agreed.  I understood their explanation for the changes to the Rebel Vet's heavy weapon, but the fact that a they had to tweak a unit that's been out just over a month is worry some.  I don't want this game becoming X-Wing. 

I think another reason that they had to tweak it is to make it more in line with all the new weapons costs from the discount. With the ion rifle being cheaper (I would also put my money on the fleet troopers grenade launcher) the upgrades and parameters it was originally designed against have changed (they usually start designing something a year before they announce it) hence the tweak. I'm happy they're being proactive about this and not leaving it for next time.

[Ralgon 1,005]

9 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Agreed.  I understood their explanation for the changes to the Rebel Vet's heavy weapon, but the fact that a they had to tweak a unit that's been out just over a month is worry some.  I don't want this game becoming X-Wing. 

If you're a vet of ffg games then you are well aware these changes are locked in months before a unit releases, and that for the most part the "playtesters" they have access too are near toxic for their games.... personally it's been a pleasant surprise how well they've done so far.......

[arnoldrew 1,726]

2 hours ago, Derrault said:

@RyantheFett
"So I wonder what is left to get buffed? Most of the rocket launchers and ion weapons and jyn/Pathfinder for sure. I wonder about han and the wookies? Maybe i can see a few point shaved off? 

As for empire I don't play them so I can only go by what others would say. Maybe red guards or papa palp?"

In the first half of the stream, when they discussed the adjustment to Strike Teams for competitive play, going from 16 to 20, it was because they felt Strike teams were being overused as a result of being relatively inexpensive slot options, and not because the other Special Forces weren't very good choices.

The implication being, no other special forces are seeing competitive play adjustments.

(Also, for anyone who's reading, but didn't bother looking at the stream: There are only three errata happening (i.e. actual new printed card changes); and those are the removal of plodding from the E-Web, increase to range 5 on the FD Cannon, and capping the range of the Sniper to range 5.

Everything else (i.e. points increase/decrease) are purely for competitive play, and very likely to change on a yearly basis.

@Tirion
"not that I'm going to cry if the Pathfinders get a reduction but again I say..... they are appropriately costed"

When I heard their reasoning, that the points changes are A) not errata, B) only for competitive play, and C) Likely to change yearly, it occurred to me that this is a clever bit of social engineering. 
They can adjust the prices on the most popular non-mandatory unit (strike teams) a tiny bit just to disincentivize it, and wildly slash the price on the least popular units (T-47, AT-ST, AT-RT las-cannon) to encourage players to use them (and if the heavies get used more frequently, that increases the play value of the points reduced anti-armor heavies).

@Dosiere
"I agree but I'd argue their config upgrade is too expensive.  Should be several points cheaper.  They have a good punch base but unlike death troopers are much squishier and lack all the keywords like impact and blast.  Theyre very weak against units in cover at range and require a round or two to get their keywords really working.   

The rebels already have units that can punch hard at range 3.  I think giving them the config upgrade lets them fill a role that really differentiates them from the rebel core options and the commandos but its too expensive now."

If you upgrade the Pathfinders with Bistan and the A-300, they fire 8 white/1 black surge (3.625 expected damage @ Range 4!) with impact 1 and ion 1, and with nearly 4 damage on average, you can expect that ion to go through on any vehicles; Pao's unit would fire a respectable 5 white, 1 red surge (2.75 @ range 4)

That's pretty dang good (and it only gets better at closer ranges), all things considered.

@JediPartisan
"I know they’re saying the points change is more for competitive play and casual players should just continue with the printed points, but why would anyone not want to use the new points? If the points are meant to balance the game better, it just would seem stupid not to."

I suspect it's more that they know the cards were already mathematically balanced, but players still refused to try them in competitive play in spite of that.

This adjustment is to bring competitive players out of their shells and encourage a wider array of list types in the higher profile competitions, not because any points change actually was needed within the context of the games balance.

@Cusm
"I am still hoping they do a card box release or at the least the Imperial Assault OP Kit cards with the erattaed info as long as they do not do the X-Wing/Armada "these are the changes - no new cards for YOU!"

They only errata'd 3 things, and those things are, they said, going to be printed with the errata going forward. So, if you got promo's in the future, those promos would have the new ranges/no long have the plodding key word on Ewebs.

Any points adjustment is just a competitive season change to influence the list-building of players, nothing more. They even said reprinting with different point costs, would just confuse players.

The forums have a built-in way to do quotes. The way you do them it is incredibly difficult to differentiate between what they said and what you're saying.

[Derrault 1,091]

11 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

The forums have a built-in way to do quotes. The way you do them it is incredibly difficult to differentiate between what they said and what you're saying.

Sometimes I’m drafting comments outside of the forums and copying them to it. In any case, it uses literal quotation marks, so as long as you aren’t skimming....

[Caimheul1313 2,993]

43 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Sometimes I’m drafting comments outside of the forums and copying them to it. In any case, it uses literal quotation marks, so as long as you aren’t skimming....

Then just @ the original author and linking the message in a url is another way to approach it, which also works for responding to very large comments.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Caimheul1313

[Caimheul1313 2,993]

2 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

When I started playing Legion I had hoped that points and upgrade slots would be ALL app based like X-Wing 2.0

Its honestly a much better business model for the consumer and the designers. Im glad Legion is starting to move in that direction.

I alwats use tabletop admiral to build my lists so the printed points on the card never really matter to me anyway.

I'm not entirely convince app based is best, as I know many people who avoid buying FFG board games that require an app, and that avoided X-Wing 2.0 for the same reason. If the app goes away for some reason, then the game is unplayable.

 Also I don't really see this as Legion "moving towards X-Wing" more as legion moving towards 40k. 

As an aside, saying the change is "just for competitive" is silly, since competitive players like to practice lists casually, so invariably the casual scene tends to follow the competitive rules. Groups that don't have competitive players occasionally have house rules to improve the feel of the game to what they want anyway, regardless of any comments by the designers.

[Derrault 1,091]

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Then just @ the original author and linking the message in a url is another way to approach it, which also works for responding to very large comments.

/shrug agree to disagree

[KommanderKeldoth 3,164]

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I'm not entirely convince app based is best, as I know many people who avoid buying FFG board games that require an app, and that avoided X-Wing 2.0 for the same reason. If the app goes away for some reason, then the game is unplayable.

 Also I don't really see this as Legion "moving towards X-Wing" more as legion moving towards 40k

Oh I dont use the official X-Wing app. That thing is hot garbage. I use one of the many fine third party list builders that the community has made. Im not mad that they didnt put out a Legion app with the point changes becuase they probably learned from X-Wing that the community will do a better job at making an easy to use piece of software. If the official X-Wing app went away I wouldn't even notice.

40k and other games are moving to incorporate apps and the internet becuase it's just where the industry is going. Where it SHOULD go in my opinion. I would rather have a living document that can be adjusted and balanced on the fly instead of waiting years and years and then have to buy a new book or expansion to fix units.

[Caimheul1313 2,993]

24 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Oh I dont use the official X-Wing app. That thing is hot garbage. I use one of the many fine third party list builders that the community has made. Im not mad that they didnt put out a Legion app with the point changes becuase they probably learned from X-Wing that the community will do a better job at making an easy to use piece of software. If the official X-Wing app went away I wouldn't even notice.

40k and other games are moving to incorporate apps and the internet becuase it's just where the industry is going. Where it SHOULD go in my opinion. I would rather have a living document that can be adjusted and balanced on the fly instead of waiting years and years and then have to buy a new book or expansion to fix units.

Except I haven't seen any significant move by 40k or really any other game to incorporate apps. 40k is just releasing more PDFs which still require you to buy whatever the most recent codex/rulebook in addition to regularly checking online to see if a new update has been released. And many of them that do have apps, require a second purchase in addition to the physical book, rather than providing some kind of discount code in a similar vein to some college textbooks. 

[nashjaee 750]

19 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Except I haven't seen any significant move by 40k or really any other game to incorporate apps.

Infinity is an example of a game that has a fantastic app which they update quite regularly. I don't think anyone uses PDFs or books. Actually I'm not even sure how up-to-date the PDFs are kept, as all the dates seem to be too old to be currently accurate.

The community has thoroughly embraced the app-based system.

[devin.pike.1989 1,546]

Errata sticker sheet.  Solved.