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Ahrimon

A more comprehensive ship list

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Viluppo is a great resource, but I was hoping that there was a more comprehensive list of ships out there.  Something that included a few more of the different stats on the ships.  Preferably with armor, HT, SS, sheilds, etc.  I'm trying to select a good ship for my game and there's just too many books to go through.

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13 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

Viluppo is a great resource, but I was hoping that there was a more comprehensive list of ships out there.  Something that included a few more of the different stats on the ships.  Preferably with armor, HT, SS, sheilds, etc.  I'm trying to select a good ship for my game and there's just too many books to go through.

Check out the kst-100 in dawn of rebellion, it's the perfect eote legal (120K) starting ship for most parties.   It's sil 3, speed 4, armor 2, something like 20 htt, something like 18 sst, short sensors, I think 70 enc, 4 state rooms for passengers, plus room for the crew of 2 in a berth under the cockpit,  twin light lasers, and it looks freaking cool.  4 or 5 hp.  Widely considered to be better than any other starting ship.

You can also look at the ship crafting rules in the nubian design collective's whole vehicle crafting handbook (intended to be minimum neccessary departure from official ship crafting rules needed to reproduce 95% of official ships with a 95% quality match and it comes pretty close to that... balanced too... work in progress, you can help by trying to break/abuse the rules and then telling me if and how you succeeded) look over in the AoR forum for the thread.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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22 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

kst-100

I've seen you mention this ship more times than I can count.  I'd almost think that you were a fan.  :D

However, it's stats are so far past amazing that it clearly falls into the cheese, and how did that get past quality control categories.  I like to number crunch, but I do have limits on my power gaming.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

If you don’t mind home brewed stats for canon and Legends ships check out This is the blog You’re Looking For’s Shipyard.

I'm not the GM, so I need to keep things from the books.  I appreciate it though.

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1 hour ago, Ahrimon said:

I've seen you mention this ship more times than I can count.  I'd almost think that you were a fan.  :D

However, it's stats are so far past amazing that it clearly falls into the cheese, and how did that get past quality control categories.  I like to number crunch, but I do have limits on my power gaming.

I'm not the GM, so I need to keep things from the books.  I appreciate it though.

My issue with it is it is sil3 instead of sil4, other than that it's a look at it funny and shrug "what the heck, why not?" because there are a handful of comparable ships.

The croc gonzati is past where I draw the line though.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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17 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

I've seen you mention this ship more times than I can count.  I'd almost think that you were a fan.  :D

However, it's stats are so far past amazing that it clearly falls into the cheese, and how did that get past quality control categories.  I like to number crunch, but I do have limits on my power gaming.

I'm not the GM, so I need to keep things from the books.  I appreciate it though.

He likes fast ships, I like big ships with lots of cargo and passenger space and plenty of firepower.

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If you want a good solid starfighter, the beezelbub..no, bable blub....no, the blub blub....grrrr... the Belbullab-22! That's the one! It's in Collapse of the Republic.  Really solid statline. Then there's the ARC-170 on the same page. Sil 3, 4 Armor, 18 Hull, 10 SST and solid weaponry. The only downside I see are it's crew requirements.

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7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

He likes fast ships, I like big ships with lots of cargo and passenger space and plenty of firepower.

Yz-900 isn't RAW, isn't that big, and even if you use the complute bogus (inconsistent with comparable RAW ships in htt and strain) this is the blog your looking for stats doesn't have that much cargo capacity and the firepower isn't that impressive.

But if you take the ir-3f and add a hyperdrive and a few droid brains you get everything you just said you valued and it's fast.

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18 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Yz-900 isn't RAW, isn't that big, and even if you use the complute bogus (inconsistent with comparable RAW ships in htt and strain) this is the blog your looking for stats doesn't have that much cargo capacity and the firepower isn't that impressive.

But if you take the ir-3f and add a hyperdrive and a few droid brains you get everything you just said you valued and it's fast.

At 54.3 meters in length, it's Sil 5, that's pretty big,  particularly for a ship that only needs a handful of crew. And 500 tons of cargo capacity and comfortable room for 14 passengers (its stats from the original source material, which, by the way, is what This is the Blog You're Looking for based its stats on) is rather high as well. And a weapons load-out of two twin heavy laser cannons, two twin medium laser cannons and two concussion missile launchers is not anything to laugh at either. That's military grade weaponry. That's some serious firepower for a ship of its type. The Ir-3F is never going to hold 500 tons of cargo or 14 passengers, nor have the same amount of fire power. 

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Military in the sense of a coast-guard cutter *maybe*.  The ir-3f is a literal customs enforcement  vessel, i.e. a coast guard analog, and it has two twin light turbolasers and two twin medium laser cannons which seriously outguns the yz-900. You don't seem to be accounting for the fact that star wars spacecraft are serious up-gunned compared to real world analogs.  Most civilian boats and planes don't mount vehicle weapons in real life but most star wars civillian spacecraft do.  That ought to tell you something.  Does the yz-900 have serious firepower for a civilian tramp freighter (i.e. a ship of its type), most certainly, but if a sil 5 doesn't have light turbolasers, or heavier weaponry (or a massive number of smaller guns for use as a star fighter screening picket ship), then it isn't star wars galaxy military grade firepower.  A Corellian Corvette straddles the line between civilian and real military (not just coast guard) and it is much better armed than either a yz-900 or ir-3f.

And the ir-3f has 1800 enc, so again no comparison (an easy win for the ir-3f). Crew space for crew who do nothing is essentially passenger space, and automation frees up crew space.  However the biggest issue with the this is the blog your looking for stats for the yz-900 is the absurdly high hull trauma threshold (if I recall correctly, the system strain was also over the top, though I'm not sure I'm remember the stats correctly).  Oh and it has extremel range sensors too.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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20 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Military in the sense of a coast-guard cutter *maybe*.  The ir-3f is a literal customs enforcement  vessel, i.e. a coast guard analog, and it has two twin light turbolasers and two twin medium laser cannons which seriously outguns the yz-900. You don't seem to be accounting for the fact that star wars spacecraft are serious up-gunned compared to real world analogs.  Most civilian boats and planes don't mount vehicle weapons in real life but most star wars civillian spacecraft do.  That ought to tell you something.  Does the yz-900 have serious firepower for a civilian tramp freighter (i.e. a ship of its type), most certainly, but if a sil 5 doesn't have light turbolasers, or heavier weaponry (or a massive number of smaller guns for use as a star fighter screening picket ship), then it isn't star wars galaxy military grade firepower.  A Corellian Corvette straddles the line between civilian and real military (not just coast guard) and it is much better armed than either a yz-900 or ir-3f.

And the ir-3f has 1800 enc, so again no comparison (an easy win for the ir-3f). Crew space for crew who do nothing is essentially passenger space, and automation frees up crew space.  However the biggest issue with the this is the blog your looking for stats for the yz-900 is the absurdly high hull trauma threshold (if I recall correctly, the system strain was also over the top, though I'm not sure I'm remember the stats correctly).  Oh and it has extremel range sensors too.

The IR-3F is a Light Frigate; a Capital ship. The CR-90 is a Corvette; a Capital ship. The YZ-900 is a Medium Transport,  and is half the IR-3F's length; and one third the length of the CR-90.  It's only a few meters larger than the VCX-100, a Light Freighter (also Sil 5).  The YZ-900 is not a capital ship. These ships may be the same Silhouette, but they are not the same size. The IR-35 and CR-90 are significantly larger than the YZ-900. The YZ-900 has two turret mounted twin HEAVY Laser cannons and two twin Medium Laser cannons, as well as two Concussion Missile Launchers. And those are all standard equipment.  

Quote

Line

Model

YZ-900

Class

Technical specifications

Length

54.5 meters

Armament

Crew

8

Minimum crew

2

Passengers

14

Cargo capacity

500 metric tons

From Wookieepedia: YZ_900 Freighter, original source SW Gamer #2. 

 

 

Quote

IR-3F-class light frigate

Production information

Cost

  • New: 2,500,000 credits[2]
  • Used: 1,000,000 credits[2]

Technical specifications

Length

110 meters[1]

Maximum atmospheric speed

1,000 kph[1]

Hyperdrive system

None[1]

Shielding

Equipped[1]

Armament

Turbolaser cannon turrets (4)[1] or heavy laser cannons (4; fire-linked)[2]

Crew

11,[2] including 8 gunners[1]

Minimum crew

1[1]

Passengers

10 troops[1]

Cargo capacity

180 metric tons[1]

Consumables

3 months[1]

Usage

Role(s)

Patrol ship

From Wookieepedia: IR-3F, Original Source:  Truce at Bakura Sourcebook

The IR-3F only has a cargo capacity of 180 tons. How it's game stats give it an encumbrance ten times its max tonnage is beyond me. The YZ-900 has a cargo capacity of 500 tons. Using that same "tonnage to Encumbrance conversion", the YZ-900, would have an encumbrance of 5000. Think about that. 

So, technically, the YZ-900 canonically exceeds the cargo capacity of the IR-3F, by nearly three times. And it also exceeds its passenger capacity.

Once again, this is the game developers ignoring the original source material and making it up whole cloth, just like they did with the YZ-775. The YZ-775 should have a passenger capacity of Fourteen, not zero' because that is what the original source material lists its passenger capacity as. And that is only one of the issues with its stats from Dangerous Covenants

Remember, the game developers don't have a set formula for their ship stats. They don't base their stats on the existing lore. They make it up as they go along. They've explicitly stated this on numerous occasionsThe stats that were given for the YZ-900 by the creator of This is the Blog You're Looking For used the actual canon specifications from their original sources as the basis for their game stats, and as such are more accurate and faithful to the lore and canon than the official FFG stats of many, if not most,  of these ships. In fact, this is what they do for all of their ship stats. As Bastion points out on the Shipyard:

Quote

I have tried my best to research these ships and make them as accurate as possible within the rules set of EotE. I try to make stats only for ships that have sufficient information that i feel comfortable in the accuracy of my stats.

In Ships Complement section 
an entry of  " Co-Pilot/Engineer (1) "  means that ship REQUIRES a co-pilot or engineer to function.
an entry of  " Co-Pilot/Engineer (1o) " indicates that the ship has space for an Optional co-pilot/engineer, but does not require one to function.
In entries that simply list a crew number, it is assumed that this is an average crew size. The ship could likely be flown or operated at a basic level by a vastly smaller number of individuals.

If you don't like the stats on a particular ship, feel free to change them as you feel fit.

Bastion researches the ships he makes stats for; he doesn't make them up whole cloth, but bases them on the actual original source material. FFG does not do that. They make their ship stats up whole cloth with no regard to what the original source material states. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The IR-3F is a Light Frigate; a Capital ship. The CR-90 is a Corvette; a Capital ship. The YZ-900 is a Medium Transport,  and is half the IR-3F's length; and one third the length of the CR-90.  It's only a few meters larger than the VCX-100, a Light Freighter (also Sil 5).  The YZ-900 is not a capital ship. These ships may be the same Silhouette, but they are not the same size. The IR-35 and CR-90 are significantly larger than the YZ-900. The YZ-900 has two turret mounted twin HEAVY Laser cannons and two twin Medium Laser cannons, as well as two Concussion Missile Launchers. And those are all standard equipment.  

From Wookieepedia: YZ_900 Freighter, original source SW Gamer #2. 

 

 

From Wookieepedia: IR-3F, Original Source:  Truce at Bakura Sourcebook

The IR-3F only has a cargo capacity of 180 tons. How it's game stats give it an encumbrance ten times its max tonnage is beyond me. The YZ-900 has a cargo capacity of 500 tons. Using that same "tonnage to Encumbrance conversion", the YZ-900, would have an encumbrance of 5000. Think about that. 

So, technically, the YZ-900 canonically exceeds the cargo capacity of the IR-3F, by nearly three times. And it also exceeds its passenger capacity.

Once again, this is the game developers ignoring the original source material and making it up whole cloth, just like they did with the YZ-775. The YZ-775 should have a passenger capacity of Fourteen, not zero' because that is what the original source material lists its passenger capacity as. And that is only one of the issues with its stats from Dangerous Covenants

Remember, the game developers don't have a set formula for their ship stats. They don't base their stats on the existing lore. They make it up as they go along. They've explicitly stated this on numerous occasionsThe stats that were given for the YZ-900 by the creator of This is the Blog You're Looking For used the actual canon specifications from their original sources as the basis for their game stats, and as such are more accurate and faithful to the lore and canon than the official FFG stats of many, if not most,  of these ships. In fact, this is what they do for all of their ship stats. As Bastion points out on the Shipyard:

Bastion researches the ships he makes stats for; he doesn't make them up whole cloth, but bases them on the actual original source material. FFG does not do that. They make their ship stats up whole cloth with no regard to what the original source material states. 

Like I said, the yz-900 is well armed for a civilian transport but it does not have military grade firepower for a sil 5 ship. You seem to be simultaneously acknowledging  and rejecting that.

When there is a CANON (and legends doesn't count) stat that contradicts a ffg ship stat, then it can be argued that a line item change should be made to that statistic of that ship.  It does not by any stretch of the imagination justify throwing out the entire statblock of the ship, especially ones for which no canon number has been given.  And speed in space is completely irrelevant, it means nothing.  Does that mean ffg ships won't always be perfectly faithful to their original legends depictions? Yes.  But there is a lot of crap in legends (the reason it was deep sixed as a whole other than line item exceptions).

While a flew glaring exceptions (croc gonzatti I'm looking at you) have made it past quality control, Ffg game designers have largely tried to eyeball inject common sense  (speed, hull trauma, system strain, enc, and crew) based on the size and mission of the ship.  Bastion has not injected common sense thus his ship stats are not comparable/equivalent to RAW ships.  In other words while his ships have stats named the same as ffg stats they don't mean the same thing as the raw ship stats with the same name.

For example Bastion has statted quite a few sil 5 ships with speed 4, which is clearly very very erroneous (he routinely goes high for speed) and his numbers for hull trauma and strain are off too, those things don't have cannon values because they are rpg statistics and nothing more. 

 

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16 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Like I said, the yz-900 is well armed for a civilian transport but it does not have military grade firepower for a sil 5 ship. You seem to be simultaneously acknowledging  and rejecting that.

When there is a CANON (and legends doesn't count) stat that contradicts a ffg ship stat, then it can be argued that a line item change should be made to that statistic of that ship.  It does not by any stretch of the imagination justify throwing out the entire statblock of the ship, especially ones for which no canon number has been given.  And speed in space is completely irrelevant, it means nothing.  Does that mean ffg ships won't always be perfectly faithful to their original legends depictions? Yes.  But there is a lot of crap in legends (the reason it was deep sixed as a whole other than line item exceptions).

While a flew glaring exceptions (croc gonzatti I'm looking at you) have made it past quality control, Ffg game designers have largely tried to eyeball inject common sense  (speed, hull trauma, system strain, enc, and crew) based on the size and mission of the ship.  Bastion has not injected common sense thus his ship stats are not comparable/equivalent to RAW ships.  In other words while his ships have stats named the same as ffg stats they don't mean the same thing as the raw ship stats with the same name.

For example Bastion has statted quite a few sil 5 ships with speed 4, which is clearly very very erroneous (he routinely goes high for speed) and his numbers for hull trauma and strain are off too, those things don't have cannon values because they are rpg statistics and nothing more. 

 

It has military grade firepower for a Sil 5 ship of its specific size and length, not for a capital ship. Both the IR-35 and CR-90 are capital ships in excess of 100+ meters in length. The YZ-900 is only 54.3 meters in length. It's half the length of a Ir-3F, and about one eight the volume. It's about one twenty-seventh the volume of a CR-90. It's not a capital ship. As such, it's not going to have capital ship weapons. And the original source material specifically states that it has military grade weapons and armor. The entire YZ series was designed for military and paramilitary use. They were designed for combat.

 

As for Bastion statting a number of Sil 5 ships with Speed 4. Your point? First, there was no rule on the books stating that Sil 5 ships were limited to Speed 3 or less when these ships were statted. That didn't come about until Fully Operational's Ship crafting rules came out. Secondly, those speeds were determined based upon the actual speeds in KMpH given in the original source materials. They weren't pulled out of thin air. So, if the original source material stated that a given ship traveled at a speed that warranted a Speed of 4, it got a speed of 4. These stats weren't arbitrarily chosen. They were based upon the original canon specs of each ship. So  no, they're not erroneous. They are accurate to the original specs from the original source materials. For example, according the the original sources, the IR-3F has a top atmospheric speed of 1000 KMpH. That comes directly from the Truce at Bakura Sourcebook. That's only 50 KmpH slower than the T-65 X-wing, which has a Speed of 5.  It has a top speed nearly just as fast as a snub-fighter. Think about that. So, by all rights, the IR-3F should also have a speed of 5 regardless of its Silhouette. That's because canonically, it is specifically stated to have roughly the same top speed as the X-wing. So, yes, he gave some Sil 5 ships a speed of 4. That's what the original source materials required. 

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First thing... non canonical sources like the truce at bakura or star wars gamer don't even mean diddly in terms of justifying ffg star wars stats.

On 9/6/2019 at 1:48 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

As for Bastion statting a number of Sil 5 ships with Speed 4. Your point? First, there was no rule on the books stating that Sil 5 ships were limited to Speed 3 or less when these ships were statted. That didn't come about until Fully Operational's Ship crafting rules came out.

Second, reread what you wrote about Bastion's approach to assign ship speed... you didn't fault him for it but you admitted that he didn't follow ffg ship statting conventions.... boom... you admitted that his stats aren't comparable to official ffg ship stats.  Thank you for conceding.

Now regardless of the release date of fully operational, I think there are NOW something like 5 official ffg sil 5 ships that have speed 4 (without high output ion turbines), which sets a very clear precedent that sil 5 ships by and large shouldn't have speed 5.  Back when those stats were created there might have been 1 or 2 sil 5 ships with speed 4, which makes the case even stronger, while the rule hadn't been explicitly stated, it was being observed which is something Bastion should have picked up on.

Also the YZ-775 was statted in dangerous covenants, one of the earliest splat books released, so depending on the specific timeline, Bastion may have had a close analog to use as a baseline for converting the yz-900.  That he didn't stat the YZ-775 suggests that dangerous covenants was out, so that SHOULD HAVE HAD (but didn't have) a strong influence on his yz-900 stats.

Point is Bastion was working from incorrect assumptions about how ffg ships should be statted and that invalidates (a weird thing to say because they were never valid in the first place) all his ship stats.

Third, it is completely unclear whether an ir-3f is a cap ship.  The nearest real world analog is a coast-guard cutter. So it's sort of military and not obviously a cap ship.  And the ir-3f is the benchmark that the yz-900 should be compared to in order to determine whether it qualifies as military grade and/or a cap ship.

we simply don't agree on the definition of military grade firepower for sil 5 ships, but we both agree that the yz-900 is not supposed to be a cap ship.  However Bastion statted it with capship hull trauma and system strain.  Hence the yz-900 stats are bogus.

Regardless of the invalidity of Bastion's yz-900 stats, you admitted to my original point that the ir-3f  better fulfills the qualities that you claimed to value earlier in this thread than the yz-900 does.

This https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinel-class_cutter is the real world equivalent of an ir-3f.

Here's the thing, it is debatable whether an ir-3f (basically a coast guard cutter) counts as military or it counts as paramilitary (read paramiltary as sub-military quality fighting force).  The yz-900 is so far below the ir-3f (the debatable threshold) that whether it's military instead of only paramilitary just isn't debatable (despite your completely ineffective attempts to debate/argue this).  The yz-900 qualifies as having paramilitary (sub-military fighting force) grade but not military grade firepower.

Also if one wanted to critique the speed of either the xwing or ir-3f, the xwing would be the one to critique as being too high.  The normal conversion from d6 stats was divide its space speed by 2 round up, which would put it at 4.  But they "decreased" it's maneuverability/handling and bumped the speed up by a point (going from memory the awing was 12, tie int was 11, tie ln was 10, xwing was 8, ywing was 7, and xwing had 3d maneuverability in d6).  The ir-3f in truce at bakura had a space speed of 7 same as a ywing, divided by 2 round up is 4, same as a y wing.  So even if you were using formula to convert from the original source material (a flawed premise), there still isn't a reason to criticize the ir-3f's speed of 4 in ffg.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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On 9/9/2019 at 9:29 AM, EliasWindrider said:

First thing... non canonical sources like the truce at bakura or star wars gamer don't even mean diddly in terms of justifying ffg star wars stats.

Second, reread what you wrote about Bastion's approach to assign ship speed... you didn't fault him for it but you admitted that he didn't follow ffg ship statting conventions.... boom... you admitted that his stats aren't comparable to official ffg ship stats.  Thank you for conceding.

Now regardless of the release date of fully operational, I think there are NOW something like 5 official ffg sil 5 ships that have speed 4 (without high output ion turbines), which sets a very clear precedent that sil 5 ships by and large shouldn't have speed 5.  Back when those stats were created there might have been 1 or 2 sil 5 ships with speed 4, which makes the case even stronger, while the rule hadn't been explicitly stated, it was being observed which is something Bastion should have picked up on.

Also the YZ-775 was statted in dangerous covenants, one of the earliest splat books released, so depending on the specific timeline, Bastion may have had a close analog to use as a baseline for converting the yz-900.  That he didn't stat the YZ-775 suggests that dangerous covenants was out, so that SHOULD HAVE HAD (but didn't have) a strong influence on his yz-900 stats.

Point is Bastion was working from incorrect assumptions about how ffg ships should be statted and that invalidates (a weird thing to say because they were never valid in the first place) all his ship stats.

Third, it is completely unclear whether an ir-3f is a cap ship.  The nearest real world analog is a coast-guard cutter. So it's sort of military and not obviously a cap ship.  And the ir-3f is the benchmark that the yz-900 should be compared to in order to determine whether it qualifies as military grade and/or a cap ship.

we simply don't agree on the definition of military grade firepower for sil 5 ships, but we both agree that the yz-900 is not supposed to be a cap ship.  However Bastion statted it with capship hull trauma and system strain.  Hence the yz-900 stats are bogus.

Regardless of the invalidity of Bastion's yz-900 stats, you admitted to my original point that the ir-3f  better fulfills the qualities that you claimed to value earlier in this thread than the yz-900 does.

This https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinel-class_cutter is the real world equivalent of an ir-3f.

Here's the thing, it is debatable whether an ir-3f (basically a coast guard cutter) counts as military or it counts as paramilitary (read paramiltary as sub-military quality fighting force).  The yz-900 is so far below the ir-3f (the debatable threshold) that whether it's military instead of only paramilitary just isn't debatable (despite your completely ineffective attempts to debate/argue this).  The yz-900 qualifies as having paramilitary (sub-military fighting force) grade but not military grade firepower.

Also if one wanted to critique the speed of either the xwing or ir-3f, the xwing would be the one to critique as being too high.  The normal conversion from d6 stats was divide it's space speed by 2 round up, which would put it at 4.  But they "decreased" it's maneuverability/handling and bumped the speed up by a point (going from memory the awing was 12, tie int was 11, tie ln was 10, xwing was 8, ywing was 7, and xwing had 3d maneuverability in d6).  The ir-3f in truce at bakura had a space speed of 7 same as a ywing, divided by 2 round up is 4, same as a y wing.  So even if you were using formula to convert from the original source material (a flawed premise), there still isn't a reason to criticize the ir-3f's speed of 4 in ffg.

IT's not conceding anything., IF anything, I'm saying FFG's stating conventions are bonkers. And, for the record, Bastion wrote his stats for the YZ-775 before the Dangerous Covenants version came out. He didn't create alternate versions of ships already published. He created stats for ships that didn't  yet have official stats. And, if and when official stats did come out, he notated in in the Shipyard next to his version, and where they could be found.

As for Bastion's YZ-900 hull Trauma and System Strain, They're not bogus at all considering, that once again, this matches the original source material. The original source material gave the YZ-900 150 Shield Points and 240 Hull Points. The IPV Systems Patrol Craft (120 meter long capital ship) has 250 Shield Points and 330 Hull Points. That's only a difference of 90 hull points. The 190 meter long Marauder Corvette had 200 Shield Points and only 300 Hull Points according to the same source. Compared to the YZ-900, that's only a 60 point difference for a ship that's even larger. And, the YZ-900 has comparable Damage Reduction to those larger ships as well (DR 15 for the YZ-900 compared to DR 20 for the Maurauder, and the YZ-775 had DR 20). So, Bastion's stats are, once again, more accurate to the source material. They're not over-powered. 

The IR3F is a capital ship. The YZ-900 is not a capital ship. That's the difference. You're comparing apples to oranges. They may be the same silhouette, but they are vastly different in actual size. So, if the Ir-3F is analogous of a Coastguard Cutter, the YZ-900 is analogous to a PT boat. IT has military grade firepower for a ship of its size. Specifically it has military grade firepower for a non-capital ship. 

And, as for "normal conversions" where are you getting your numbers from. There are no official conversion mechanics. I used the atmospheric speed because that is a hard measure of actual speed in kilometers per hour. The Space speed is an abstract  measure of acceleration. Regardless, if the IR-3F has a speed of 4 in FFG rules, that too breaks the Fully Operational limit for Sil 5 ships to Speed 3. That tells me that the rule isn't that hard and fast of a rule. 

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9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

IT's not conceding anything., IF anything, I'm saying FFG's stating conventions are bonkers. And, for the record, Bastion wrote his stats for the YZ-775 before the Dangerous Covenants version came out. He didn't create alternate versions of ships already published. He created stats for ships that didn't  yet have official stats. And, if and when official stats did come out, he notated in in the Shipyard next to his version, and where they could be found.

As for Bastion's YZ-900 hull Trauma and System Strain, They're not bogus at all considering, that once again, this matches the original source material. The original source material gave the YZ-900 150 Shield Points and 240 Hull Points. The IPV Systems Patrol Craft (120 meter long capital ship) has 250 Shield Points and 330 Hull Points. That's only a difference of 90 hull points. The 190 meter long Marauder Corvette had 200 Shield Points and only 300 Hull Points according to the same source. Compared to the YZ-900, that's only a 60 point difference for a ship that's even larger. And, the YZ-900 has comparable Damage Reduction to those larger ships as well (DR 15 for the YZ-900 compared to DR 20 for the Maurauder, and the YZ-775 had DR 20). So, Bastion's stats are, once again, more accurate to the source material. They're not over-powered. 

The IR3F is a capital ship. The YZ-900 is not a capital ship. That's the difference. You're comparing apples to oranges. They may be the same silhouette, but they are vastly different in actual size. So, if the Ir-3F is analogous of a Coastguard Cutter, the YZ-900 is analogous to a PT boat. IT has military grade firepower for a ship of its size. Specifically it has military grade firepower for a non-capital ship. 

And, as for "normal conversions" where are you getting your numbers from. There are no official conversion mechanics. I used the atmospheric speed because that is a hard measure of actual speed in kilometers per hour. The Space speed is an abstract  measure of acceleration. Regardless, if the IR-3F has a speed of 4 in FFG rules, that too breaks the Fully Operational limit for Sil 5 ships to Speed 3. That tells me that the rule isn't that hard and fast of a rule. 

So if I stat, say Jyn Erso's blaster pistol with a base damage of 10, backed by it's canon performance in the film (it one shots stormtroopers who have 5 WT and 5 Soak), that'd be reasonable stats in your book, despite blaster pistols tend to fall in the 5-8 range of damage?

Obviously my statline is correct and FFGs stats are out of whack and should not be taken into account, despite being used side by side with my creation.

If your argument that the fan stats of the YZ-900 are more valid than official ship stats because they use a better approach than the official one, all official stats must be redone to use the same approach for the YZ-900 to be valid. Otherwise, you're not playing by the same rules. It'll be like showing up with a 20th level ranger to a game of Call of Cthulhu.

 

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Just now, penpenpen said:

So if I stat, say Jyn Erso's blaster pistol with a base damage of 10, backed by it's canon performance in the film (it one shots stormtroopers who have 5 WT and 5 Soak), that'd be reasonable stats in your book, despite blaster pistols tend to fall in the 5-8 range of damage?

Obviously my statline is correct and FFGs stats are out of whack and should not be taken into account, despite being used side by side with my creation.

If your argument that the fan stats of the YZ-900 are more valid than official ship stats because they use a better approach than the official one, all official stats must be redone to use the same approach for the YZ-900 to be valid. Otherwise, you're not playing by the same rules. It'll be like showing up with a 20th level ranger to a game of Call of Cthulhu.

 

That all depends. In the case of your Jyn Erso example, that isn't necessary because damage is affected by how many successes you get, so a really good roll could blow through said storm troopers in one shot without a base Damage 10 weapon. Therefore, the FFG stats for that weapon are fine as is. 

That is not the case with many of their starships. The problem with some of FFG's ship stats is that they're inconsistent, and don't match the canon specs in the original sources. I'm not talking game mechanics stats. I'm talking technical specifications. Passenger capacity, cargo capacity, speed, Crew requirements, Consumables, things of that nature. The best example of this being the YZ-775 in Dangerous Covenants. Canonically, the YZ-775 has a passenger capacity of fourteen, just like the YZ-900, with a cargo capacity of 450 metric tons. Dangerous Covenants gave the YZ-775 a passenger capacity of zero and an encumbrance of 840. Sam Stewart stated flat out that this was intentional because he felt that "the power systems for the turbolasers wouldn't allow room for passengers," even though the original sources specifically establish that the power systems for the turbolasers on the YZ-775 do leave room for fourteen passengers, in staterooms no less. He ignored the original sources, and the canon  in favor of what he felt was how it "should" be, for "reasons". Ergo, intentional or not, the YZ-775 stats in Dangerous Covenants are wrong. The YZ-775 has a passenger capacity of fourteen not zero.

In the case of the IR-3f, according to the original sources, it has a cargo capacity of only 180 metric tons. This is only 30 tons more than what the YT-1300 can carry. FFG gave it an encumbrance capacity of 1800. whereas the YT-1300 has an encumbrance of 165. Where's the consistency here? Where are they getting their numbers from? The cargo capacities FFG gives its starships are all over the place and are totally inconsistent with what their actual technical specifications give them. The same is true of their passenger capacities in many cases, and other technical stats. There is no rhyme nor reason. It's all arbitrary

Bastion got his numbers directly from the original sources. He didn't make them up whole cloth. They're not arbitrary. 

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5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

IT's not conceding anything., IF anything, I'm saying FFG's stating conventions are bonkers.

And by that statement you again conceed that they're not comparable to official ship stats.   You can't logically criticize the RAW stats as being bonkers and have them be comparable to your preferred stats.  But I've never accused you of being logical.

It's a pretty simple concept that @penpenpen gets, maybe his explanation makes more sense to you?

4 hours ago, penpenpen said:

If your argument that the fan stats of the YZ-900 are more valid than official ship stats because they use a better approach than the official one, all official stats must be redone to use the same approach for the YZ-900 to be valid. Otherwise, you're not playing by the same rules. It'll be like showing up with a 20th level ranger to a game of Call of Cthulhu.

 

To further this line of thought and make it "concrete" for you

The Corellian Corvette, consular class light cruiser, yz-900, and YZ-775 are all sil 5 ships made by CEC, which have OCR stats (i.e. they are in the same category... same size category, same manufacturer, same edition of the rpg, the consular shows up unfer the name republic cruiser in ocr), in fact the original and only pre-ffg official stats for the yz-900 and YZ-775 are ocr stats.  So whatever conversion from ocr stats is done to one (the yz-900 for example) to get them into an ffg form must be done to all of their ocr stats.  If we were to apply Bastion's process to the ocr stats for the Corellian Corvette, republic/consular  cruiser, and YZ-775 they would have dramatically higher than official hull trauma and system  strain.  So for Bastion's yz-900 to be used (and be comparable) we'd also Bastion-ize all the ocr era ships.  Or we could just use a conversion of the yz-900 which is consistent with official ffg ships.

And for the record, Bastion's assumption that all classes of ships shoup be converted the same way, vs. a class specific conversion is highly dubious because weapons/armor in ffg have dramatically different statistical behavior than in d20.

 

Also I looked up patrol boats on wikipedia 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_boat

United States Coast GuardEdit

 

Guess what, the sentinel class cutter I linked to, the closest analog (by mission profile) of the ir-3f, is a patrol boat not a cap ship.  Now the sentinel is the largest of the u.s. COAST GUARD (so debatable whether it's paramilitary or military) patrol boats.

If you look at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone-class_patrol_ship which was listed as the current us navy (definitely military) patrol boat on the previous wikipedia link... it seriously outguns the sentinel... so yeah by comparison to the ir-3f/sentinel which is a patrol boat not a cap ship and is debatable whether it's military or only paramilitary... the yz-900 clocks in as having definitively paramilitary grade firepower.

But that's the largest of the debatably military/paramilitary patrol boats in the us coast guard.  What does the smallest, the marine protector come armed with? 2 browning m2 .50 cal machine guns (the sentinel has 4 of those and a 25 mil auto cannon.  if the 25 mil auto cannon accounts for the light turbolasers.... and the medium lasers (6 damage) are the m2 machine guns.   Then the yz-900's weapon load out (which all do 6 damage) come over as m2 machine guns.  So yeah the yz-900 is armed like an old outdated coast guard patrol boat.  And it's debatable whether the coast-guard counts as military or paramilitary... I'd argue the coast guard has paramilitary grade firepower.

So if by "military grade firepower" you mean outdated, undergunned coast guard cast offs (which seems like the very definition of paramilitary grade firepower to me)... then, for that very peculiar definition, one could make the dubious arguement that the yz-900 has "military  grade firepower."

 

Edited by EliasWindrider

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On 9/10/2019 at 6:05 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

In the case of the IR-3f, according to the original sources, it has a cargo capacity of only 180 metric tons. This is only 30 tons more than what the YT-1300 can carry. FFG gave it an encumbrance capacity of 1800. whereas the YT-1300 has an encumbrance of 165. Where's the consistency here? Where are they getting their numbers from? The cargo capacities FFG gives its starships are all over the place and are totally inconsistent with what their actual technical specifications give them. The same is true of their passenger capacities in many cases, and other technical stats. There is no rhyme nor reason. It's all arbitrary

Just because you don't understand or agree with the reasons doesn't make them arbitrary.  It seems very much like the size of the ship and its mission profile were the deciding factor in ffg enc in an attempt to bring reason and consistency to various original source material that were all over the place).

Speed in ffg is an abstract measure of acceleration.  Physics in air is not, but good aerodynamics can make up for a worse thrust to mass ratio to achieve the same speed.    Btw what do you think thrust/mass is in the absence of other forces like drag and gravity? Answer: acceleration.  Basically drag is the difference between acceleration and top speed, and drag is strongly influenced by aerodynamics.  So yeah your arguments don't measure up in the face of physics.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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