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Delayed fuses and Dropping mines?

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If you drop a mine under a ship does it detonate before you can place a delayed fuse on the mine? What is the timing of when its overlapped or delayed?

It seems like it might cause it detonates instantly....but wouldnt it have left the ship with the fuse attached? I know that's not written but thematically it makes sense. 

Delayed fuses: After you drop, launch, or place a bomb or mine, you may place 1 fuse marker on that device.

MINE
A mine is a type of device that is placed in the play area through a card effect 
from a (device) upgrade card. The upgrade card that corresponds to the mine has 
the “Mine” trait at the top of its card text. Mines can be dropped or launched
during the System Phase and typically detonate after they are moved through
or overlapped by a ship.

Device:

• If a device is placed overlapping a ship, it is placed under the ship’s base.
• If a device that detonates when overlapped is placed under more than one ship’s base, it detonates instantly and the player placing the device chooses which ship it affects.

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Timing-wise, you can pick and choose.  There are three things that could happen in various order, that need to be addressed:

  1. When do you apply the fuse?
  2. When does the enemy ship overlap the mine?
  3. When does the mine detonate?

In the case of placing a mine directly onto another ship, the overlap happens as soon as the mine is placed.  That causes an effect to fall into the ability queue, of detonating the device.  However, at the SAME TIME, the trigger is reached for deciding whether or not to add a fuse to that mine.  For that reason, after you place the mine on the table, you can see where it lands, and if it overlaps another ship (or not), you can choose to fuse the mine.

This is one way a forward-bombing ship (like a Bombardment Drone) could elect to fling a proximity mine in front of them, then wait and see if it touches the enemy ship or not.  If they miss, then can still Fuse the mine, and fly over it safely, leaving it in place for the enemy to hit later that activation phase.

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I don't think you can choose to add a fuse marker to a mine that is deployed overlapping a ship. Per the rules reference, when a game effect shares a timing window with a player ability, the game effect resolves first. Delayed Fuses is a player ability; device detonations are a game effect. Since they both happen after the device is dropped, the device detonates before there is an opportunity to use Delayed Fuses.

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1 hour ago, Maui. said:

I don't think you can choose to add a fuse marker to a mine that is deployed overlapping a ship. Per the rules reference, when a game effect shares a timing window with a player ability, the game effect resolves first. Delayed Fuses is a player ability; device detonations are a game effect. Since they both happen after the device is dropped, the device detonates before there is an opportunity to use Delayed Fuses.

That is, admittedly, the only sticking point in my interpretation of the rules... we still don't have a comprehensive guide as to what a "game effect" is, compared with a "player ability."

And of course, we also technically don't have specific rules about what happens when you place a mine under a single ship's base. :D

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6 hours ago, SILENT FURY said:

Device:

• If a device is placed overlapping a ship, it is placed under the ship’s base.
• If a device that detonates when overlapped is placed under more than one ship’s base, it detonates instantly and the player placing the device chooses which ship it affects.

There was a lot more about devices in the reference but the second bullet point seems to be talking about placing an device under a ship

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1 hour ago, SILENT FURY said:

There was a lot more about devices in the reference but the second bullet point seems to be talking about placing an device under a ship

You're right, it does talk about what happens when a device is placed under multiple ships.  Can you find where it talks about what happens when it overlaps a single ship?  (Hint:  It's not in there)

The answer is painfully obvious (the mine detonates), but that one piece of the rules has been frustratingly left out, and to date, it has STILL never directly been addressed by the game developers.

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please remember that currently, game effects and player abilities overlap. player abilities are also game effects, just a distinct subgenre of game effects.

my interpretation is that a mine placed overlapping a ship detonates immidiately and the player chooses which ship it affects. that decision and effect could be a player ability, even if it's not very consistent with how other player abilities are "defined" (as in it's not from a pilot or upgrade card, there is currently no clear definition of what constitutes a player ability). in that case, the player could choose to add the fuse to the ability queue before the device detonates.

i don't really think it works that way, though. the device should detonate instantly and the player that placed it should choose which ship it affects as a game effect and not as a player ability. this would make it impossible to fuse mines placed overlapping other ships, which in my mind also kind of makes sense thematically. this interpretation carries more weight, since a device detonating does not seem like an ability at all - and therefore it shouldn't be a player ability.

of course, the fuse could still be added to the ability queue, it just wouldn't have a device to be placed on when the ability triggers.

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9 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

You're right, it does talk about what happens when a device is placed under multiple ships.  Can you find where it talks about what happens when it overlaps a single ship?  (Hint:  It's not in there)

The answer is painfully obvious (the mine detonates), but that one piece of the rules has been frustratingly left out, and to date, it has STILL never directly been addressed by the game developers.

It actually is addressed.. In the FAQ section on pg 26

Quote

Q: Does a Mine, when dropped overlapping a ship in the System Phase, detonate immediately? 
A: Yes. When an object is placed underneath a ship, that ship counts as overlapping that object.

I also agree with Maui.'s interpretation. Even though logically it doesn't make sense (but as we know, this game doesn't always follow real-world logic).

Edited by Lyianx

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1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

It actually is addressed.. In the FAQ section on pg 26

Awesome!  So the ship overlaps the mine!  Oh, wait, there's no rules that say what happens when a ship overlaps a mine.  There are rules that say what happens when a ship overlaps a mine while moving (executing a maneuver or boost/rolling)... but not when a "stationary" ship overlaps a mine due to the mine being placed underneath it.

Again... from a practical standpoint, we know what happens... but from a direct, strict reading of the rules, the situation is not covered.

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4 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Awesome!  So the ship overlaps the mine!  Oh, wait, there's no rules that say what happens when a ship overlaps a mine.  There are rules that say what happens when a ship overlaps a mine while moving (executing a maneuver or boost/rolling)... but not when a "stationary" ship overlaps a mine due to the mine being placed underneath it.

Again... from a practical standpoint, we know what happens... but from a direct, strict reading of the rules, the situation is not covered.

I think you're conflating the rules surrounding devices with the rules surrounding Rigged Cargo Chute and other obstacles that can be dropped on a ship. On page 21 of the RRG, Proximity mines and Conner nets both read: "After a ship overlaps or moves through this device, it detonates." There does not seem to be any ambiguity about what happens when a mine is dropped directly on a ship: the ship overlaps the mine, and the mine detonates immediately.

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19 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Awesome!  So the ship overlaps the mine!  Oh, wait, there's no rules that say what happens when a ship overlaps a mine. 

Again, yes there is. Pg. 21 Proxy Mine/Conner Net

Quote

After a ship overlaps or moves through this device, it detonates

 

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Oh my...  🙂   

conFUSEd I am

a) I thought wordings like 'immediately/instantly/etc.' are NOT timing-related 'game'-terms...???!

So the sentence: a mine is placed under a ship explodes IMMEDIATELY... just clarifies that simply you do not wait till the quasi-normal trigger (ship moving) for it to detonate.  ??

b)  ...again, I don’t know timings or rules, but... 

when does overlapping occur, exactly?!

So timing could be:

- drop a mine

(- after you drop you can fuse)

- then it overlaps 

- and now you check for (immediate) detonation. 

 

Conclusion: I think that you are allowed to fuse whenever you deem fit.

The FuseUpgrade could’ve been worded 'before you place a mine etc.' but that would’ve been too restrictive I guess. 

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1 hour ago, Tellonius said:

Oh my...  🙂   

conFUSEd I am

a) I thought wordings like 'immediately/instantly/etc.' are NOT timing-related 'game'-terms...???!

So the sentence: a mine is placed under a ship explodes IMMEDIATELY... just clarifies that simply you do not wait till the quasi-normal trigger (ship moving) for it to detonate.  ??

b)  ...again, I don’t know timings or rules, but... 

when does overlapping occur, exactly?!

So timing could be:

- drop a mine

(- after you drop you can fuse)

- then it overlaps 

- and now you check for (immediate) detonation. 

 

Conclusion: I think that you are allowed to fuse whenever you deem fit.

The FuseUpgrade could’ve been worded 'before you place a mine etc.' but that would’ve been too restrictive I guess. 

a) That is a clarification from 1E that hasn't been replicated in 2E. And its better to not assume a 1E rule is still in place unless it is written out in the 2E rules. Alot of things got re-worked and some clarification/rulings were made obsolete by the rework. They are not putting in the definition of "immediately" in their game because a real world definition already exists. It means, Instantly. Without any intervening time or space. Until they make a new ruling or clarification on it in 2E, this is the definition we go by.

b) Afraid not. Overlapping (and detonation) are game effects. Placing a fuse is a player effect (because they have the option to place it, its not required). Overlapping happens first.
Also, you cant place a fuse token on an object if the object has yet to be placed. So the "before you place" would never work. This is why cards like Informant have to wait until forces are placed before it can put its condition (ie token) on a ship.

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1 hour ago, Tellonius said:

Oh my...  🙂   

conFUSEd I am

a) I thought wordings like 'immediately/instantly/etc.' are NOT timing-related 'game'-terms...???!

So the sentence: a mine is placed under a ship explodes IMMEDIATELY... just clarifies that simply you do not wait till the quasi-normal trigger (ship moving) for it to detonate.  ??

b)  ...again, I don’t know timings or rules, but... 

when does overlapping occur, exactly?!

So timing could be:

- drop a mine

(- after you drop you can fuse)

- then it overlaps 

- and now you check for (immediate) detonation. 

 

Conclusion: I think that you are allowed to fuse whenever you deem fit.

The FuseUpgrade could’ve been worded 'before you place a mine etc.' but that would’ve been too restrictive I guess. 

from page 9 of the rules reference, under Device:

"To drop a device, follow the steps below:

1. Take the template indicated on the upgrade card.
2. Set the template between the ship’s rear guides.
3. Place the device indicated on the upgrade card into the play area and slide the guides of the device into the opposite end of the template. Then remove the template.

(...)

• If a device is placed overlapping a ship, it is placed under the ship’s base.
• If a device that detonates when overlapped is placed under more than one ship’s base, it detonates instantly and the player placing the device chooses which ship it affects."

in other words, the device is placed. any ship it's placed under overlaps it. there is no timing in between a device being placed and a ship it's placed under overlapping the device.

while you are right, "instantly" is not a defined game term (in fact, it's the only instance of the term being used in the rules reference), we do have a definition of the term in english. there is no indication anywhere that the wording merely indicates we don't wait for another trigger, normal or otherwise.

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6 hours ago, meffo said:

(in fact, it's the only instance of the term being used in the rules reference),

um, not true. Its used a couple places.

 

Quote

1. If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed.
2. Before: The effect resolves immediately preceding the timing specified
3. After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.
4. "...If you do, gain 1 stress token and transfer 1 ion or jam token to that ship.” Since this is a replacement effect, it happens immediately.
5. Does a Mine, when dropped overlapping a ship in the System Phase, detonate immediately?

So its only 1 of 5 instances, but certainly not the only one.

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Woa, thanks!
Seems I'm no longer FUSEd.

Was looking through the rule, too, and immediately found some of these 'immediatelys'. Good to further clarity 2e stuff!

 

So no fusing of mines that overlapp possible.

(At least as far as it can be read/ interpreted today.)

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

um, not true. Its used a couple places.

 

So its only 1 of 5 instances, but certainly not the only one.

what? of course it's true. since when is "instantly" and "immediately" the same word? they are synonyms, sure, but not the same word. ^_^

the RR states:

"• If a device that detonates when overlapped is placed under more than one ship’s base, it detonates instantly and the player placing the device chooses which ship it affects"

Edited by meffo
RR quote again. ;)

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1 hour ago, meffo said:

so, since one word is used to define the other, they are the same word? ^_^

Welcome to the English language. Its not the best in the world, yet it seems to be more of a default for some reason. 

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2 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Welcome to the English language. Its not the best in the world, yet it seems to be more of a default for some reason. 

while, thank you. not that i need a welcome, i've been using english quite well for a very long time. your statement that instantly and immediately are the same words is incorrect. there are normally a number of words used to define other words. that does not mean they are the same word. as i've already stated, instantly and immediately are synonyms, but they do have different entries in the dictionary.

also, i was well aware that immediately is used in several places in the rules reference well before you stated it. if your argument is that they are the same word because they can be used to define each other, i'm sorry to let you know you're technically incorrect (the worst kind of incorrect), while i am technically correct (the best kind of correct). please, feel free to look it up in what ever dictionary you prefer.

if you need an explanation of what constitutes a word and how to tell different words apart, i recommend just googling it.

your statement that my statement about the word instantly, "in fact, it's the only instance of the term being used in the rules reference", is not true is incorrect  - and it will continue to be incorrect until FFGs technical writers decide to use instantly more in the rules reference. please feel free to perform a search in the rules reference yourself. there is only one instance of the word instantly in there.

it's also worth noting that i quite adore english. it's definitely one of the best languages in the word as far as i know.


lingllama-semantics.png

Edited by meffo
punctuation

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