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Hyperspace Ninja

Salvo defence token speculation thread.

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Because this one of the funnest things to do here with Armada's long development cycles. Time to do some speculation and theorycrafting on things we don't have yet.  Lets first approch the wording in the reveal with caution. More or less it attempts to communicate a token which is a offensive rebuttal to a attack. Lets see if we can ascertain the design of this token and glimpse its possible strenghts and weaknesses.


Possiblity 1: Automatic damage resolve to attacker.

    This is first version to come to mind if you read the reveal as is. This reason alone should make me discard this version but you never know. If this version is true then Agate(officer) ability is reading your oppenents dice when it resolves(Seems odd and weird).

Weaknesses: ship based plink damage, fighters

    Lack of varing and engaging weaknesses is another reason to discount this version. The way this version is leveraged is its High risk, high reward swinging. This take is most streamlined but more unfun, less engaging. It's ability to punch way out of wieght maybe too much for the game.


Possiblity 2: Attack generation

    There is alot making me lean towards this version since the game has precedence with counter. This would make it an outside activation attack. Meaning no CF token usage. With the limitations possibly gleamed from Agate (officer) taken to the extreme this leads to an limited to unmodifyed attack roll. leaning towards the defending arc generating the dice.

Weaknesses: Positional play, Natural dice reliablity, fighters

    I see themematic allure in this approch in how it communicates ship gunners discarding firing solutions for ripid fire.

 

The Future of Salvo 

   Salvo seems to be an interesting way to increase the intensity of the game heading into the Clone Wars era. An out of activation attack(s) tied to defence token could help bring the hectic captial ship engagements seen onscreen. I expect both faction to have decent proliferation of this new token. The Republic might be in the best position to build faction identity off regaining some power during a salvo. Would be a good way to express the elite trained and drilled clone crewmen.

Salvo.jpg

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It basically stops Demo  or something from last/firsting you with zero risk to itself. If Demo (easy example) moves and attacks something with a salvo token, said target most likely gets to fire back at least once, maybe more depending when it dies. 

Example) Now Demo can’t hop into the front arc of a Lib at the end of one turn, attack once. Then double arc that Lib the next turn and fly away unmolested with a flaming or dead Lib behind it. Now if that Lib had a Salvo token and it works like @Grathew said, then that Lib gets to shoot it’s front arc into Demo once at the end of the turn and probably once again off the first attack the next turn. Demo then possibly dies before it even gets to finish it’s double arc. 

I agree with @Grathew as to how it’ll probably work but we’ll see.

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I do not think salvo will be all the dice in arc targeted.

Salvo is a term generally used to describe timed firing at a lower volume for a sustained duration.

For example, if you have 5 howitzers that take 5 minutes to reload, salvo firing them would be firing 1 every minute rather than all 5 every 5 minutes.

Salvo should be a weaker attack to represent this effect.

As to how that is accomplished...half dice rounded down? 1 die per ship size (small gets 1, large gets 3)? Weakest arc dice? Theres a lot of options, but we'll have to wait and see.

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returning your assailant’s fire shot for shot”

I think the salvo mechanic will limit you to the amount of dice in the attack pool, so an ISD attacked by 3 dice in the front arc can only use 3 of its front arc dice.

this would bring interesting iterations and decision making with making big attacks and whether or not to add dice to attack pool (eg. cf dial) because it could make a harder salvo back

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Posted (edited)

@Jukey I think you have Salvo and Barrage switched. Salvo as far as I know references as many guns firing at once as close together time wise. Where as a Barrage is a continued assault, over a span of time to suppress the enemy. 

@Visovics it could also equate to color for color. If the black dice from demo hit a Kuat in the nose the Kuat fires its nose back because you hit me with black. Otherwise could small ships fire more dice under salvo than normal? I think its more symbolic as you shot me with turbolasers, ion cannons and missiles so I'm slinging all of that back at you. 

 

Also I'd like to append my first post with a salvo attack couldn't trigger a salvo attack. I'm thinking dice modification (H9s, Leading shots, Vader, etc) will be allowed as every other defense token has consistent effects

Edited by Grathew

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Posted (edited)

If Slavo is like Counter but for ships, I hope it isn't too widespread and too powerful. There is a hint that you cant do crit effects normally and maybe spending accuracies is also limited.  The tactics generated in this game by who activates what ship when are a major part of the appeal. If most ships can fire back from the dead then Rieekan also takes a downgrade with many ships now able to get some of his benefit. 

I hope when you use a Salvo defence token you can fire back but this counts as one of your ship's 2 allowed attacks. This stops a big ship shooting twice out the killer arc with GTs and then as each smaller enemy ship tries to shoot back the large ship gets 2 more nasty shots as it spends the Salvo token twice (or more potentially with Hand of Justice nearby or Waylex).

We may find ships refusing to fire with 3 red dice at long range so they can move and rely on the Slavo to fire back now at closer range so the blue dice can join in. Now Salvo becomes a bit like overwatch.

Edited by Mad Cat

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At least I think I know why the ships releasing with it seem to have too many tokens for the ship itself to use.

Commander Palpatine!

(And this would seem to be true of any new defense token that comes along - Ol' Sparky doesn't seem to have a limit to what defense tokens he gets, just...'one of each'...so any time a new one comes out, you'll need an extra to potentially put on his card)

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3 hours ago, Mad Cat said:

If Slavo is like Counter but for ships, I hope it isn't too widespread and too powerful. There is a hint that you cant do crit effects normally and maybe spending accuracies is also limited.  The tactics generated in this game by who activates what ship when are a major part of the appeal. If most ships can fire back from the dead then Rieekan also takes a downgrade with many ships now able to get some of his benefit.

The generation of accuracy results will be even more important. A buff to Quad Turbolaser Cannons! ;)

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My guess is the defender gets to fire back from its defending arc with whatever dice they can based on range with no modifiers.  The one thing I want to know however is if the Defending Arc does not have Arc on the Fireing ship is it unable to Salvo.  My hope would be that it would not.  This would make flying and lining up arcs from different angles more advantageous and would benefit skillful flying.

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I think the most significant difference between salvo and other defence tokens is that the salvo mechanic will be separate to the token, like proximity mine tokens, and the card that simply allows you to deploy them. If it’s a mechanic, it has to serve more purposes than simply defensive

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1 hour ago, flatpackhamster said:

Could Salvo mean that you can get other ships to join you in shooting at a target?  You spend your salvo token on your activated ship and on a second ship and they shoot together at one target?

 Spending a salvo defense token allows a ship to perform a salvo attack after the Resolve Damage step of an attack, returning your assailant’s fire shot for shot. Even if your ship is destroyed before performing a salvo attack, as long as the token had been spent it still performs the attack before being removed. 

That is taken directly from their announcement of the new ships.  It's clearly the ability to return fire when getting attacked.

14 hours ago, ISD Avenger said:

So this is sort of like the Counter keyword fighters have?

Im struggling to see what the point of this is? Other than to make ships die even quicker. It’s early. I haven’t had my breakfast yet. What am I missing here?

The point is to add additional tactical decisions.

Have a ship with 1 red dice and you are at long range.  No reason not to fire...unless the enemy ship can salvo and return fire with more power.  Of if you have multiple ships that can attack a target, which order do you want to activate them in order to draw out the salvo at the right time, or hopefully deactivate the salvo before they can use it.  Salvo becomes a deterrent if you can add it to a powerful ship.  I don't want them to attack this ship as it's powerful and has my commander, so if I put salvo on it, now they have to risk retaliation if they target it.  Just like counter, it changes the decisions that need to be made.

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My crystal ball says:

Salvo

After a ship performs an attack against you, you may peform an attack on that ship, even if you are destroyed. Your attacking hull zone must be the same as your defending hull zone.

Also a generic officer:

Counterfire Coordinator

At the start of the first round, you may replace 1 of your [Brace token] with an [Salvo token]

Thank me later ;)

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For me I want salvo to be strong and punishing. Making first last still viable, but you need to possition youself in the best possible arc. So Demo can't just careen into your front of an ISD and unload willy nilly it approach needs to be more careful and calculated in its movements. 

I think salvo should be all dice in the defending arc. However you can't spend accuracies or resolve critical effects, and is not effected by upgrade cards, so no leading shots Xi7 or anything like that will apply to this attack.

In addition if that is not enough to keep using all your dice in check have a rule that is like this "if you have performed a salvo attack this round, only one of your attacks this activation can target a ship." This keeps salvo ships from going nuts.

Have a deffinsive retofit that adds a salvo token to the mix, maybe a unique officer as well. I would like salvo to become a fairly prominent thing in the game to end these mega bids for first player.

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13 hours ago, Bertie Wooster said:

I predict that Salvo will not be as good as Scatter. 😁

Depending on who gets access it and the rules it could be better.

Suddenly the unarmed Gr75 blasts the Kuat back with the 3 red 2 blue and 3 black, while screaming something about a good day to die. 

Joking asside I think a crit disabled attack probably without dice modification and following line of sight and obstruction rules. Although I could see ignoring the line if sight if the attacker doesn't get defense tokens. 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Grathew said:

Depending on who gets access it and the rules it could be better.

Suddenly the unarmed Gr75 blasts the Kuat back with the 3 red 2 blue and 3 black, while screaming something about a good day to die. 

Joking asside I think a crit disabled attack probably without dice modification and following line of sight and obstruction rules. Although I could see ignoring the line if sight if the attacker doesn't get defense tokens. 

There's no known way to add a Salvo token to a GR-75. A GR-75 can't be a flagship, so can't take Krysta Agate as a commander.

As for the rest--we'll see. It depends on what the rules say; we agree on that.

Edited by Bertie Wooster

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17 hours ago, xero989 said:

For me I want salvo to be strong and punishing. Making first last still viable, but you need to possition youself in the best possible arc. So Demo can't just careen into your front of an ISD and unload willy nilly it approach needs to be more careful and calculated in its movements. 

I think salvo should be all dice in the defending arc. However you can't spend accuracies or resolve critical effects, and is not effected by upgrade cards, so no leading shots Xi7 or anything like that will apply to this attack.

In addition if that is not enough to keep using all your dice in check have a rule that is like this "if you have performed a salvo attack this round, only one of your attacks this activation can target a ship." This keeps salvo ships from going nuts.

Have a deffinsive retofit that adds a salvo token to the mix, maybe a unique officer as well. I would like salvo to become a fairly prominent thing in the game to end these mega bids for first player.

If that would be the case its another slap in the face of players who like MSU lists. I understood that large ships needed some love before wave 7. But now there are so many shenanigans for the bigger ships and so much 134FP-squadron-carrier-lists that it gets harder and harder to play a group of CR90s or Arquitens and have some viable success.

But I'm afraid you're right.

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18 hours ago, xero989 said:

For me I want salvo to be strong and punishing. Making first last still viable, but you need to possition youself in the best possible arc. So Demo can't just careen into your front of an ISD and unload willy nilly it approach needs to be more careful and calculated in its movements. 

I think salvo should be all dice in the defending arc. However you can't spend accuracies or resolve critical effects, and is not effected by upgrade cards, so no leading shots Xi7 or anything like that will apply to this attack.

In addition if that is not enough to keep using all your dice in check have a rule that is like this "if you have performed a salvo attack this round, only one of your attacks this activation can target a ship." This keeps salvo ships from going nuts.

Have a deffinsive retofit that adds a salvo token to the mix, maybe a unique officer as well. I would like salvo to become a fairly prominent thing in the game to end these mega bids for first player.

I'm with you right up until salvo preventing your usual attacks.  You might be spot on, in fact I wouldn't be surprised.  I just feel that sucks a lot of the power away from that defensive ability and could really make it almost useless in many cases.  Enemy in your rear arc, they fire, you could salvo with 2 or 3 dice (no upgrades, no crits, no accuracy), but then you sacrifice one of your attacks.

I find it kind of interesting that one thing a lot of people complain about with the system is that the chasing ship really struggles to attack what it's chasing, while the chased ship has it easier.  Salvo actually helps the chased ship even more now making it even harder to chase ships.  What is supposed to be a tactically advantageous position is getting worse.  Not a big deal due to how few ships have access to salvo, just something that occurred to me.

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53 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

I find it kind of interesting that one thing a lot of people complain about with the system is that the chasing ship really struggles to attack what it's chasing, while the chased ship has it easier.  Salvo actually helps the chased ship even more now making it even harder to chase ships.  What is supposed to be a tactically advantageous position is getting worse.  Not a big deal due to how few ships have access to salvo, just something that occurred to me.

I actually think it does the opposite if salvo becomes prominent and most ships can gain access to it if you are chasing a ship and it attacks from its rear you can salvo out what is likely your strongest arc and they get a week rear attack. The current issue with chasing is they move away before you get a good attack off now that is not possible with salvo.

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Something does need to be done to address chasing a fleeing opponent. Maybe a new rule/crit when targeting the rear hull zone, in lieu of a standard crit, you may reduce your opponents speed by one to a minimum of one. 

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