Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
emeraldbeacon

Pivot Wing rotate commitment?

Recommended Posts

There have been plenty of times while playing, where either I or an opponent has stated an intent to do something, then paused, and changed their mind, all well within the range of their opportunity to do something.  Sometimes, this is reasonable, like saying, "I'll focus.  Actually, no, I'll evade."  Other times, it's a lot less fair, like taking back a target lock action to barrel roll instead... or executing your maneuver, then asking if you can roll it back to use an R2 Astromech charge beforehand.

This situation can come up with U-Wings.  At what point does a U-Wing pilot commit to the rotation granted by Pivot Wing?  This came up in a local tournament, and while it was handled pretty quickly and agreeable to both players, it does beg the question of, precisely when has a player passed the point of no return?  When does the player have to commit to a SPECIFIC rotation?  Is there a point where they can check different rotations to see which ones are most likely to gain a firing arc on an enemy (without measuring, obviously)?

  1. It seems unlikely that it would take place in any of these steps:
    1. When you close your pivot wing
    2. When your dial is revealed
    3. Before or While you execute the 0-stop
  2. But does it happen...
    1. After you execute the 0-stop, when you declare the intent to rotate? (I'd argue that, as long as you haven't gone further than declaring, you can still take it back)
    2. When you put a marker down to measure the rotation?  (To me, this is reasonable intent to rotate, just like putting a template in front of a ship is intent to boost)
    3. Once you pick up your ship?  (This is where I feel one has to decide on the direction of rotation: 90 or 180)
    4. Once you put your ship on the table?  (this seems to be final... no "I think I'd rather make a quarter turn instead of a half turn")

latest?cb=20180510035909

Edited by emeraldbeacon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you have to declare which direction you want to rotate to after you execute a 0-stop maneuver, when you declare you want to rotate. you need to clarify before putting any markers or templates on the table, just like boosting or barrel rolling (yes, i'm looking at you microthrusters starvipers!). you need to specify which direction you want to go in before you attempt to rotate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, current consensus (so far) seems to be, after the maneuver is complete, the player declares whether or not to rotate, and which way, at which point it's "locked in," and can't be retracted to any degree.  A player cannot decide to not rotate after all, nor can they elect to switch direction or amount of rotation after the initial declaration... even if they haven't touched the board since their declaration.  That admittedly seems a little harsh to me, but neither does it seem completely unreasonable.

Personally, I would probably draw the line at starting the act of rotating, by placing the marker on the table, same as boosting or barrel rolling.  Declaring the rotation (including direction) is stating intent; placing the marker is confirmation of that intent, and the point-of-no-return for "takebacks."

I should also point out that I'm talking about extremely competitive, high-level tournament play here, where every move is calculated and scrutinized... not casual play, in which case, c'mon, fly casual, folks. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorta between 2.1 and 2.2 - After the stall, after you declare intent, before the marker.  I feel like the marker doesn't have to hit the table, but has to get *near* the table.

At least, that's the point when I wouldn't take it back myself.

For instance, I'll do take-backs on "Ok, I'll focus, no, I'll evade."  But that one's easy, it's just the kind of token.

For "I'll lock, no, I'll focus," I feel like the point-of-no-return isn't placing the ruler down to measure, but a little bit before that.  When you've grabbed the ruler and are moving it towards the board, that's committed.  If I just say it before grabbing the ruler, that's OK to me.

Likewise for a Barrel Roll or Boost.  When I've got the template in my hand, and my hand is near the ship, even if I haven't touched it to the ship, I'm sealed into it.  To me, this is the most illustrative case.  If I just get my template near my ship, I kind of have a better visual sense of how the movement action would go, and at that point, it feels inappropriate to pull it back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As soon as you move the ship then you're locked in. If the ship hasn't been moved then no information advantage has been gained. The same is true if all you've done is placed a marker down but not actually moved the ship yet, you can still cancel the pivot at that point.

As soon as you put the ship down in a new position that's it, that was your choice, you don't get to pivot the ship multiple times just see where your best firing lines are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's not that simple. you can fail to rotate, if you don't fit because of the guides on the base. in my after you execute a 0 stop maneuver and your pivot wings are closed, you have an opportunity to rotate.

before templates are picked up or you move on to another ships activation (or the perform action step), if you want to rotate, you need to declare which way you want to face. this is where you can think and decide. if you say you'd like to turn one way but don't go on to mark your ship out, you're fine declaring that you want to turn another way as well, since you're still at the same timing, where you have to decide. but as soon as you've started marking your ship out to turn in, you can't try rotating another way. if you fit, you've turned that way. if your guides make you unable to fit, you can't turn your ship at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, meffo said:

it's not that simple. you can fail to rotate, if you don't fit because of the guides on the base. in my after you execute a 0 stop maneuver and your pivot wings are closed, you have an opportunity to rotate.

before templates are picked up or you move on to another ships activation (or the perform action step), if you want to rotate, you need to declare which way you want to face. this is where you can think and decide. if you say you'd like to turn one way but don't go on to mark your ship out, you're fine declaring that you want to turn another way as well, since you're still at the same timing, where you have to decide. but as soon as you've started marking your ship out to turn in, you can't try rotating another way. if you fit, you've turned that way. if your guides make you unable to fit, you can't turn your ship at all.

This is my stance as well. If for no other reason than it keeps consistency with boosting and barrel rolling (and decloaking). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As soon as the game state changes, ruler on the table, new  information gained about the board state

Some people will think physically, so if someone slaps a TL down without measuring ranging  and then realised the need something else I have no issue with them taking that back. If the measured for the TL then tough luck it stays 

 

As for this specific example, i wouldn't even register what the opponent 'Declared' once they pick it up and put the ship back down in a position that's it. 

If they say left and go 90 degrees right, tough, its now 90 degrees right. if they pick it it up and twist it round and round, left, right, left, right, left, right, I don't care until it's back on the table in a position, at that point you're done. it's such an edge case though.

 

Edited by Sk3tch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, meffo said:

it's not that simple. you can fail to rotate, if you don't fit because of the guides on the base. in my after you execute a 0 stop maneuver and your pivot wings are closed, you have an opportunity to rotate.

before templates are picked up or you move on to another ships activation (or the perform action step), if you want to rotate, you need to declare which way you want to face. this is where you can think and decide. if you say you'd like to turn one way but don't go on to mark your ship out, you're fine declaring that you want to turn another way as well, since you're still at the same timing, where you have to decide. but as soon as you've started marking your ship out to turn in, you can't try rotating another way. if you fit, you've turned that way. if your guides make you unable to fit, you can't turn your ship at all.

I don't understand how that's different from what I said. If you failed to rotate then that means you weren't able to put your ship down in the new position correctly, so it doesn't apply to what I said at all.  

13 hours ago, Tvboy said:

As soon as you put the ship down in a new position that's it, that was your choice, you don't get to pivot the ship multiple times just see where your best firing lines are.

Honestly it doesn't matter what the player says verbally about where they are going to rotate it, all that matters is when they physically rotate it and place it down. If you say you're going to pivot left but then you put the ship down on a right pivot instead, then you chose right. Players shouldn't be rewarded with free information for creating a confusing board state. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I don't understand how that's different from what I said. If you failed to rotate then that means you weren't able to put your ship down in the new position correctly, so it doesn't apply to what I said at all.  

Honestly it doesn't matter what the player says verbally about where they are going to rotate it, all that matters is when they physically rotate it and place it down. If you say you're going to pivot left but then you put the ship down on a right pivot instead, then you chose right. Players shouldn't be rewarded with free information for creating a confusing board state. 

well, it's slightly different because you mention that even if you put a marker or template down, you can still decide not to rotate, which can be viewed as gaining free information.

if you just want to play the game without declaring what you're doing to you opponent, that's fine, but it's not a good habit and can lead to a bad experience, as well as confusion. being on the same page and making sure both players understand what's happening is very important. i'm not saying you have to declare left or right or 180, but i would consider it better conduct indicating with you hands and/or voice which way you want your ship to face before placing any templates or markers on the table.

if i was judging and a player kept rotating their ships with no declaration of using the ability or in which way they intended to use it, i would encourage them to please declare what they're doing to the game state before doing it, especially if i noticed the other player getting confused or annoyed. if the player refused, i would hand out a warning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, meffo said:

well, it's slightly different because you mention that even if you put a marker or template down, you can still decide not to rotate, which can be viewed as gaining free information.

if you just want to play the game without declaring what you're doing to you opponent, that's fine, but it's not a good habit and can lead to a bad experience, as well as confusion. being on the same page and making sure both players understand what's happening is very important. i'm not saying you have to declare left or right or 180, but i would consider it better conduct indicating with you hands and/or voice which way you want your ship to face before placing any templates or markers on the table.

if i was judging and a player kept rotating their ships with no declaration of using the ability or in which way they intended to use it, i would encourage them to please declare what they're doing to the game state before doing it, especially if i noticed the other player getting confused or annoyed. if the player refused, i would hand out a warning.

What information would you get from putting a position marker on the ship? Also since when is it restricted on when a position marker can be placed on a ship? We use position markers on ships for a variety of reasons, movement, measuring range when we need to put the ruler on the table between the bases, placing bombs, viewing concealed objects underneath large bases, and even during an activation when I need to eyeball an arc and a ship is in my way. Putting a position marker on a ship shouldn't be a commitment to doing anything, it doesn't give any meaningful information because it's not used for anything else in the game besides marking set aside ships. Players should definitely not be using things like maneuver templates or range rulers to mark their ships before they pick them up. 

Edit: if a player is just doing random things to chits and bases without actually advancing the game, like in your example, that's just slow play. 

Edited by Tvboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

What information would you get from putting a position marker on the ship? Also since when is it restricted on when a position marker can be placed on a ship? We use position markers on ships for a variety of reasons, movement, measuring range when we need to put the ruler on the table between the bases, placing bombs, viewing concealed objects underneath large bases, and even during an activation when I need to eyeball an arc and a ship is in my way. Putting a position marker on a ship shouldn't be a commitment to doing anything, it doesn't give any meaningful information because it's not used for anything else in the game besides marking set aside ships. Players should definitely not be using things like maneuver templates or range rulers to mark their ships before they pick them up. 

Edit: if a player is just doing random things to chits and bases without actually advancing the game, like in your example, that's just slow play. 

depends on the position marker. also, you should never use a position marker without agreeing with your opponent that you're doing it, which is when you declare what you're doing. my point is simply: don't do stuff in the game without conveying information about what you're doing and why. sure, you can choose to play that way, but it's an awful habit. this is a two player game - and x-wing players resolving awkward game states with precision and collaboration together would definitely make us better surgeons than your average joe. it's simply an integral and fun part of the game. i'm not saying you have to be vocal about flipping recurring charges back up during the end phase, but putting a position marker on the table and lifting up a ship should never be done without making sure your opponent is in agreement about what's happening. hence: you should declare which way you are turning before starting to turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/28/2019 at 9:12 AM, Tvboy said:

What information would you get from putting a position marker on the ship? Also since when is it restricted on when a position marker can be placed on a ship? We use position markers on ships for a variety of reasons, movement, measuring range when we need to put the ruler on the table between the bases, placing bombs, viewing concealed objects underneath large bases, and even during an activation when I need to eyeball an arc and a ship is in my way. Putting a position marker on a ship shouldn't be a commitment to doing anything, it doesn't give any meaningful information because it's not used for anything else in the game besides marking set aside ships. Players should definitely not be using things like maneuver templates or range rulers to mark their ships before they pick them up. 

Your other examples are fine, but as a player or judge I would call you on that last one in a hearbeat.

Marking a ship creates an inherent risk to the game state; no matter how careful you are, there is always the possibility that one player may slip and ruin the positions of one or more ships. It should only be done when absolutely necessary, when the ship is making it physically impossible to carry out the current task. Looking at an asteroid under a ship is impossible without removing the ship; performing a maneuver across a large base is also often impossible without removing the offending ship. But it is most certainly possible to eyeball an arc without removing an in-between ship, and removing that ship to make it easier is getting awfully close to pre-measuring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I would say between 2.1 and 2.2. If you have placed a marker down, you have declared your intent to rotate, so you must rotate at this point. I'd say once you have placed the ship back down in one of the potential directions you have declared which direction you will face, and you shouldn't be able to take it back.

This is all conjecture by me. The only hard and fast actually ruling I could hold someone to is that it must be after they execute the maneuver, so something like K2SO pilot would trigger before the rotate.

Edited by 5050Saint
left off a "n't"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...