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Thought Experiment - X-Wing 3.0

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20 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

Oh, I disagree, rotate turret is a good action that helps me keep ships in  Y-wings ion turret arc.

Most of the time the arc is forward or sideways but in trying to avoid their arcs I often have to switch it to the other side or my rear arc.

If turreted ships had full 360 arcs it would be too easy, ir they'd be over priced.

I'd agree with this... and yet...

10 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Un-nerf turrets. Rotate actions are never frakking worth it.

and the ships with free rotates barely need it.

It really is sad that the Jumpmaster--a ship which often can't afford to use it--has the linked Focus > Rotate and Lock > Rotate.

Linked red rotate actions would be soooooo good on a lot of ships.

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1. I would separate pilots from ships. The pilot skill, ability, talents, etc. would be based on the pilot card.  Ship cards would have modifications, titles, ordnance, etc. plus any ship abilities.  

2. Multiple dice types that also match the strength and number of guns on the particular ship.  For example, an X-Wing or TIE Interceptor might get 4 strong dice, while the A-Wing or TIE Fighter might get six weaker dice (to represent rapid fire). For defense, small ships would get better dice than bigger ships. A YT-1300 may be more evasive than a YV-666, but they'd both be worse than a B-Wing.  I also like the idea of your pilot skill allowing you to"upgrade" some of your dice, like in FFG's Star Wars RPG system.

 

3.  I would include banks and hard turns for all speeds, or use a maneuver tool similar to Legion or Armada.

4.  I'd probably let ships with multiple turrets/gun emplacements make multiple attacks.

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22 minutes ago, Nickel said:

4.  I'd probably let ships with multiple turrets/gun emplacements make multiple attacks.

This would make cannons and turrets much more expensive. I think it works well atm with turret gunners and tail gunners.

 

Perhaps with cannons we could get a "Linked Cannons" modification that let you shoot cannons and Normal fire, would have to be expensive though, perhaps 7-10 points

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Randomized expansion packs!  Every pack comes with one random ship, one random pilot card for that ship, ten random upgrades which may or may not apply to that ship, and tokens.  Lots of tokens.

43 minutes ago, Nickel said:

1. I would separate pilots from ships. The pilot skill, ability, talents, etc. would be based on the pilot card.  Ship cards would have modifications, titles, ordnance, etc. plus any ship abilities.  

2. Multiple dice types that also match the strength and number of guns on the particular ship.  For example, an X-Wing or TIE Interceptor might get 4 strong dice, while the A-Wing or TIE Fighter might get six weaker dice (to represent rapid fire). For defense, small ships would get better dice than bigger ships. A YT-1300 may be more evasive than a YV-666, but they'd both be worse than a B-Wing.  I also like the idea of your pilot skill allowing you to"upgrade" some of your dice, like in FFG's Star Wars RPG system.

 

3.  I would include banks and hard turns for all speeds, or use a maneuver tool similar to Legion or Armada.

4.  I'd probably let ships with multiple turrets/gun emplacements make multiple attacks.

More dice, more maneuvers, and many more cards?  Just how big will the Starter Set be?  

Personally, I really don't think pilots and ships should be separated.  They'll have to restrict who can fly what anyway, to prevent broken combos, and in practice, most pilots will end up on only one ship once people figure out which legal ships fit their abilities best.

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There are a few things I wish they'd done that they can't or won't do now:

Different dice.  Specifically, a die type that is accurate but low damage (using double hit symbols which take two evades to cancel, but deal one damage) and low accuracy by high damage (double crits which cost 1 to cancel but deal two damage), plus surges on the focus and blank faces that depending on the weapon being used could apply effects, or be spent for effects, etc.

Eliminate defence dice entirely, move towards a Runewars-style threshold/hit points system, where you only take damage if you take a certain threshold number of hits in a single attack (or maybe in a single round, to avoid things like TIE swarms being unable to kill high-agility aces).

Make the Limited dots apply not just to upgrade/pilot names, but also to ship chassis, and move them into the PDF/app so they're part of the points listing, not the cards, which gives another axis of flexibility for balancing.

 

Beyond those things I'm pretty happy with the general framework of 2e.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Eliminate defence dice entirely, move towards a Runewars-style threshold/hit points system, where you only take damage if you take a certain threshold number of hits in a single attack (or maybe in a single round, to avoid things like TIE swarms being unable to kill high-agility aces).

This is one I see a lot that I actually disagree with.  The randomness of defense dice can be frustrating, but it also makes complete sense for this sort of battle.  Anyone who's played the PC games knows that pilot skill plays a large part in successfully attacking and evading, but random chances in juking around also play their part.

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1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

More dice, more maneuvers, and many more cards?  Just how big will the Starter Set be?  

Personally, I really don't think pilots and ships should be separated.  They'll have to restrict who can fly what anyway, to prevent broken combos, and in practice, most pilots will end up on only one ship once people figure out which legal ships fit their abilities best.

That would be two additional cardboard templates, and a few more dice.  I actually think it would reduce the number of cards, overall.  You'd have a ship card, a couple generic pilots per faction, plus any named pilots that would also be faction-restricted.

Rebel Han Solo would be different than his Imperial, Scum, or Resistance versions.  You could tailor those abilities so that they wouldn't be too powerful in that particular faction. Plus, with variable points, you can keep it under control by making it more expensive.

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2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Randomized expansion packs!  Every pack comes with one random ship, one random pilot card for that ship, ten random upgrades which may or may not apply to that ship, and tokens.  Lots of tokens.

More dice, more maneuvers, and many more cards?  Just how big will the Starter Set be?  

Personally, I really don't think pilots and ships should be separated.  They'll have to restrict who can fly what anyway, to prevent broken combos, and in practice, most pilots will end up on only one ship once people figure out which legal ships fit their abilities best.

Randomized expansion packs? Are you kidding? So we will need to buy many copies of the same ship to get the pilot/upgrade we want?

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1 hour ago, Wedge Nantillais said:

Rotation during the System Phase, no longer as an action.

Now this I can get onboard for, slightly increase the cost of anything with turret, so all turrets can be moved in the system phase.

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4 hours ago, Wedge Nantillais said:

Rotation during the System Phase, no longer as an action.

This wouldn't be too bad, though I'd also do away with bowtie arcs.

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1 hour ago, StriderZessei said:

I would make S&V a mercenary faction that could either be flown as its own or with another faction, possibly with limitations preventing certain combos. 

I used to like this idea but alot of people suggested it makes balancing scum ships/pilots more difficult (thus probably overpriced when only being able to use scum only ships)

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On 8/27/2019 at 6:40 AM, Jo Jo said:

 

Yep. I feel like they did a pretty decent job with 2.0, but the one big swing and miss for me was not incorporating at least 1 more set of dice. Accuracy dice or ordnance dice, something like that.

 

I would like an atmospheric mode, but if you made it different enough it would probably have to be an entirely different game. Altitude, different maneuvers, etc.

I was going to say something along these lines. I have recently started playing Armada, and I like the 3 different attack die. Having only red and green die is very limiting. The A Wing for example could have very accurate fire, just not that powerful, this could be represented by different coloured die pools. 

I guess I find the current die system very simplistic and over reliant on RNG. Fenn is my favourite ship/pilot. Hard to mod 4 blanks....

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Posted (edited)

There might be problems with this, but it would be interesting to separate accuracy from firepower. 

The easy solution would be something like having an attack value for each. You roll first to see if the attack hits (with the opponent rolling evade dice), and then roll again to see the damage (with no evade dice). It would open up some interesting design space letting some ships be super accurate, but very weak in how much damage they do.

For example maybe a tie interceptor has 4 dies on rolling for accuracy, but only 1-2 to check damage. 

Torpedoes could implement it in the opposite way - hardish to hit with, but really dangerous if they do hit. Maybe 1 or 2 dice on rolling for accuracy, but then 3-4 automatic damage on a hit. 

Edited by JaxonEvans

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17 minutes ago, JaxonEvans said:

There might be problems with this, but it would be interesting to separate accuracy from firepower. 

The easy solution would be something like having an attack value for each. You roll first to see if the attack hits (with the opponent rolling evade dice), and then roll again to see the damage (with no evade dice). It would open up some interesting design space letting some ships be super accurate, but very weak in how much damage they do.

For example maybe a tie interceptor has 4 dies on rolling for accuracy, but only 1-2 to check damage. 

Torpedoes could implement it in the opposite way - hardish to hit with, but really dangerous if they do hit. Maybe 1 or 2 dice on rolling for accuracy, but then 3-4 automatic damage on a hit. 

Oh, I see where this is going.

8bB8Q.png

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

Breaking Scum into sub-factions.

Mercs & Pirates or Hutt Cartel & Black Sun?  As in, how would you do it?  Cuz I agree, and I could see it both ways.

Given that Attack and Evade are hard coded as Red and Green on cards, new dice could still be a thing.  Although, they are beginning to run out of colors. :blink:

And separating pilots and chassis are a terrible idea IMHO, both from a balancing and complexity standpoint.  Although, moving pilots around to different chassis as a single card is exactly the point of pilot card packs, if you ask me.

Overall, a lot of this, while it sounds cool, should probably be avoided from a KISS standpoint.  Although, removing defense dice, despite the simplicity, wrecks the spirit of game badly, methinks.  I prefer the Risk aspect over the THAC0 aspect.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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17 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Mercs & Pirates or Hutt Cartel & Black Sun?  As in, how would you do it?  Cuz I agree, and I could see it both ways.

Why not all 4 and add Bounty Hunters? Keep them under the S&V umbrella but have talents and other upgrades that lend themselves those sub-factions.

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16 hours ago, Scum4Life said:

Oh, I disagree, rotate turret is a good action that helps me keep ships in  Y-wings ion turret arc.

Most of the time the arc is forward or sideways but in trying to avoid their arcs I often have to switch it to the other side or my rear arc.

If turreted ships had full 360 arcs it would be too easy, ir they'd be over priced.

Noooooot what I said should happen, for what it's worth.

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7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Oh, I see where this is going.

8bB8Q.png

No need of that.

It would be as simple as adding another symbol to the dice. For example ◎.
We have red and green dice as they are. But then add also orange "accuracy" dice with these sides:
blank / eye / eye / ◎ / ◎ / ◎ / ◎◎ / ◎◎ 

During the Neutralize Results step, ◎ symbols are cancelled first, before hit or crits.
During the Deal Damage setp, ◎ symbols deal no damage.

So for example, A-wings will roll their 2 red dice, plus a number of orange dice. Let's say 1 orange die.
They get 2 hits in the red dice, and ◎◎ in the orange die.
The defender rolls 2 evade results.
The 2 ◎ results are cancelled by the evade results, and the 2 remaining hit results deal damage.

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1 hour ago, SavouryRain said:

The only thing I wish they had done differently is not balance the game around 3 red dice

If I may say from 3 years of experience and a hunch: it seems like its not the designers that do that, but the game and pure maths itself. 2 regular dice doesn't really do it in a reasonable way in this game anymore, in either 1.0 and 2.0. Either they needed to lower the number of ships with 3 agility or reduce hull also 

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