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JBFancourt

Darth Vader Crew Break Down

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Posted (edited)

I just went 5-0 at my Hyperspace Trial! Then lost my first game in the cut 🙄 But a great day! 😁

I was flying Vader Crew. The judge of the event ruled that if I chose to use Vader, I could be forced to damage one of my own ships (excluding Vader’s carrier). 

Thoughts on this??? I disagreed, but didn’t say so. Just went with it. Could we unpack this, please? Thanks!

latest?cb=20180731193311

 

Q: Does Sense require you to spend 1 Force before measuring range to other ships?


A: No. You can measure range to see which ships are at range 0–1 and which ships are at range 0–3 before deciding whether or not to spend the Force to affect a ship at range 0–3.

Does this precedent effect anyone’s thoughts???

Edited by JBFancourt
New RR

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My list (if interested):

Fully Armed & Operational 

(53) Soontir Fel [TIE Interceptor]
(2) Predator
Points: 55

(42) "Duchess" [TIE/sk Striker]
(2) Predator
Points: 44

(76) Rear Admiral Chiraneau [VT-49 Decimator]
(14) Darth Vader
(4) Dauntless
Points: 94

Total points: 193

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The consensus on this and similar phrasings (i.e. at time you may choose one ship in your arc at range blah) is that you measure to everything, then you have the option of choosing one or none of them.  Becuase you can't choose between the ships in your arc, until you know what's in your arc and what isn't.

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yes, this depends on how a judge or TO will rule something described as "declaration of intent". basically, if you want to use vader, you have declared you intent of using vader by checking the range - and if possible, you must choose a ship, no matter if that ship is yours or your opponents.

that being said, it is not how the ability works as written. it clearly states that you may choose a ship in your firing arc at range 0-2. that means you can check for target for the ability and decide whether to use it or not, since the ability clearly uses the word "may".

it is not uncommon for the use of vaders ability to be ruled as working based on the declaration of intent-interpretation, though, no matter what i or anyone else thinks is wrong or right.

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18 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I was flying Vader Crew. The judge of the event ruled that if I chose to use Vader, I could be forced to damage one of my own ships (excluding Vader’s carrier). 

Well yeah. That's kinda the point and risk of using Vader. If FFG didn't intend or want to put your own ships at risk, they would have worded him to say "choose 1 enemy ship". 

Pretty much every ability in the game is Declared before anything on that ability is even read or put in the ability queue. You declare you are using Vader. Vader's ability is then put in the ability queue. Then you resolve Vader's ability if at all possible. The "may" in his wording is your option to declare using him or not. Not get half way though is ability, then decide to not use him. Once hes in the ability queue, he gets resolved, or the ability fails to resolve if there are no ships or active force tokens.

At least, this is how i view it (and apparently how the TO views it as well).
 

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Capture.jpg
i view it as we should try and follow the rules for card interpretation in the rules reference as best we can. declaration of intent is not a game term. vaders ability clearly uses the term "may" - and according to the rules, that means it's optional to choose a ship or not.

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1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Well yeah. That's kinda the point and risk of using Vader. If FFG didn't intend or want to put your own ships at risk, they would have worded him to say "choose 1 enemy ship". 

Pretty much every ability in the game is Declared before anything on that ability is even read or put in the ability queue. You declare you are using Vader. Vader's ability is then put in the ability queue. Then you resolve Vader's ability if at all possible. The "may" in his wording is your option to declare using him or not. Not get half way though is ability, then decide to not use him. Once hes in the ability queue, he gets resolved, or the ability fails to resolve if there are no ships or active force tokens.

At least, this is how i view it (and apparently how the TO views it as well).
 

They also could have made it clear that you must follow through with the ability by wording it: "At the start of the engagement phase, you may spend 1 [force]. If you do, choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2..."

 

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1 hour ago, Maui. said:

They also could have made it clear that you must follow through with the ability by wording it: "At the start of the engagement phase, you may spend 1 [force]. If you do, choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2..."

 

I agree with this except then the ability should also end with, "If this ability fails recover 1 [force]." 

On the other hand, the wording you have seems so frustratingly obvious that if it was any company other than FFG I would assume that they purposefully didn't write it that way because they didn't want it to work that way. However, given FFG's track record it's possible they just didn't think of writing it that way...

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5 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Well yeah. That's kinda the point and risk of using Vader. If FFG didn't intend or want to put your own ships at risk, they would have worded him to say "choose 1 enemy ship". 

Pretty much every ability in the game is Declared before anything on that ability is even read or put in the ability queue. You declare you are using Vader. Vader's ability is then put in the ability queue. Then you resolve Vader's ability if at all possible. The "may" in his wording is your option to declare using him or not. Not get half way though is ability, then decide to not use him. Once hes in the ability queue, he gets resolved, or the ability fails to resolve if there are no ships or active force tokens.

At least, this is how i view it (and apparently how the TO views it as well).
 

Despite what the card SAYS, I do really like this interpretation for the simple reason that it reminds me of old 1.0 Vader and keeps the theme alive of self inflicted damage. 

I think the absence of “enemy ship” is the strongest argument I’ve heard so far. 

However, I agree with @meffo that as of now going by what the card SAYS, self inflicted damage is not required. 

Thanks! 

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Posted (edited)

The game text is written ambiguously enough that the 2 different interpretations both have some merit to them.  I think that I lean towards the camp of "measure, then choose whether or not to trigger" more than "choose to trigger; then measure, and MUST activate on ANY valid target," but I'd be comfortable with either ruling.

Moreso, tho, I'm in the camp of, "Ask the TO of the event about the interaction, before bringing that squad."

Edited by emeraldbeacon

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Just for completion, this issue isn't unique to Vader (crew). For example, Kanan (pilot) has a similar ability. 

My biggest issue with these abilities being ruled so that you can measure and then not follow through is that you are then able to gather extra information with no risk. With Kanan you can measure if the friendly ship is in your firing arc and then "accidentally" reveal that there is an enemy ship also in your firing arc. Then you can decide that you don't actually want to use Kanan's ability because you'd rather have the force for offense. Using his ability this way allows you to determine if other objects are in your firing arc before it's your turn to engage.

Mechanically, I believe all abilities that require measuring should be forced to trigger if you actually measure for them and there's a legal target. This would be consistent with locking. 

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1 hour ago, MadTownXWing said:

Just for completion, this issue isn't unique to Vader (crew). For example, Kanan (pilot) has a similar ability. 

My biggest issue with these abilities being ruled so that you can measure and then not follow through is that you are then able to gather extra information with no risk. With Kanan you can measure if the friendly ship is in your firing arc and then "accidentally" reveal that there is an enemy ship also in your firing arc. Then you can decide that you don't actually want to use Kanan's ability because you'd rather have the force for offense. Using his ability this way allows you to determine if other objects are in your firing arc before it's your turn to engage.

Mechanically, I believe all abilities that require measuring should be forced to trigger if you actually measure for them and there's a legal target. This would be consistent with locking. 

I could not agree more. I have TO'd many events and this has been a point of contention at time. While I do LOVE the addition of the failed action mechanic, the lack of a clear "pre-measurement" rule has left open SO MANY ways to sneak vital information. 

It seems they replaced the ban on pre-measurement by adding more defined rules on what the word"may" means, but as more cards get added, it leaves a lot open for interpretation. 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, MadTownXWing said:

Mechanically, I believe all abilities that require measuring should be forced to trigger if you actually measure for them and there's a legal target. This would be consistent with locking. 

Maybe. But the rules for attack state: 

  1. Measure Range: The attacking player measures range from the attacker to any number of enemy ships and determines which enemy ships are in which of its arcs.
  • If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay the costs required for the attack, the attacking player either chooses a different weapon or chooses not to attack.

During an attack, you may measure range and then if there’s no valid target you could choose not to attack. You wouldn’t be forced to cluster missile or proton torpedo yourself if there wasn’t a valid enemy target. Under this logic Vader shouldn’t have to force choke a friendly either.  

Edited by Yank01

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8 hours ago, Yank01 said:

Maybe. But the rules for attack state: 

  1. Measure Range: The attacking player measures range from the attacker to any number of enemy ships and determines which enemy ships are in which of its arcs.
  • If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay the costs required for the attack, the attacking player either chooses a different weapon or chooses not to attack.

During an attack, you may measure range and then if there’s no valid target you could choose not to attack. You wouldn’t be forced to cluster missile or proton torpedo yourself if there wasn’t a valid enemy target. Under this logic Vader shouldn’t have to force choke a friendly either.  

Unfortunately that logic doesn't quite hold up, because attack rules state that you measure to any number of enemy ships and that you may choose not to attack if there is no valid target. Friendly ships are perfectly valid (if undesirable) targets for Vader.

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8 minutes ago, Maui. said:

Unfortunately that logic doesn't quite hold up, because attack rules state that you measure to any number of enemy ships and that you may choose not to attack if there is no valid target. Friendly ships are perfectly valid (if undesirable) targets for Vader.

Even if there are valid targets to attack you do not have to attack. 

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On 8/26/2019 at 3:47 PM, Lyianx said:

Well yeah. That's kinda the point and risk of using Vader. If FFG didn't intend or want to put your own ships at risk, they would have worded him to say "choose 1 enemy ship". 

Pretty much every ability in the game is Declared before anything on that ability is even read or put in the ability queue. You declare you are using Vader. Vader's ability is then put in the ability queue. Then you resolve Vader's ability if at all possible. The "may" in his wording is your option to declare using him or not. Not get half way though is ability, then decide to not use him. Once hes in the ability queue, he gets resolved, or the ability fails to resolve if there are no ships or active force tokens.

At least, this is how i view it (and apparently how the TO views it as well).
 

I didn't think I agreed with this side of the fence, but it turns out I do.

You may choose a ship.... Once you have elected to choose a ship, the ability unfolds in full from there.

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9 hours ago, Yank01 said:

Maybe. But the rules for attack state: 

  1. Measure Range: The attacking player measures range from the attacker to any number of enemy ships and determines which enemy ships are in which of its arcs.
  • If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay the costs required for the attack, the attacking player either chooses a different weapon or chooses not to attack.

During an attack, you may measure range and then if there’s no valid target you could choose not to attack. You wouldn’t be forced to cluster missile or proton torpedo yourself if there wasn’t a valid enemy target. Under this logic Vader shouldn’t have to force choke a friendly either.  

 

1 hour ago, Maui. said:

Unfortunately that logic doesn't quite hold up, because attack rules state that you measure to any number of enemy ships and that you may choose not to attack if there is no valid target. Friendly ships are perfectly valid (if undesirable) targets for Vader.

Also, those rules are specifically for Attack, and it lays out exactly what you are allowed to do. Normally you are not allowed to measure range unless something specifically tells you that you can, and this is telling you that you can. It doesnt mean it applies to anything else.. Only for attacks. Its making specific allowances during an attack. 

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1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

 

Also, those rules are specifically for Attack, and it lays out exactly what you are allowed to do. Normally you are not allowed to measure range unless something specifically tells you that you can, and this is telling you that you can. It doesnt mean it applies to anything else.. Only for attacks. Its making specific allowances during an attack. 

Understood that these rules are  specifically for attack. It was in response to the post about rules for lock. Neither fits the bill entirely.

2 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

You may choose a ship.... Once you have elected to choose a ship, the ability unfolds in full from there.

Specifically, it says you may choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 1-2.  Under the most literal read you select a ship before you know if it meets the firing arc/range criteria.  If the chosen ship is not there it doesn’t say to choose another that is. By that read it would mean the ability fails at that point. I don’t know that I love that either, but it doesn’t  say you have to keep looking for something that does meet that criteria.

I get that there is an advantage to measuring early, but at the point this triggers, high init ships are about to start measuring range to any number of enemy targets.  The advantage is there, but less so than if it were at the beginning of the planning or movement phases.

I definitely lean toward the interpretation that you don’t need to attack yourself, but I agree that there is enough ambiguity there that it could go either way. Thematically, it’s not like Vader hasn’t force choked a friendly (“I find your lack of faith disturbing”; “You are in command now, Admiral Piett”)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I didn't think I agreed with this side of the fence, but it turns out I do.

You may choose a ship.... Once you have elected to choose a ship, the ability unfolds in full from there.

With above caveats, I’m leaning the way @Lyianx explained too. Lol. But totally becuz I like the connection thematically and with 1.0 Vader! 😜

 

Edited by JBFancourt

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Posted (edited)
On 8/28/2019 at 11:20 AM, Yank01 said:

 Thematically, it’s not like Vader hasn’t force choked a friendly (“I find your lack of faith disturbing”; “You are in command now, Admiral Piett”)

Apology accepted, Captain Needa.
tumblr_od3h449WtM1rlheeoo3_r1_500.gif

Edited by Lyianx

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Q: Does Sense require you to spend 1 Force before measuring range to other ships?


A: No. You can measure range to see which ships are at range 0–1 and which ships are at range 0–3 before deciding whether or not to spend the Force to affect a ship at range 0–3.

Does this precedent effect anyone’s thoughts???

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