Map discrepensies

[Daeglan 5,950]

I noticed the map from the Mask of the Oni and the Map from Winters Embrace have discrepancies.. I was planning on overlapping the 2 to make a bigger rokugan map as more adventures came out...put it looks like they dont match up. I suspect this is because each map is only accurate for the clan that "owns the maps" land...

[Black_Rabbit_Inle 166]

Maps in Rokugan are notoriously bad (at least in previous editions).   The fact is, no map of Rokugan should be considered “accurate” and there are many reasons for this.  Consider that many different organizations might commission maps, and all of those organizations will emphasize different things.  Merchants will note all the small roads and shortcuts, where samurai might only note official roads, but the samurai might also note strategic positions that the merchants would know nothing about.  Now consider that most of the people being commissioned to make maps aren’t explorers or scouts..  they tend to be bureaucrats who simply collate information from other inaccurate maps, and those same people may simply ask someone else what lies down a certain road, without ever actually traveling the road in question.  And then of course Rokugan is a land of magic, and rivers have been known to pop-up or disappear over night and lakes have been known to shrink, grow, or even move over the course of a winter, while most of the official maps around the empire are centuries old.

[Avatar111 553]

It was obviously done on purpose for narrative reasons.

[Void Crane 189]

So ... uh ... you found that the maps don't quite line up. 😝😝😝

I would like to think that something like the following response goes out with some regularity...

 

Most Honorable Samurai,

The Imperial Government of Rokugan under the "Most Heaven Blessed" Emperor, wants you to know that your concerns over alleged cartographic inaccuracies and discrepancies have been noted. Please. If you would state for the record if these are Imperial maps that you are criticizing? Also, as you must surely know, your honor and status are currently being reviewed and compared against Miya cartographers. Just in case. We want you to know that we are considering your letter, and will arrange a full, proper and formal response ... in due course.

Respectfully,

A Very Important Imperial Functionary 

 

[narukagami 118]

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I noticed the map from the Mask of the Oni and the Map from Winters Embrace have discrepancies.. I was planning on overlapping the 2 to make a bigger rokugan map as more adventures came out...put it looks like they dont match up. I suspect this is because each map is only accurate for the clan that "owns the maps" land...

To make everyone else is saying totally clear:

Yes, it's intentional. The map never being accurate has been a tradition in L5R since the franchise was birthed by Alderac Entertainment Group in 1995. For good or ill, FFG is just keeping up the tradition.

Some people have found it frustrating since it makes trying to figure out traveling to here or there a hassle, some actually freeing since there's nothing set in stone to say there isn't a village here or castle there, but that's the way it is.

Edited August 24, 2019 by narukagami

[DGLaderoute 897]

As a writer, I'm personally quite happy with the state of Rokugani cartography. Maps that are contradictory, lack scale and are just generally accepted as being at least somewhat inaccurate make storytelling easier. I sincerely hope FFG never produces a canonical, "correct" map of the Empire with a scale, because that now becomes another bunch of factors to build into the narrative i.e. nitty-gritty bits about time, distance, location, etc...'cause, if you don't get it right, you KNOW everyone is going to hear about it. Unfortunately, except maybe in some VERY specific instances, none of that is going to significantly advance the plot or develop characters.

[Suzume Chikahisa 313]

In the real world, before the mid 18th Century it was phisically impossible to make any sort of accurate map due to technological limitations. In fact, truly accurate maps only appear in the Space Age and they still need updating.

 

Consider that rivers can relatively frequently change their paths, how vulcanic and tectonic activity can create islands, or how winter snow just move natural or man made landmarkers around.

 

I hate, hate, that people will harp on the "The Emperor says the map is correct, so everyone will prtend it's correct" instead of admiting that the land, a land where deities occasionaly intervene directly, just changes. It even flies on the face of the cartographer campaigns. Rokugani know their maps are incorrect and don't see it as an act of blasphemy or treason to point out that they need updating. That's why the Imperial Cartographers exist. And having the Centipede Lands either on the Mountains of Regret or the Spine of the World is not a in-setting difference of interpretation, it's a **** up because either someone wanted to retcon the Centipede's location but forgot to change the lore and geography description or didn't want to and well, failed by a measure of "this doesn't even make sense because the map perfectly reproduces the proportions and geographical features which would be the parts where such errors would occur naturally but instead miseably fails in locating the political features by a degree of wrong side of the continent".

 

Personally I think a "accurate" map is useful for the GM (and will keep using the one from the Atlas of Rokugan for that), but that's about it, for the players it's for the most part meaningless or it should be a plot point.

[Avatar111 553]

Bottom line, a map doesn't need to be accurate in term of scale to tell a good story, same as a detailed economic system is not what this game is about.

Doesn't excuse map icons sometimes in the wrong place compared to the books descritpions. But the goal is noble and I fully agree with it. A game cannot be everything, choose your battles.

[neilcell 252]

26 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

In the real world, before the mid 18th Century it was phisically impossible to make any sort of accurate map due to technological limitations. In fact, truly accurate maps only appear in the Space Age and they still need updating.

 

Consider that rivers can relatively frequently change their paths, how vulcanic and tectonic activity can create islands, or how winter snow just move natural or man made landmarkers around.

 

I hate, hate, that people will harp on the "The Emperor says the map is correct, so everyone will prtend it's correct" instead of admiting that the land, a land where deities occasionaly intervene directly, just changes. It even flies on the face of the cartographer campaigns. Rokugani know their maps are incorrect and don't see it as an act of blasphemy or treason to point out that they need updating. That's why the Imperial Cartographers exist. And having the Centipede Lands either on the Mountains of Regret or the Spine of the World is not a in-setting difference of interpretation, it's a **** up because either someone wanted to retcon the Centipede's location but forgot to change the lore and geography description or didn't want to and well, failed by a measure of "this doesn't even make sense because the map perfectly reproduces the proportions and geographical features which would be the parts where such errors would occur naturally but instead miseably fails in locating the political features by a degree of wrong side of the continent".

 

Personally I think a "accurate" map is useful for the GM (and will keep using the one from the Atlas of Rokugan for that), but that's about it, for the players it's for the most part meaningless or it should be a plot point.

I don't disagree that the Earth's surface is constantly changing.  As for the Imperial Cartographers, they much like actual Eastern cultures, have been know to purposely promote inaccurate maps fully aware of the discrepancy for one reason or another.  The most obvious one is to keep a remote pass through a natural mountain barrier a secret because it would reveal a critical gap in a clan's defense line.  Another might be because the Seppun want to keep emergency escape and evacuation routes for the Emperor secret(but it would be a safe guess that the Scorpion would already know about them.  If not, then the Seppun are playing a shadow war of their own with the clan of secrets.).  Yet another might be due to taxing of merchants based on distance; a shorter route would cut into the profit margins of trade crossing a clan's territory.  I say take your reason and find a way to weave it into your story.

[UnitOmega 2,818]

I always took it more as the general politeness. The imperial cartographers are appointed to an office under the Son of Heaven, just like say, Emerald Magistrates. That means politically you don't really want to **** on them because say, one of them thought it was more artistic to draw a mountain here when that's really more of a hill. Or that, despite no geological border, they've decided your province ends in the middle of a field, because it's more mathematically pleasing. It kind of gives carte blanche not only for the modern audience to accept the "flexibility" of maps, but also to make their position somewhat politically charged, but not in some naked and crass way. You don't just hit up an Imperial Cartographer and go "yo, last year you guys screwed up, I need a new map", but it's kind of a complex thing, and in-setting the answer is not just "oh, I guess something changed let's update the map now", but you can go "ah, according to the honorable maps made in the name of the Emperor, this village is not here, would you like to imply the Emperor's map-makers were incorrect?". If you can just say "ah, it's not right, something changed, do it again" that makes the Imperial Cartographers a little bit more routine and drudge-like. Obviously, making and having the maps the Cartographers know stuff has "moved" over time, and probably know when it's a good idea to take a new map, but they are prestigious servants of the Emperor, so they have some status to project and protect. I have been told Imperial Cartographers is a popular campaign seed, so it makes sense to give them a bit of that authority so they can actually have some of that dynamic aspect to making maps. Makes better storytelling. 

[T_Kageyasu 155]

Why are there no scale bars in earlier edition maps? Well, do you want to be the one to explain why the Emperor's Road isn't as long as His Excellency was led to believe?

[Void Crane 189]

18 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

...snip...I hate, hate, that people will harp on the "The Emperor says the map is correct, so everyone will pretend it's correct" instead of admiting that the land, a land where deities occasionaly intervene directly, just changes. It even flies on the face of the cartographer campaigns. Rokugani know their maps are incorrect and don't see it as an act of blasphemy or treason to point out that they need updating...snip... 

...snip...Personally I think a "accurate" map is useful for the GM (and will keep using the one from the Atlas of Rokugan for that), but that's about it, for the players it's for the most part meaningless or it should be a plot point.

Mea Culpa! I am guilty of this. But then I also love other RP games like Paranoia where dealing with an awful bureaucracy is part of the fun and craziness. Mileage based on enjoyment varies. Everyone should be making their samurai tales fit to the strengths of the GMs and the players.  I think a big part is also how one asks about "problems" between two maps.  A polite "update" almost certainly gets treated with a lot more respect than an angry complaint.

While I agree that there are real limitations to accurate maps based on technology and the supernatural, I also believe that a lot of blood sweat and tears go into controlling what information goes onto any given map. And what information is available on a given map is not always the total of what information a map maker has access to...

I think its should be fair to say that almost all provincial daimyos have a strong sense of the geography of their land. And aggregating that, all of the Great Clans should have a strong sense of the geography of their collective territory. But its not impossible that a provincial Daimyo might leave off a feature or two when the Family Champion ask all of his subordinates for their maps to aggregate that knowledge. *What? Smugglers use a game trail there?* ***Shock*** And it's almost certainly advantageous for a Family Champion to limit the knowledge available to outsiders and traders. *Please stay on the main roads honorable visiting samurai* Repeat this again at the Clan Champion level. Then guard your knowledge carefully from other Clans.

AND then impose a second set of maps from the Imperial Cartographers who presumably focus on the roads and infrastructure that are most important to the Imperial Family. But they also go where ever they wish. One shouldn't need to stretch their imaginations far to see benefits to the Imperial Court of selectively nudging trade and troop movements into areas where in can be easily counted and quantified ...

I personally believe map making in Rokugan is a very political process. 

I do agree strongly with your last statement. Most of the time its only the GM who really needs to know where everything is.

[MythicFox 11]

Personally, I can handle inconsistent scale, the occasional wrong map icon, that sort of thing. But one thing that drove me nuts about previous editions was how certain landmarks would move. One particular example that really got under my skin was "Three Man Alliance Plain," where the Sparrow, Fox, and Wasp Clans teamed up to prevent the Scorpion from bulldozing Sparrow Lands for a hyperspace bypass better trade route. And in each edition of the RPG, Three Man Alliance Plain wound up further and further away from Sparrow lands, despite the fact that the battle canonically happened right on the border.