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Schu81

XWing 2.0 - not as good anymore?

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Posted (edited)

Hello Community!

Actually, XWing has been my favorite game for years, but somehow the magic (or force) is not as strong anymore.

I have got a feeling, that I have got far less options to create strong lists.

To me, list building is an important part of the game and that's where the fun begins. Finding great lists is playing XWing, before ACTUALLY playing it.

Unfortunately, most upgrade cards are not as strong anymore and FFG tries to keep the pilot abilites rather weak since 2.0 dropped. I originally thought this was a good idea, but somehow this just gives me less list building options than before.

Being the "Rebel guy" in my local community, I'd love to get some nice goodies for my ships.

But there is hardly any new stuff coming out for the old factions.

Yes, there are new factions with new ships... but I can't use their stuff for the most part, because the powerful things are restricted to a certain faction. 

My favorite upgrade card in XWing 1.0 used to be the "Predator" skill. It was awesome :)

You could put that on almost any ship (just like an Auzituck for example) and make it a decent fighter, which could use it's main ability (reinforce) while still being able to modify attack dice.

There is no such thing anymore. You have to put a force user on a ship instead, which is far more difficult and expensive (unique card, crew or gunner slow required).

Apart from that, I really miss discovering and using some really strong synnergy effects between pilots and upgrade cards.

Why is there no Ten Numb with Mangler Cannon anymore? I am not mentioning Horton Salm and TLT here, because TLTs were really really bad for the game in general. But I think you get the idea, of what I mean.

Yes, a lot of things are much better now... for example the fact, that the arc matters a lot more.

But it's difficult enough to get and keep things in arc, so why are the really good cards bullseye only (predator)?

Why are there so few great upgrade cards, that taking another ship instead of any upgrades at all seems to be a good choice nowadays?

 

Edited by Schu81

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Remember that games like Xwing exist in time, and they change in time. You are at the early moments of Xwing 2.0. A lot of upgrade slots aren't even filled with things that are strong takes. There are no strong take cannons, or missiles. Barely talents. 

Now there's two ways this can go: If FFG learned from Xwing 1.0, they won't make pure value/double mod cards like Predator that work almost all the time. You could still have strong upgrades that do interesting things that aren't double-mod type of things. There is an argument that they can price things like this really high, but it'll be likely there will be combos or agility/initiative/base-size values where its a must take. 
So far, we've seen limiting be a good way of avoiding this: R2 has 2 charges, not infinite. Diamond Borons are limited. 

Or two, FFG doesn't learn, and slowly upgrades start creeping in that are more powerful, and power level goes up for combo-upgrade centric lists, while generics generally go down. 

 

24 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Why are there so few great upgrade cards, that taking another ship instead of any upgrades at all seems to be a good choice nowadays?

I wholly disagree with this. Generics atm are not amazing great over more typical 3 ship lists. 2 ship lists definitely took a hit, as they probably should: less point/all-game-efficiency fortressing, too many good option large turrets. 

 

26 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

But it's difficult enough to get and keep things in arc, so why are the really good cards bullseye only (predator)?

Because it makes the game so much better. It forces you to fly better, or use a ship that can really have attributes that get thru the restrictions. (High mobility+boost for bullseye)

Is Predator mostly useless on things except like Soontir? Yeah. But that's much better than it used to be with everything getting free mods. 

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Hey Schu!

one thing I've noticed about 2.0 is that it's a lot less about the way the cards combo and more about how the ships combo... the game's a lot more balanced in general so there's a lot more feasible options overall. So a lot more thought has to go into "what is this list's win condition?" "How do I use these ships together?" "How will my opponent try to counter this list and how should I be prepared to play against that strategy?" And questions of the like. 

Listbuilding is pretty different now but honestly I feel like I have to think a lot harder about it that almost every pilot is on a pretty much even level with every other pilot, if that makes sense.

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Posted (edited)

I find there's a huge amount of diversity. 

And if you forced me to, I'd be easily able to come up with powerful, tier1 lists for Rebel I'd be willing to gamble tournaments on. 

 

First thing that popped to mind: 
I'd fly this. 

Wedge Antilles (55)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Luke Skywalker (62)
R2 Astromech (4)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Jake Farrell (36)

Partisan Renegade (43)
Pivot Wing (0)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Edited by Blail Blerg

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This is good too. With plenty of options with HWK jam/Leia. 

You could go Jake for 36, or Zeb attack shuttle too for 5x3=15 red dice. With Rebel Beef not being a dominant force at I5 anymore, I'd take this too. 

And hey there go you. Rebel Beef was overperforming just a few months ago. Really? Rebels not good? 

Blue Squadron Pilot (41)

Blue Squadron Pilot (41)

Blue Squadron Pilot (41)

Blue Squadron Pilot (41)

Rebel Scout (30)
Leia Organa (6)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

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List building can be harder: when lots of pilots/ships are equally decent, why take one over another?

Eg, for a while, you could pick any 4 rebel pilots and do well if you practice that list. Slightly harder now, fortunately.

Same with many upgrades. When they are balanced, you can choose any. But few leap out and say 'build a list around me'.

This makes coming up with a theme or idea for a list harder, however it is far better than in 1st ed where 90% of the options led to you losing!

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4 hours ago, Schu81 said:

I have got a feeling, that I have got far less options to create strong lists.

To me, list building is an important part of the game and that's where the fun begins. Finding great lists is playing XWing, before ACTUALLY playing it.

...

Yes, a lot of things are much better now... for example the fact, that the arc matters a lot more.

Remember when X-wing was broken all to ****?  The game had so much Over Powered options that most things were just not worth flying and only flying some of the most offensive stuff was worth while?   What did people say?  "If it's not broke, don't fly it."  Before, the game was often decided in the list building phase.  If you didn't take a top tier list, then you lost 95% of the time.  While it was fun to try to find the broken combos, it was an unbalanced game.

What I see now is that it is less now what you put in your list than how you fly it.  Your comment about the arcs mattering hits the nail on the head.  X-wing had started out being about out flying your opponents and had ended with out combo-ing your opponent.  

2 hours ago, Kieransi said:

one thing I've noticed about 2.0 is that it's a lot less about the way the cards combo and more about how the ships combo... the game's a lot more balanced in general so there's a lot more feasible options overall.

I would've said, "it's a lot less about the way the cards combo and more about flying".

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X-wing is largely at the best it’s ever been.

I do understand the frustration of not having any new things since the wave 1 or wave 2 launch. I’ve left plenty of salt in these forums over that world. Thankfully, the Resistance and FO are finally getting something in wave 6. Early 2020 will be the card packs, and you’ll have more pilots for the old ships then AND access to generic upgrades you didn’t get if you didn’t buy prequel stuff.

Aside from the “where’s my ships” for the long time players, I don’t see a lot of problems. The game is fun - you just can’t win the game in the list building phase. Personally, I’ll take the tough choices in building over the easy button “I want Poe, so Poe will have exactly XYZ stapled.”

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It sounds like you enjoyed the card combo aspect of 1.0, which seems less/different in 2.0. I do love card combos, so if you want that in X-Wing, maybe try the Quick Builds - they are often set up for card combos I wouldn’t have immediately noticed and they have helped me learn a lot.

But if you don’t mind getting into another game, perhaps try a TCG/LCG like Magic or Destiny, or a board game like Terraforming Mars or Wingspan, if card combos is what you like best. Unless I misunderstand what you are looking for. All the best!

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7 hours ago, Schu81 said:

To me, list building is an important part of the game and that's where the fun begins.

My favorite upgrade card in XWing 1.0 used to be the "Predator" skill. It was awesome :)

You could put that on almost any ship (just like an Auzituck for example) and make it a decent fighter,

There is no such thing anymore.

"I loved listbuilding in 1.0 cuz there was one overpowered card that I used to put on everything."

🤔

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Yeah, basically what everyone else above me ^ has said. If you’re looking for that one overpowered combo that will allow you to win 95% of your games 200-0 without having to think about what you’re doing during gameplay then you won’t find it in 2nd edition. FFG is now actively hunting such combos and slapping them down with point increases as soon as they find them. 

 

And that is why 2.0 is awesome:D

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5 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Eg, for a while, you could pick any 4 rebel pilots and do well if you practice that list. Slightly harder now, fortunately.

I agree with this idea, right up until the word "fortunately".

Being able to take a mix of ships that you enjoy, practicing with them, and being able to do well with them is the ideal state of X-wing, at least in my opinion.

I think the game is best when the player's ability to choose good maneuvers is a more important factor than the player's ability to identify combos (or, heaven forbid, copy them from other people).  By that metric, the game is as healthy and fun as it has ever been.

Also, and I might be in the minority here, reducing dice variance by adding easy, reliable dice mods would make the game less fun.  I want to always feel like I have a chance, even if I get off to a bad start.  I never want the end of a game to feel like the second half of a game of Monopoly, a slow, inevitable defeat without hope.

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If there was one lesson I took from first edition its do not faction lock yourself.  It is not worth it to be that factions guy at you lfgs.  

With seven factions, 4 of which that are considerably smaller it will be awhile before rebels get something new outside of card packs. 

I think if you try new factions list building will open up.  I would recommend trying something outside of normal rebel archetypes.  This why when your preferred playstyle is in rough shape you have a plan b.  

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7 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Why is there no Ten Numb with Mangler Cannon anymore? I am not mentioning Horton Salm and TLT here, because TLTs were really really bad for the game in general. But I think you get the idea, of what I mean.

Autoblasters + Marksmanship can go on a LOT of different ships now.  However, for the same consistency, you'll need bullseye on something, and to be out of their firing arc.

I like that.  It's less about finding a particular borked combo, and more about execution.

7 hours ago, Schu81 said:

My favorite upgrade card in XWing 1.0 used to be the "Predator" skill. It was awesome :)

You could put that on almost any ship (just like an Auzituck for example) and make it a decent fighter, which could use it's main ability (reinforce) while still being able to modify attack dice.

 

35 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

"I loved listbuilding in 1.0 cuz there was one overpowered card that I used to put on everything."

🤔

I'll try to spin this in a more positive light, @Darth Meanie . Generally good upgrades like Predator, K4 Security Droid, or even Wookiee Comandos, meant that a ship didn't necessarily have to devote their action to red dice mods, but could more easily explore the interesting capacities of their ships.  Auzitucks with Predator or Wookiees or Expertise could reinforce and still matter.  Dash Rendar with Lone Wolf and Rey could use his large-base barrel roll.

Now, an Auzituck needs to focus to have decent guns.  Now, Dash probably has to focus to not-die, since he's squishy for his high high price.  Ships can't really use their cool tricks anymore.  But...

1e certainly had too much cheap and easy dice mods.  I feel like the overall environment of 2e is better, healthier.  I can understand where @Schu81 is coming from, since there are fewer nifty tricks, even if I think 2e is overall superior.

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45 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

"I loved listbuilding in 1.0 cuz there was one overpowered card that I used to put on everything."

🤔

Look, real talk here: I do miss some of the obscene combo-wing shenanigans that were facilitated by the ever-more-OP upgrades. Having patches on patches on patches to make a ship viable was empirically stupid from a design perspective, but sometimes stupid-fun to play. I get less glee out of looking for silly OP jank to unleash on my buddy, and it’s usually much less hilarious when one of us starts pulling ahead in games.

I guess what I’m saying is that 2.0 feels less like a beer and pretzels game than 1.0 did. Overall it feels a lot tighter and better-designed. You really don’t need to chase all the ships or upgrades. It’s a lot more on you as a player to fly well, because your upgrades aren’t going to carry you. That’s probably mostly good, but sometimes it leaves the game feeling more intense and less like a goofy good time.

I keenly miss a couple of specific upgrades and the play-styles that they enabled. But it’s still a good game. The core gameplay has never been so solid.

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While I don't miss combo-wing, increased variance can be frustrating. It would be far better to decrease variance across the board, though, than to add in upgrades that only ships with a particular slot can use- 1.0 Predator put generics in a really awkward spot since on top of all the innate disadvantages of being a low PS pilot, you also had much less consistent dice.

 

2.0 would have required a major revision to the dice system to accommodate that, though.

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OP seems to miss finding those hidden "broken" combo cards so he can make a superior list. 

The thing is a balanced game is, by necessity, not going to have much of that.  Pretty much by definition.   To use an NFL analogy, it's like complaining that you miss all the dynasty teams of the old days now that the salary cap and free agency rules have introduced league parity.  That's kind of the whole point of those rules.

Correct me if I am misunderstanding you.  But if I'm not, parity and balance is what this game needs.  It's no fun when there are whole swathes of "unplayable" stuff because it's not competitive, and the only way to have the sorts of lists you're talking about, means that by necessity some will be weaker and not competitive.

Maybe you are just burned out and need a break?  Maybe you should try playing other games, or still play X-Wing, but in non-standard formats?  Try some X-Wing Mario Kart, or set up a Trench Run scenario or some such?  I would suggest that might help.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Squark said:

While I don't miss combo-wing, increased variance can be frustrating. It would be far better to decrease variance across the board, though,

Increased variance is only frustrating right now because everyone is used to having it mitigated. 

Variance is a huge part of the game, and decreasing it is what destroyed 1.0.

The randomness of dice is an integral part of the game.  It's exactly what makes an tough ship killable and a mediocre ship have a chance.  They are the best leveler.  Let them do their job.

1 hour ago, CoffeeMinion said:

I guess what I’m saying is that 2.0 feels less like a beer and pretzels game than 1.0 did.

Then you're doing it wrong. ;)

Standard has always sucked as beer-and-pretzels gaming, and a tighter rule set is not going to make that better.

Play the Asteroid Field environment.  It's a blast, and it is totally BnP-style gaming.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Ships can't really use their cool tricks anymore. 

I don't think it's that they can't use their tricks anymore as much as it is that using the tricks is not simply automatic.  In 1E (in my experience), even people who weren't trying to find broken combos still built their lists to a particular rhythm.  Every turn, they'd do pretty much the exact same thing (apart from performing different maneuvers), and up going into engagement with the exact same set of bugs turn after turn.

In 2E, there are more choices to make.  Doing something different is no longer a sign that something went wrong with your plan, but merely an admission that the situation one turn is different from the situation another turn. 

1 hour ago, direweasel said:

Maybe you are just burned out and need a break?  Maybe you should try playing other games, or still play X-Wing, but in non-standard formats?  Try some X-Wing Mario Kart, or set up a Trench Run scenario or some such?  I would suggest that might help.

These aren't bad suggestions, but just keep in mind they may not be possible for everyone (for instance, if your play group consists of people who only ever want to play tournament rules).

36 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

The randomness of dice is an integral part of the game.  It's exactly what makes an tough ship killable and a mediocre ship have a chance.  They are the best leveler.  Let them do their job.

Personally, while dice may be frustrating, they really do simulate the experience of the PC games quite well.  Once battle is joined, ships tend to joke around a bit, and even the best shot may miss just because an enemy zigged when you thought he'd zag.  Pilot skill is definitely a factor, but I recall random chance could sometimes cause a mission to be considerably longer or shorter if a vital shot was missed/made.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Increased variance is only frustrating right now because everyone is used to having it mitigated. 

Variance is a huge part of the game, and decreasing it is what destroyed 1.0.

The randomness of dice is an integral part of the game.  It's exactly what makes an tough ship killable and a mediocre ship have a chance.  They are the best leveler.  Let them do their job.

While a general increase in randomness can help the underdog to a point, it's often unsatisfying. I'm not saying dice don't have their place in the game, but for every "Great Shot, kid, that was one in a million!" point where randomness creates an exciting and memorable turning point, there's several games where the dice are too hot or too cold and nobody gets to have fun. It doesn't help that variance reduction is not evenly available, either.

Edited by Squark

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Well, I understand that a lot of people disagree with me, but maybe I didnt explain my main points properly.

1. I would love my ships to do something cool, not just focus every round. Being able to reposition or something like that (Plus focus).

2. I always try to minimize dice variance. I believe in statistics and dont really want to rely on luck all that much. Trying to minimize the luck factor is good listbuilding in my oppinion. Otherwise you could always just roll dice, without modificators. That doesnt mean I want anything overpowered. Of course things should be balanced and weil priced.

3. Predator Upgrade was just an example. How can it be OP, if every faction can use it? There has to be a reasonable price for it to avoid spamming, but it could bring some more interesting combinations to the table.

Not just Wedge or Luke. 

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20 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I don't think it's that they can't use their tricks anymore as much as it is that using the tricks is not simply automatic.  In 1E (in my experience), even people who weren't trying to find broken combos still built their lists to a particular rhythm.  Every turn, they'd do pretty much the exact same thing (apart from performing different maneuvers), and up going into engagement with the exact same set of bugs turn after turn.

It was mostly exaggeration to make a point.  I think it's a net good that there's a higher cost, but there is a loss to making it harder to do tricks.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

These aren't bad suggestions, but just keep in mind they may not be possible for everyone (for instance, if your play group consists of people who only ever want to play tournament rules).

My advice to that person would be "Be the change you want to see."

By that I mean take some leadership and set stuff up.  I was in a similar environment, but was able to sell a few people on a "Last Man Standing" rules set.  I presented it at first as a good way to introduce new people to the game, since you only have to keep track of one ship, but it's since spread so that we play that fairly frequently, even when there are no new people around at all.

For those who aren't familiar, it's very simple.  You get one small or medium ship, 80 points or less, and put up to 8 people on a single 3x3 map.  No shooting first round, 2 points for each ship you destroy, -1 for dying.  Most points wins, IE you get a bonus for being the "Last Man Standing", but just flying around avoiding combat is discouraged too.  Only other restriction is no Lone Wolf, since it would always apply.  I always have a few pre-made for new players so they don't have to dig into list building, with iconic ships and pilots that anybody even moderately familiar with SW would know.  It would also be really easy to use the quickbuild cards to do the same thing.

Once I convinced them of how fun that was, they were a bit more flexible when I debuted other alternate play styles.  Now we throw down Mario Kart and Hunger Games sometimes, and once I get all the Trench Run bits, (which I'm close!) we'll do that too.  :)

 

Edited by direweasel

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Squark said:

It would be far better to decrease variance across the board, though, than to add in upgrades that only ships with a particular slot can use-

I highly doubt you'd find many players who agree with that.  Increased variance is a wonderful and glorious thing!  It's what makes the game interesting and variable.  You can set up the same squadrons 10 times, and get 10 different results.
 

Edited by direweasel

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