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Bucknife

Where are the Rebels?

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35 minutes ago, DerRitter said:

Being in broad terms a "rebel player" myself I would say that rebels right now don't excel at anything, and that makes them boring to play

One thing Rebels do have that Republic don't are Torpedo slots.

Plasma Torp Wedge and Proton Torp Luke might be an interesting start to a list.  Anakin can't regen if he's dead.

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3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

One thing Rebels do have that Republic don't are Torpedo slots.

Plasma Torp Wedge and Proton Torp Luke might be an interesting start to a list.  Anakin can't regen if he's dead.

I played some Corran/Luke with protorps and is really fun list (if you can alpha something quick). Luke  did have SNR for being extra squirrely!! 

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

One thing Rebels do have that Republic don't are Torpedo slots.

Plasma Torp Wedge and Proton Torp Luke might be an interesting start to a list.  Anakin can't regen if he's dead.

That is an interesting start for sure. Plasma wedge and proton Luke leave you with 61 points to fill out the list. Question is what do you fill it out with.. 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, battlestarbill said:

That is an interesting start for sure. Plasma wedge and proton Luke leave you with 61 points to fill out the list. Question is what do you fill it out with.. 

Sabine Attack Shuttle + bid

Procket LoneWolf Jake RZ1?

Ten HLC B-Wing?

Leia carrier U-Wing? (Probably the right choice)

ProTorp Red Vet?

Norra Turret Y-Wing?

.........

Edited by Bucknife

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19 minutes ago, battlestarbill said:

That is an interesting start for sure. Plasma wedge and proton Luke leave you with 61 points to fill out the list. Question is what do you fill it out with.. 

I've got 2x Phoenix A-Wings packed, to follow the 2 Ace + 2 Blocker strategy, but going with a support Jake could work well.

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9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

VTG and turrets might still be undercoated now (and universal anyway)

🤨 I hope I'm not reading this right. Undercosted? VTG is back where it should have stayed but the turrets are back to being too expensive for their effect... 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, battlestarbill said:

That is an interesting start for sure. Plasma wedge and proton Luke leave you with 61 points to fill out the list. Question is what do you fill it out with.. 

Add in Biggs and make a fun and thematic "Trench Run Trio".  Biggs isn't what he was in 1st Ed, but he doesn't suck, either.

This list doesn't have Plasma Torps on Wedge, but you could easily put them there without changing the dynamic much.

Biggs Darklighter (48)
R2 Astromech (4)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Wedge Antilles (55)
Predator (2)
R2 Astromech (4)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Luke Skywalker (62)
Instinctive Aim (1)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R2-D2 (5)
Shield Upgrade (6)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Edited by direweasel

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Eh, I don't know or particularly care about the logic surrounding the top small% of Xwing unless it bleeds into the local scene

For my part, I've seen next to no rebels recently. 

Is it that they're nerfed? 

Id be more willing to believe it's because we got shiney new toys especially given all the Republic we got lately

Like, it really doesnt matter how good or not you are when many locals have been here since at least 1st edition, Wave 4. You better believe we'll fly the new shinies first

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This thread is hilarious. People suggesting rebels are terrible, the worst faction, man what comic gold. I’d worry if I thought any of you actually believed that. Well played, thanks for the laugh all.

Seriously, the faction that is least vulnerable to the depredations of dice due to their mainline fighters being of a medium to heavy build with decent flexibility and good linked actions/ pilot abilities? They are always going to be one of the most reliable factions as they are far less likely to huge dice swings one shotting them than, say, any non Soontir interceptor. 

I also have seen plenty of local success with Rebels. PDX has lots of good rebel players who fly a variety of things. And they do well. Heck we see a ton of very good E-wing play, and if you think those aren’t very good _right now_ I suggest the problem is not the ship but rather the people playing them.

Of course I also said the same about the v1, but I was still the only person locally flying one with any regularity.

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I must say that I'm still plenty surprised we're not getting a lot of praise for the Xwing in...xwing

Yeah sure, Wedge isn't stupid cheap anymore but the platform is still incredibly solid and surprisingly versatile between servos and all its pilots.

Id think it's almost impossible for the faction to be "bad" with a solid ship like that. 

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I took a Dash/AP-5 list out a couple weeks ago for kicks, just to see if the YT-2400 could ever win. Pulled a win against 3 Kimogilas and Torkil Mux. Then lost against a Sinker swarm.

My takeaway: Republic is really strong right now, so most Rebel mains have gone there. Rebels aren't in a bad spot but aren't as exciting at the moment.

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2 hours ago, millertime059 said:

This thread is hilarious. People suggesting rebels are terrible, the worst faction, man what comic gold. I’d worry if I thought any of you actually believed that. Well played, thanks for the laugh all.

Seriously, the faction that is least vulnerable to the depredations of dice due to their mainline fighters being of a medium to heavy build with decent flexibility and good linked actions/ pilot abilities? They are always going to be one of the most reliable factions as they are far less likely to huge dice swings one shotting them than, say, any non Soontir interceptor. 

I also have seen plenty of local success with Rebels. PDX has lots of good rebel players who fly a variety of things. And they do well. Heck we see a ton of very good E-wing play, and if you think those aren’t very good _right now_ I suggest the problem is not the ship but rather the people playing them.

Of course I also said the same about the v1, but I was still the only person locally flying one with any regularity.

 

So, objectively, the cut rate for Rebels has been consistently weak.  I can't recall a cut post points change where Rebels have been over represented.  Even scanning through Meta Wing as of time of typing for my own curiosity, there's 1 Rebel ship in the top 20 (U-Wing), the X-Wing is at 21 with a lot of entries but a weak overall win rate, and 1 Rebel Pilot in the top 20 (Heff Tobber at 15).  Every other faction has at least 2 ships/pilots in the top 20.  It "looks" like U-Wings are doing well, but they have very few entries and the pilots and ships that do have significantly more entries like Luke and Wedge, are at 44 and 46 respectively.  TL:DR all objective metrics show Rebels are underperforming at a tournament level which is, more often than not, also reflexive of a faction being of a lower power level than it's contemporaries.  Rebels are underperforming and it's not for want of trying based on how often they're showing up.  The fact that the highest performers are the ones with the least entries and most likely to be flukes is also not pointing in a positive direction.

 

You can either choose to believe that the entire rest of the world is crazy and that you are the only sane one or that the rest of the world might be onto something.  Absent evidence to the contrary, I always default to the rest of the community being correct and try to ascertain why my own observation may be flawed.  Only if I don't find a serious flaw, do I start seriously questioning whether or not the generally accepted wisdom may be wrong.

 

My personal opinion is that the Rebel's biggest and strongest archetype, 4 ship, is currently being done much better by Resistance (Finn and T-70s are performing quite well by comparison to the core pilots/ships for Rebel 4 ship).  They also don't really have a great ace list or a good swarm list.  The only list that Rebels can kind of do pretty good is fat Han + 1 or 2.  Even that archetype is only doing mediocre.  I was reluctant to put Rebels that far down on initial rankings because their 4 ship was so good last points change, but as the data started rolling in, it became clear that their 4 ship just wasn't doing it and they didn't have another archetype to fall back on.  If I had to tier factions based on performance right now:

 

Tier 1 Republic and Empire are the definite winners and chronic overperformers even with high turnouts

Tier 2 Resistance, Scum and CIS tend to consistently overperform or at least break even (although CIS has the lowest data points of this batch), but they rarely get the same numbers the Empire and Republic casually get

Tier 3 FO and Rebels are the 2 that are really struggling to consistently get a good cut rate at major events

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Period or viably?

104th Battalion Pilot (42)
Plasma Torpedoes (9)
Total: 51

Viably, to be sure.

That said, Proton Torpedo Ric Olie plus 7B Anakin enhanced by a 7th Fleet Gunner on a 104th ARC fits with regen Droids...  And there'd be a lot more room for toys if going with Obi or Mace with Heightened Perception (more to get Init 7 on the 2nd round than the first).

Juke ProTorp from Ric, or even baby-Anakin?  Just tell me this squad isn't hilarious:

  • Anakin Skywalker (N-1) (Juke, R2 Astromech, Fire Control System, Proton Torpedo) 67
  • Obi-Wan Kenobi (Heightened Perception, R2 Astromech, Delta 7B) 75
    • Or Mace Windu, to take Wolffe over Jag)
  • Jag (7th Fleet Gunner) 57

Potentially 4/4/3 dice attacks, all double-modded, and an Init 7 kill-shot for the second round.

Edited by theBitterFig

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54 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I took a Dash/AP-5 list out a couple weeks ago for kicks, just to see if the YT-2400 could ever win. Pulled a win against 3 Kimogilas and Torkil Mux. Then lost against a Sinker swarm.

My takeaway: Republic is really strong right now, so most Rebel mains have gone there. Rebels aren't in a bad spot but aren't as exciting at the moment.

That must be one thick dash.. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, battlestarbill said:

That must be one thick dash.. 

Trick Shot, PerCop, Bistan, Stealth Device, Rigged Cargo Chute.

Stay obstructed at R2-3 and you get two 5-dice attacks and defend with 5-6 dice with focus/evade.

Dash is crazy kinds of overpriced but it’s the closest I’ve come to viable. If you can take out 30-40% of the enemy list before you lose the stealth device, you’re probably good to solo the list. Problem is that R1 is basically instant death for him and it’s super tough to stay in the clouds.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Trick Shot, PerCop, Bistan, Stealth Device, Rigged Cargo Chute.

Stay obstructed at R2-3 and you get two 5-dice attacks and defend with 5-6 dice with focus/evade.

Dash is crazy kinds of overpriced but it’s the closest I’ve come to viable. If you can take out 30-40% of the enemy list before you lose the stealth device, you’re probably good to solo the list. Problem is that R1 is basically instant death for him and it’s super tough to stay in the clouds.

Huh, I’m going to have to try this lol. I actually just made a 2.0 take on dash earlier although mines not nearly as thick and has corran flying wingman 

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3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Stay obstructed at R2-3 and you get two 5-dice attacks and defend with 5-6 dice with focus/evade.

4-5 green dice. R2 obstructed=2base+1stealth+1 for obstructing obstacle = 4 green. At R3 with same modifiers it is 5.

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12 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 I hope I'm not reading this right. Undercosted? VTG is back where it should have stayed but the turrets are back to being too expensive for their effect... 

Depends... 

I think turrets have their cost baked into their slot (sadly). If you think about it this way, Dorsal gives you 2die or a 3die R1 in a different arc than you'd normally have your primary forward gun. 
How much would you normally pay for an extra 2die or 3 die attack say 30-40% of the time? Maul and Corran are paying up the nose like 9-10 points for that easily. 
VTG is kind of doing that, except it really is granting a whole other attack. And trust me a whole other attack is worth a lot more than say adding a 4th die. 7th fleet gunner is much worse than VTG (both in arc restrictions, and in power level). 

Also surprise, having a huge attack area is exceptionally strong. 

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10 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

4-5 green dice. R2 obstructed=2base+1stealth+1 for obstructing obstacle = 4 green. At R3 with same modifiers it is 5.

Maths. 😛

I originally posted it that way, but then edited it because I thought I was forgetting the Stealth device. Oh well

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On 8/23/2019 at 8:53 AM, Smikies02 said:

Further proving that the issue with the Rebel faction is the Rebel players.

Can't understand the value of spreading damage, and keeping ships on the board.

Really though, they are probably the most balanced. Their best archetype is beef, but they can play other types effectively. Maybe a bit of other factions do the other archetypes better is keeping their numbers down. Then again, they're definitely going to seem lower after they were everywhere last point update.

You do realize that almost Every popular rebel archetype since the beginning of the game has been based around spreading damage

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16 hours ago, ForrestGrump said:

Well the store popped an last minute min tournament

So I ran a list very similar to the original one i had posted

 

New Squadron

(55) Wedge Antilles [T-65 X-wing]
(0) Servomotor S-foils
(2) Predator
Points: 57

(47) Garven Dreis [T-65 X-wing]
(0) Servomotor S-foils
Points: 47

(43) Red Squadron Veteran [T-65 X-wing]
(0) Servomotor S-foils
(13) Proton Torpedoes
Points: 56

(36) Jake Farrell [RZ-1 A-wing]
(2) Predator
(1) Crack Shot
Points: 39

Total points: 199

 

It was a bad day. Because it was so last minute we only had 4 players.  3 rounds and I didn't want to bust out something new for it

 

So I played

Seperatists.  Resistance and first order

In that order.  Lost all 3 rounds

 

Vs the seperatists, it was a combination of me fighting something new for the first time.  And the dudes dice were HOT.  Only one attack did he not roll a minimum of hit, hit, crit.  It was terrible.  He dropped Jake on turn one with 2 ships shooting at range 3.  

 

Vs the resistance it was a very very narrow loss.  76 vs 71 points.  Ah well.  He played nunb, transport with leia, Finn in the pod and tallissan in the a wing.  Can't be too mad, game was close and the guy ended up 3-0

 

Vs first order it was kylo with hate, QuickDraw and the other init 5 silencer (blackout?)

Think I was just outpiloted this time. Killed QuickDraw and had both silencers on 2 hull and half points.  All I had left is wedge with one hull when time was called.

All in all it was a very frustrating day due to no fault of my opponents.  Not sure if it was just me not having enough experience (today was my very first tournament) or if this list was just not up to par.

 

But I learned a little about seperatists.  And souless one title and the impervium plating is just ridiculously gross for 10 points

 

Still not sure if the difficulty was more my relative inexperience.  Or if, as some of the other players were saying that rebels in general, or t65s in particular are in a bad place right now

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