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LordCola

Imperial Raddus

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10 minutes ago, Church14 said:

It’s really not more restrictive. Raddus takes up your commander, your idea takes up a slot and allows for a commander yet.

This was already a concern and I have do disagree, here was my previous response:

14 hours ago, LordCola said:

I don't actually think it is too much. At the and of the day this effect requires you bringing a 90 point ship. A ship that is often times already considered to be on the weak side. The Interdictor is utter garbage without the Experimental Retrofits and I also would not mid bumping the Advanced Hyperspace Disruptors upgrade up to being a double experimental retrofit upgrade meaning you have to bring a 90 point handicap into the game just to get this effect.

 

4 minutes ago, Church14 said:

You also have have no restrictions on displacing squadrons, which is a serious balancing factor for Raddus. At least locally, that’s a big way to prevent Raddus from just getting the perfect drop.

Are you sure you read my post?

18 hours ago, LordCola said:

[...] That ship cannot be deployed overlapping squadrons and cannot be the first ship to activate that round. [...]

 

14 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Let us examine your claim that the tokens on the table only moving distance 1 are the balancing factor. 

1) They will be immune to strategic as they functionally can’t be objective tokens. Your jump tokens being objective tokens would comically break certain objectives like fire lanes. So your opponent cannot affect them.

2) You will be bringing objectives that force or strongly encourage the fight being in one spot. Salvage Run and Contested Outpost require your opponent to come to a specific location or they piss away a LOT of points.  Congrats, 2/3rds of your objectives make it so even a single jump token is enough. Give me a bit and I’ll find a red objective that’s just as bad.

3) Have you tried setting out 2 tokens and just seeing if they can get into less than ideal spots for your opponent? Just put 2 Imp score tokens down on the map during your next game and have them try to set up a good jump spot. I almost guarantee you’ll get them in a good spot. I’d say at least in 3/4 of games you’ll do it.

As I said I do not cling to any specifics that I came up with. I honest to god believed that my restriction where tighter than Raddus' but I don't mind tightening them up further. At the end of the day I don't think the Empire is under powered and needs a buff. I just want a balanced translation of Raddus effect to the Empires side. I don't mind maybe saying that the Hyperspace tokens can be moved by Strategic or that they are completely stationary and can't be moved at all or that they can be attacked or even dropp the tokens altogether and go for a Raddus style effect where you have to bring ships in close (I just thought differentiating the imperial version from the rebel one would be interesting)

The specifics aren't important. The point I am trying to deliver is that dropping ships in later straight into the battle is (in my opinion) the most fun mechanic in the game and gating that behind one faction even though there are no thematic reasons for that is just not cool I think.

 

27 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I also have concerns from a design space issue. If you were to release that upgrade, then every ship or title that gives that slot has to be balanced against the fact that it allows you to warp jump an ISD or Starhawk essentially anywhere on the battlefield. 

You mean this slot that is dead since wave 4 that is very likely to never get any future upgrades? RitR has no additional Experimental Retrofit upgrades and all other canon ships with this technology have never even been pictured (in canon). Also all of those ships are rather small compared to the Interdictor and would be small ships in the game so they would certainly only come with one Experimental Retrofit slot so by bumping the Advanced Hyperspace Disruptors up to costing two Experimental Retrofit slots you prevent any future ships from using this upgrade (or just give Advanced Hyperspace Disruptors the medium ship only restriction). Also titles really are not a concern here. The Gravwell generators are not a technology that you could just refit onto a vessel. A ship has to build around that technology so a title that just adds that slot makes absolutely no sense. And lastly the the rebels can already drop the Starhawk with Raddus so that is not really a concern. So I don't think that this upgrade would limit the design space for the Experimental Retrofit slot but instead for the rest of the imperial ships but since the rebels can already drop a MC75 and a Hammerhead than this is also no concern since no one ship the empire has comes close to the burst damage that a double arc MC75 + Hammerhead can put out.

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1 hour ago, LordCola said:

[...] That ship cannot be deployed overlapping squadrons and cannot be the first ship to activate that round. [...]

Cool. I did miss that. That does help  

 

1 hour ago, LordCola said:

The specifics aren't important. The point I am trying to deliver is that dropping ships in later straight into the battle is (in my opinion) the most fun mechanic in the game and gating that behind one faction even though there are no thematic reasons for that is just not cool I think.

I also like the mechanic and wouldn’t mind more. But I’m leery of how it is applied as it’s an extremely strong mechanic. 

 

1 hour ago, LordCola said:

I just want a balanced translation of Raddus effect to the Empires side.

I guess this is probably my root sticking point. I want unique effects on both sides. At this moment, the unique effects are basically:

-Universal rerolls (Empire, Vader)

-Crit Fishing (Rebels, Dodonna)

-Spend/discard attacker’s defense tokens (Empire, Emperor)

-Living to end of turn even after death (Rebels, Rieekan)

-Performing a full second command (Empire, Piett and Thrawn)

-Experimental Retrofit slots (Empire)

-Beyond range 5 attacks (Empire, Onager)

-Starhawk upgrade slot that we think exists (Rebels)

 

I don’t want a lot of these overlapping as it makes the factions less distinct. 

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Just now, Church14 said:

I don’t want a lot of these overlapping as it makes the factions less distinct.

"Good guys, bad guys, made-up words..."

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"Let me learn you something big. It's all a machine, partner..."

Joke aside, you're not wrong. It would be especially weird to have opposing factions using the Raddus gimmick at once. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

"Good guys, bad guys, made-up words..."

tumblr_p5jsazZDkq1w83bt6o1_540.gif

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"Let me learn you something big. It's all a machine, partner..."

Joke aside, you're not wrong. It would be especially weird to have opposing factions using the Raddus gimmick at once. 

Just wait. The Darth Vader’s Devastatir reskin pack akin to the Chimaera pack will come out and he’ll get to pull a Rogue one. Except that he can overlap ships and squadrons. All squadrons overlapped die but do 1 hull damage each to the ISD. All ships overlapped are destroyed but do their remaining hull HP in damage to the ISD. 

Edited by Church14

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I also like the mechanic and wouldn’t mind more. But I’m leery of how it is applied as it’s an extremely strong mechanic

Oh it absolutely is which is why I am not clinging to my suggestion. I am not a game designer and I have no team of playtesters to balance my suggestion. So I am absolutely open to any balanced restrictions that would come with such an effect on the imperial side.

 

47 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I don’t want a lot of these overlapping as it makes the factions less distinct. 

I get that. But I think faction identity should be supported by the lore of the universe.

Like, I like Dodonnas effect. He totally leans into the whole "Rebellions are build on hope" by positively effecting a RNG component of the game, making it feel like luck is on the rebels side.

Vader on the other hand feels also appropriate. I can imagine him raging on the bridge destroying some consoles which would negatively effect the ships defense but instil fear in the gunners, making them better at their job.

 

But hiding a ship and dropping in reinforcements later really does not feel particularly rebels like. This is not a thing that is thematically tied to the rebels but a thing you would expect both factions to equally employ.

Edited by LordCola

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15 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Joke aside, you're not wrong. It would be especially weird to have opposing factions using the Raddus gimmick at once. 

I have to disagree 10 billion percent on that one. Dropping in your ships reactively to your opponents drop is soooooooo much fun.

 

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I’m gonna go with “nah.”  First of all, I find a flaw with your premise.  The rebel “equivalents” to experimental refits are not 1:1 comparisons.  I’m not gonna go through the list, but every single upgrade you listed as an equivalent is far more limited than the experimental refit.  

Ultimately it’s like comparing Raddus to Profundity.  They both let you do something (set a ship aside and deploy it later), but the title has many more restrictions.  You want a Profundity title? Knock your socks off.  Heck, make it an offensive retrofit for ISDs only instead of a title.  In fact, an ex-rack Raider 1 with ordnance experts popping out of an ISD is pretty terrifying, but not as devastating as an ISD showing up in the middle of your fleet.

As to the actual mechanics, Raddus has a very real weakness that your tokens don’t have.  Raddus’ ship can be blown off the table, and taking your hypothetical of an MC-75 Profundity (assuming ordnance cruiser) warping in and unloading a hammerhead with ex-racks means that a minimum of almost 150 points dies with him.  You specifically mention CR90s, which are awesome little ships, but not exactly the most sturdy things in the galaxy.  Ultimately the hypothetical rebel player in this scenario is hinging a minimum of 216 points, more than half of their fleet, on the survivability of a CR90.  And if you are going to stay out of harms way and drop the ships in from a safe distance, you should have just used a different admiral.

Your proposal has 0 risk.  You have an unkillable token that just flies around and eventually unloads a star destroyer in someone’s face.  Even if you tie the token to the fate of the Interdictor, that’s one of the hardiest ships in the game.

Beyond the mechanics of it, Raddus’ ability is quintessentially Rebel.  In fluff the rebellion has to rely on hit and run tactics because standing toe to toe with a fleet of star destroyers will end the rebellion fast.  This shows up in the game with rebels being, for lack of a better term, the “tricksy” faction.

Also, not trying to be a jerk, but if dice variance is to you a hallmark of a failure of a game, what games do you play that aren’t failures?  I don’t know if this is just an extension of euro v. Ameritrash board games, I’m genuinely interested what sort of tabletop games exist without the element of luck being injected.

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6 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

 

pYsiQiA.jpg

A similar but reduced effect was the request as I understood it. This meets that criteria. 

Ultimate deployment. Tick

Linked to a ship. Tick

Able to use to gain a positional advantage. Tick

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17 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I mean, you're not wrong, but it's a raider, so...

giphy.gif

I lol’d, sure, but in all honesty, a Raider that can redeploy (and since you are deploying again, my reading is that you can pick a different speed as well) not only lets you play the deployment game better than anyone else (deploy Corvus first, so your opponent has to deploy 1-2 times before your first deployment that matters) and lets you redeploy where it can do the most work.

Sure, it’s a Raider, so “the most work” isn’t exactly ISD level punch, but as primarily a rebel player the thought of being able to redeploy something like an ex-rack hammerhead would be amazing, especially since the Raider can go speed 4.

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Just now, FatherTurin said:

I lol’d, sure, but in all honesty, a Raider that can redeploy (and since you are deploying again, my reading is that you can pick a different speed as well) not only lets you play the deployment game better than anyone else (deploy Corvus first, so your opponent has to deploy 1-2 times before your first deployment that matters) and lets you redeploy where it can do the most work.

Sure, it’s a Raider, so “the most work” isn’t exactly ISD level punch, but as primarily a rebel player the thought of being able to redeploy something like an ex-rack hammerhead would be amazing, especially since the Raider can go speed 4.

Literal reenactment of me when an opponent redeploys the raider:
giphy.gif

I'm 110% not shook. 

Deployment game is important, and I do see the advantages, but honestly I have a great deal of bias against the raider. IMO it's a steaming pile of "slightly good at flak" garbage. In our local meta I've yet to see someone fly one successfully. Against a player of relatively equal skill, I ain't shook. lol

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21 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Literal reenactment of me when an opponent redeploys the raider:
giphy.gif

I'm 110% not shook. 

Deployment game is important, and I do see the advantages, but honestly I have a great deal of bias against the raider. IMO it's a steaming pile of "slightly good at flak" garbage. In our local meta I've yet to see someone fly one successfully. Against a player of relatively equal skill, I ain't shook. lol

Thumbs up for the 99 reference.

Of course now I’m imagining Peralta as a Rebel commander or officer.  Not a freaking clue as to his ability, more imagining him on the bridge of a ship as an SSD drops out of hyperspace.

”coolcoolcoolcoolcoolcoolcoolcoolcool.”

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3 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

Thumbs up for the 99 reference.

Of course now I’m imagining Peralta as a Rebel commander or officer.  Not a freaking clue as to his ability, more imagining him on the bridge of a ship as an SSD drops out of hyperspace.

”coolcoolcoolcoolcoolcoolcoolcoolcool.”

No doubt no doubt no doubt 

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13 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

No doubt no doubt no doubt 

Terry dose love his yogurt.

 

In response to the original post:

Nope!

Imps don't need it, should not have it. Now some kind of redeployment ability..... Yes. That would be more thematically matching for them, if you were to do something.

 

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There is that custom commander upgrade that lets you redeploy your flagship. Could do a Victory or whatever in RitR. (My group does narrative gaming mostly, so the custom commanders are going to be used more often than not)

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6 minutes ago, Noosh said:

Imps don't need it, should not have it. Now some kind of redeployment ability..... Yes. That would be more thematically matching for them, if you were to do something.

Why?

 

Ok @FatherTurin It baffels me how much I disagree with everything you said. So lets breakt it down point for point:

5 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

First of all, I find a flaw with your premise.  The rebel “equivalents” to experimental refits are not 1:1 comparisons.

That is not my premise. I actually say that exact same thing as you:

On 8/21/2019 at 6:53 PM, LordCola said:

The thing is that rebels now actually have access to almost all abilities that the Experimental Retrofit provides albeit with very different stipulations.

On 8/21/2019 at 6:53 PM, LordCola said:

Once again, all the rebel alternatives have very different requirements and conditions to use but the core effect is the same and this is what I would like for Raddus too. I don't want the Empire to just get a carbon copy of Admiral Raddus.

All I am saying is that the rebels have access to the same core ability (slowing down ships, moving obstacles, defensive rerolls) but with very different restrictions.

Next point:

5 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

I’m not gonna go through the list, but every single upgrade you listed as an equivalent is far more limited than the experimental refit.

I very much disagree. They have different limitations but not stronger limitations. Lets go through them:

G-8 Lets you slow an enemy down by one speed like Q7 Phylons. G-8s allow you to even slow the enemy down to speed 0 but only temporarily. Once the movement is over the speed returns to normal. Q7 let you flat out reduce the speed (but not to 0) allowing you to stack this effect over multiple turns which you cant do with the G-8s. Both have different advantages and disadvantages but none of them is strictly more restrictive than the other.

Grav Shift lets you move some obstacles like Ezra. Grav Shift allows you to move a whole bunch of obstacles but only at the beginning of the game (after deployment). Ezra on the other hand lets you move only a single obstacle but he can do so at any point in the game. Allowing you to be way more reactive.  Both have different advantages and disadvantages but none of them is strictly more restrictive than the other.

Targeting Scrambler and Lando both allow you to defensively reroll dice. Targeting Scramblers is an exhaust so it can be used every turn but only when defending at close range and it allows you to only reroll 4 dice. Lando is a discard but works on every distance against any amount of dice. Both have different advantages and disadvantages but none of them is strictly more restrictive than the other.

The conclusion: Both have different advantages and disadvantages but none of them is strictly more restrictive than the other.

 

Next point:

5 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

As to the actual mechanics, Raddus has a very real weakness that your tokens don’t have.  Raddus’ ship can be blown off the table, and taking your hypothetical of an MC-75 Profundity (assuming ordnance cruiser) warping in and unloading a hammerhead with ex-racks means that a minimum of almost 150 points dies with him.  You specifically mention CR90s, which are awesome little ships, but not exactly the most sturdy things in the galaxy.  Ultimately the hypothetical rebel player in this scenario is hinging a minimum of 216 points, more than half of their fleet, on the survivability of a CR90.  And if you are going to stay out of harms way and drop the ships in from a safe distance, you should have just used a different admiral.

Your proposal has 0 risk.  You have an unkillable token that just flies around and eventually unloads a star destroyer in someone’s face.  Even if you tie the token to the fate of the Interdictor, that’s one of the hardiest ships in the game.

As I said many times, I do not cling to any specifics that I came up with and other people have voiced the same concern as you and I am willing to concede on any point so long as the result is a balanced card. I have said before:

8 hours ago, LordCola said:

As I said I do not cling to any specifics that I came up with. I honest to god believed that my restriction where tighter than Raddus' but I don't mind tightening them up further. At the end of the day I don't think the Empire is under powered and needs a buff. I just want a balanced translation of Raddus effect to the Empires side. I don't mind maybe saying that the Hyperspace tokens can be moved by Strategic or that they are completely stationary and can't be moved at all or that they can be attacked or even dropp the tokens altogether and go for a Raddus style effect where you have to bring ships in close (I just thought differentiating the imperial version from the rebel one would be interesting)

The specifics aren't important. The point I am trying to deliver is that dropping ships in later straight into the battle is (in my opinion) the most fun mechanic in the game and gating that behind one faction even though there are no thematic reasons for that is just not cool I think.

 

Next:

5 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

Beyond the mechanics of it, Raddus’ ability is quintessentially Rebel.

Once again I have to 100% disagree on that. What I proposed is a literal 1 to 1 translation of a Strategie used by Thrawn (an imperial grand admiral) in the latest book Thrawn: Treason. He does not use an interdictor but instead something more akin to interdiction-mines (exactly like the tokens I proposed) and he does not pull an allied Star Destroyer out of hyperspace with the mines but instead a squad of Tie Defender that he previously hid before the battle. But those interdiction-mines are very capable of pulling any sized ship out of hyperspace (that is an important plot point in the first Thrawn book) and had he another ISD I am sure he would have dropped it out of hyperspace extremely close to the enemy ship.

I don't know what to say but it literally does not get more imperial than the exact strategies that we see the empire use.

and PS:

5 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

Also, not trying to be a jerk, but if dice variance is to you a hallmark of a failure of a game, what games do you play that aren’t failures?  I don’t know if this is just an extension of euro v. Ameritrash board games, I’m genuinely interested what sort of tabletop games exist without the element of luck being injected.

I don't play any other tabletop games. The only other game I really paly is StarCraft 2 which has exactly zero RNG.

Lastly I may have come over as aggressive or even hostile in my response but I wanna make clear that its all just in good fun 😊

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Posted (edited)

The way I see it, it plays into the Asymmetric play style of each faction.

The Empire is focused on reliability, uniformity and control with extensive re-rolls, deployment manipulation and Admirals that provide simple, solid bonuses.

Whereas the Rebellion is based on hope, guerrilla tactics and using everything at their disposal which is why you see less re-rolls but better dice on ships, more prevalent aces and Admirals that provide more odd and situational abilities like raddus with ambushing, Rieekan with ramming etc.

I feel that it fits the fluff better that the empire has the ability to perfect their deployment and dice through titles like Corvus and re-rolls through Vader, and that the Rebellion must risk it all through things like Raddus and Rieekan.

Obviously there are a few exceptions and this is just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

Edited by Atromix

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16 hours ago, LordCola said:

I have to disagree 10 billion percent on that one. Dropping in your ships reactively to your opponents drop is soooooooo much fun.

 

You can play Raddus to have some fun 😎

(my postings in this thread are now visible, it took some time)

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19 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

...

Beyond the mechanics of it, Raddus’ ability is quintessentially Rebel.  In fluff the rebellion has to rely on hit and run tactics because standing toe to toe with a fleet of star destroyers will end the rebellion fast.  This shows up in the game with rebels being, for lack of a better term, the “tricksy” faction.

...

Now I have very little knowldge of the the expanded universe, and Rogue One was the last movie that I watched. Having said that I can only think of one movie where you have a ship show up in the middle of the fighting and that is Rogue one, where Raddus has the ship inside his, but in the same movie you have the empire having a ship (Vader's ISD) drop out of hyperspace right in the middle of the fight. Would this not be the same but different?

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On 8/22/2019 at 5:41 AM, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Can you imagine how game breaking a Raddus SSD would be?  Heck, if noting else, just wait until Turn 3 or 4 to even drop it into play, when it's then mathematically impossible for the opponent to kill it in time...

Also risky as anything...

Once you've kitted up the ssd your not likely to field much more than a solo raider or arquitens to go with it.

Could leave you very vulnerable to being tabled if the opponent is able to catch the small ship before you make the drop

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2 hours ago, namdoolb said:

Also risky as anything...

Once you've kitted up the ssd your not likely to field much more than a solo raider or arquitens to go with it.

Could leave you very vulnerable to being tabled if the opponent is able to catch the small ship before you make the drop

Not really.

There's virtually no drawback to dropping at the top of Turn 1...  You get to place your SSD most of its length Forward of where it would normally be deploying at that point...  As long as you're forking two opponent ships, you'll have one dead to rights.

 

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Just now, Drasnighta said:

Not really.

There's virtually no drawback to dropping at the top of Turn 1...  You get to place your SSD most of its length Forward of where it would normally be deploying at that point...  As long as you're forking two opponent ships, you'll have one dead to rights.

 

Absolutely, but that's very different than waiting until turn 3 or 4, which is what @namdoolb was calling risky. 

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