Imperial Raddus

[LordCola 681]

TL;DR: FFG please give imperial Raddus.

 

Please let me preface this by saying that I understand that this is a highly asymmetric game but if you grand me a little of your attention I will try to argue why the Empire should get a Raddus too:

 

 

So I guess this is what rebel player have felt like about the Experimental Retrofit since the Interdictor was released. The thing is that rebels now actually have access to almost all abilities that the Experimental Retrofit provides albeit with very different stipulations. The G-8 Experimental Projectors let you slow an enemy down. Rebels can do that with Q7 Phylons. Targeting Scramblers is a defensive die reroll just like Lando and Grav Shift Rerout lets you move obstacles the same as Ezra Bridger. Once again, all the rebel alternatives have very different requirements and conditions to use but the core effect is the same and this is what I would like for Raddus too. I don't want the Empire to just get a carbon copy of Admiral Raddus. Instead I would like a way for the Empire to set aside some portion of their fleet and deploy that later at a strategically valuable location. (A way that is not a mediocre, rarely played objective)

 

But why should the empire get this effect in particular and not another one like Rieekan. Well first of all because it is hella fun. Recently at the German Nationals I played a game against a Raddus Profundity list that went first player and choose Hyperspace Assault from my objectives. So we stared with a MC75, a Hammerhead Corvette and my Gladiator not on the board and then we dropped ships left and right onto the board. I have been playing this game for almost 2 years now and I have to say that game was easily the most fun I ever had in Armada. Restricting such a fun mechanic to one faction is just not cool.

 

And secondly I really dislike Raddus. I dislike him because he does not grant a technology or equipment but instead he grands a strategy. Upgrade cards should bring enhancements to my ships and squads but strategies should be entirely up to me as the player. Hiding some portion of your fleet nearby, ready to jump in is just a normal strategy in the Star Wars universe. If you allow me to be a little hyperbolic, Raddus effect being gated behind a upgrade card feels a little like saying: “No, you can't flank your opponent. To do that you first need to equip the “flanking your opponent” upgrade card”. Like what?! That's stupid. Strategies/maneuvers should not be gated behind upgrade cards. I really hope the game will get a rework sometime soon where setting a portion of your fleet aside and deploying them later is just an in-build mechanic instead of an ability that requires one specific card. But until then I think both sides should have access to this mechanic.

 

 

So my suggestion would be to integrate this functionality into the Interdictor and make it a combination of Raddus and Hyperspace Assault. Give it a new Experimental Retrofit upgrade “• Advanced Hyperspace Disruptors” that says: Before deploying fleets, you may set aside 1 other friendly non huge ship. Then you places X Hyperspace tokens in the play area beyond distance Y of both players' edges.

New Rule: At the start of any round after the first round the player who placed the Hyperspace Tokens can deploy a ship that he set aside at distance 1 of one of his Hyperspace token or at distance 1 of a friendly ship equipped with Advanced Hyperspace Disruptors. That ship cannot be deployed overlapping squadrons and cannot be the first ship to activate that round. Then he removes all of his Hyperspace tokens.

If he does not deploy, he may move each Hyperspace token to within distance 1 of its current position.

 

Now this is just one possible way to implement this functionality for the Empire and I am not particularly clingy to it. I just want a fun, balanced and reliable (because you cant rely on your opponent picking Hyperspace assault) way do drop some ships out of Hyperspace into the heat of battle as the Empire.

 

 

PS: FFG if you need a ship to package this upgrade with, here are three canon imperial ships that have interdiction technology build in:

Immobilizer 418 cruiser

Detainer CC-2200

CC-7700 frigate

 

[spike2109 66]

Haha I enjoyed our fight, too. Your nasty Demo changed the game. 

I don't know if the empire with their big ships really needs a surprise strategy. But as an Interdictor buff that sounds really interesting. That ship is totally out of the current meta. I didn't saw one on the german nationals. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by spike2109
Typo

[Visovics 1,675]

48 minutes ago, LordCola said:

And secondly I really dislike Raddus. I dislike him because he does not grant a technology or equipment but instead he grands a strategy. Upgrade cards should bring enhancements to my ships and squads but strategies should be entirely up to me as the player. Hiding some portion of your fleet nearby, ready to jump in is just a normal strategy in the Star Wars universe. If you allow me to be a little hyperbolic, Raddus effect being gated behind a upgrade card feels a little like saying: “No, you can't flank your opponent. To do that you first need to equip the “flanking your opponent” upgrade card”. Like what?! That's stupid. Strategies/maneuvers should not be gated behind upgrade cards. I really hope the game will get a rework sometime soon where setting a portion of your fleet aside and deploying them later is just an in-build mechanic instead of an ability that requires one specific card. But until then I think both sides should have access to this mechanic.

Commanders have nearly always provided exclusive mechanics, it only makes sense even thematically that commanders provide strategies and game-styles, that’s why they are commanding the fleet

if the imperials were to get some tech that can mimick the hyperspace flank, then rebels should also claim their right to a mechanic similar to Motti, Thrawn, Sloane...

 

[geek19 6,564]

2 minutes ago, Visovics said:

Commanders have nearly always provided exclusive mechanics, it only makes sense even thematically that commanders provide strategies and game-styles, that’s why they are commanding the fleet

if the imperials were to get some tech that can mimick the hyperspace flank, then rebels should also claim their right to a mechanic similar to Motti, Thrawn, Sloane...

One Thrawn please. I've always wanted a haughty disdain for my underlings and the fact they don't know as much as i do. "For you see, General Antilles, iocane powder is native to Australia..." (Audience gasps)

[LordCola 681]

2 minutes ago, Visovics said:

Commanders have nearly always provided exclusive mechanics, it only makes sense even thematically that commanders provide strategies and game-styles, that’s why they are commanding the fleet

if the imperials were to get some tech that can mimick the hyperspace flank, then rebels should also claim their right to a mechanic similar to Motti, Thrawn, Sloane...

Well you see I think there is a difference. Hiding some part of your fleet and setting up an ambush is a strategy. Were as Sloan saying my Squadrons can now exhaust enemy defense tokens is not a strategy it is just a unique effect.

[Derpzilla88 1,291]

1 minute ago, LordCola said:

Well you see I think there is a difference. Hiding some part of your fleet and setting up an ambush is a strategy. Were as Sloan saying my Squadrons can now exhaust enemy defense tokens is not a strategy it is just a unique effect.

Arguably, the strategy of Sloan is to utilize mass non-Rogue ships and focusing on fighter control, rather than running Rogues or minimum fighter screens.

[The Jabbawookie 5,613]

”Apology accepted, Captain.  No really, I’m not supposed to choke people out over Skype anymore.”

[Visovics 1,675]

13 minutes ago, LordCola said:

Well you see I think there is a difference. Hiding some part of your fleet and setting up an ambush is a strategy. Were as Sloan saying my Squadrons can now exhaust enemy defense tokens is not a strategy it is just a unique effect.

But then it depends on what step you put it, equally putting a ship during the game rather than deployment is an unique effect, but to focus your fleet around a squadron screen to weaken ships’s defense possibilities for stronger attacks is a strategy

[Ginkapo 9,321]

[xero989 1,068]

While I think it would be fun and cool to have Interdictors pulling friendly ships out of hyperspace to ambush fleets, I dont think it would be good for game balance.

[Darth Sanguis 6,327]

I think it could be workshopped in.
 

Especially since the investment threshold starts at 90+ points. Once the upgrade's cost is factored in, you've basically sacrificed 1/4 of your points just to drop a ship in place.  If it came with the same "this ship cannot activate first" stipulation I could see it as a valid upgrade. 

I'd be interested in seeing some play testing before forming a more solid opinion but considering the costs and taking some of the key aspects of Raddus' card into consideration I don't think it's game breaking and it could be a fun house rule upgrade. 


(maybe make it consume 2 experimental slots? Forcing the less offensive suppression refit with no other gravity effects?)

Edited August 21, 2019 by Darth Sanguis

[Drasnighta 26,833]

Give me an actual experimental slot to go with they fact they were to offset Fleet commands. 

 

Then well I’ll talk FLEET WIDE REROLLS for the Rebels a bit.... 

 

Theres plenty of things that fall under “faction identity “. 

 

AvengerBT doesn’t need perfect positioning - it should have to work for it.  

[Church14 2,495]

While I love the idea of tractor beams bringing ships out of hyperspace (thank you Thrawn books), I would add another stipulation: The interdictor needs to be near (distance 1–4?) one of the tokens to bring the ship in.

 

Without that stipulation, you’ve just handed Imperials the option to drop an ISD anywhere on the map at any angle. That’s too strong. Raddus has serious limits that you have to work around and your idea should too. 

[Derpzilla88 1,291]

I think it shouldn't be overlooked that the OP is suggesting giving the Imperials Raddus's ability in addition to whatever ability their admiral is giving.

Seems a bit much, even with the slight changes suggested.

[The Jabbawookie 5,613]

What if you had to drop at zero?

And yeah, it should at least be the admiral.  Not that I’m saying Imps need it.

[TallGiraffe 3,447]

Can I have a demolisher title but for the Liberty then?

[LordCola 681]

3 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Especially since the investment threshold starts at 90+ points. Once the upgrade's cost is factored in, you've basically sacrificed 1/4 of your points just to drop a ship in place.  If it came with the same "this ship cannot activate first" stipulation I could see it as a valid upgrade. 

My suggestion has the cannot activate first stipulation.

5 hours ago, LordCola said:

That ship cannot be deployed overlapping squadrons and cannot be the first ship to activate that round.

 

 

3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Then well I’ll talk FLEET WIDE REROLLS for the Rebels a bit.... 

Actually I would love that. (I assume you mean something like Commander Vader)(of course at an adequate price point) I personally absolutely hate randomness in games (I would love a version of this game that completely removes all randomness. Dice replaced by flat damage numbers, damage deck mechanic replaced with something different etc...) The rebels have in general a harder time to get dice mitigation onto their ships. They are much more reliant on luck. This is the only reason why I don't play rebels. It just feels terrible. If you can loose a game to random chance instead of player skill than in my opinion that game is (at least in part a failure and) fundamentally flawed. Losses to random chance never feel fun in games. So I would absolutely welcome better ways to get rerolls for rebels.

3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

AvengerBT doesn’t need perfect positioning - it should have to work for it.  

I get what you are saying but I think that Raddus Profundity is actually a stronger combination than a dropped in BT Avenger. Now this sound crazy but hear me out. In said game at the German Nationals my opponent dropped a Profundity with double arc and a torpedo Hammerhead onto my Motti ECM ISD. Those two ships completely alone destroyed my Motti ECM ISD that was completely undamaged before in just one turn. My ISD didn't even activate that turn. Turn stared, my Motti ECM ISD is still on full health and shields. First activation was the Hammerhead with E Racks. Second activation was my Demo. Third activation was his MC75 and my Motti ECM ISD was just gone. A BT Avenger can't do that to another Motti ECM ISD even with perfect positioning. So I don't think dropping a BT Avenger is the game-breaking combo that would make my suggestion to overpowerd.

 

 

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

While I love the idea of tractor beams bringing ships out of hyperspace (thank you Thrawn books)

I don't think that ever happens in a Thrawn book. Ships are always pulled out of hyperspace using interdiction technology not tractor beams.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

I would add another stipulation: The interdictor needs to be near (distance 1–4?) one of the tokens to bring the ship in.

As I said I don't cling to my suggestion. I would welcome any modification to my suggestion that would allow it to become reality.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

Without that stipulation, you’ve just handed Imperials the option to drop an ISD anywhere on the map at any angle. That’s too strong. Raddus has serious limits that you have to work around and your idea should too.

Actually I think my suggestion is way more restrictive than Raddus' condition. My tokens can only move distance 1 per turn. Have you seen 2 or 3 CR-90s sometimes even with Engine Techs. They can be anywhere on the map. Also I think the strength of Advanced Hyperspace Disruptors would come down to how many Hyperspace Tokens you can deploy which I intentionally left open. It could be as low as a single token and you have to deploy them before fleets are deployed so in the worst case Szenario that token might be so far away from the enemy fleet hat it could never come into play. My initial guess though was that two tokens would probably be a good number.

 

 

2 hours ago, Derpzilla88 said:

I think it shouldn't be overlooked that the OP is suggesting giving the Imperials Raddus's ability in addition to whatever ability their admiral is giving.

Seems a bit much, even with the slight changes suggested.

 

2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

And yeah, it should at least be the admiral.

I don't actually think it is too much. At the and of the day this effect requires you bringing a 90 point ship. A ship that is often times already considered to be on the weak side. The Interdictor is utter garbage without the Experimental Retrofits and I also would not mid bumping the Advanced Hyperspace Disruptors upgrade up to being a double experimental retrofit upgrade meaning you have to bring a 90 point handicap into the game just to get this effect.

Edited August 21, 2019 by LordCola

[LordCola 681]

19 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Can I have a demolisher title but for the Liberty then?

Instead of giving the Liberty the Demo title I thing we should maybe rather get rid of the Demolisher title all together. But I hope that the Salvo tokens will have to make Demos think twice before they attack.

[xanderf 6,789]

Imperials can take Hyperspace Assault, same as anyone, and with Demolisher that's a pretty horrific option anyway.

Indeed, Hyperspace Assault alongside Surprise Attack when you have a Demolisher and Interdictor equipped with G7-X means you are always going to be playing your blue objective in every match, which can be its own kind of handy...

[TallGiraffe 3,447]

Let’s make a weird Armada where we swap all the admirals. 

[Muelmuel 774]

How bout this ability: "You may set aside up to 2 small or medium ships. At the end of any round, you may deploy up to 2 ships. Each ship's base must be touching any edge of the play area except the opponent's starting edge."

OR

"During any round, you may pass your activation to deploy a ship, with it's base touching any edge of the play area except the opponent's starting edge. It counts as activated for that round"

The biggest issue imo is preventing opportunity for a hyperspacing demo to drop in and rampage with impunity. With this ability it could favour mediums as well as long range flankers instead of brawlers, to give a different playstyle from MC75 Raddus. You could bait your opponent (like a trap) with your current forces and then drop some flankers along the respective edge to pincer. It also counters Solar Corona as a commonly taken objective

 

On another note: hmm StarHawk Raddus sounds fun

Edited August 22, 2019 by Muelmuel

[AllWingsStandyingBy 4,660]

Can you imagine how game breaking a Raddus SSD would be?  Heck, if noting else, just wait until Turn 3 or 4 to even drop it into play, when it's then mathematically impossible for the opponent to kill it in time...

[spike2109 66]

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Can you imagine how game breaking a Raddus SSD would be?  Heck, if noting else, just wait until Turn 3 or 4 to even drop it into play, when it's then mathematically impossible for the opponent to kill it in time...

Thats why ha makes the proposal with "a ship which is not huge". You can even handle it like Profundity with "a ship that command level ist not higher than 2".

[LordCola 681]

3 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Can you imagine how game breaking a Raddus SSD would be?  Heck, if noting else, just wait until Turn 3 or 4 to even drop it into play, when it's then mathematically impossible for the opponent to kill it in time...

That is why I already build this restriction into my suggestion 

15 hours ago, LordCola said:

Before deploying fleets, you may set aside 1 other friendly non huge ship.

 

[Church14 2,495]

13 hours ago, LordCola said:

Actually I think my suggestion is way more restrictive than Raddus' condition. My tokens can only move distance 1 per turn. Have you seen 2 or 3 CR-90s sometimes even with Engine Techs. They can be anywhere on the map. Also I think the strength of Advanced Hyperspace Disruptors would come down to how many Hyperspace Tokens you can deploy which I intentionally left open. It could be as low as a single token and you have to deploy them before fleets are deployed so in the worst case Szenario that token might be so far away from the enemy fleet hat it could never come into play. My initial guess though was that two tokens would probably be a good number.

It’s really not more restrictive. Raddus takes up your commander, your idea takes up a slot and allows for a commander yet. Raddus forces you to bring your ships into harms way and forces you to bring them in close if you want that kidney-punch drop. Your idea just lets you get that.

 

You also have have no restrictions on displacing squadrons, which is a serious balancing factor for Raddus. At least locally, that’s a big way to prevent Raddus from just getting the perfect drop.

 

Let us examine your claim that the tokens on the table only moving distance 1 are the balancing factor. 

1) They will be immune to strategic as they functionally can’t be objective tokens. Your jump tokens being objective tokens would comically break certain objectives like fire lanes. So your opponent cannot affect them.

2) You will be bringing objectives that force or strongly encourage the fight being in one spot. Salvage Run and Contested Outpost require your opponent to come to a specific location or they piss away a LOT of points.  Congrats, 2/3rds of your objectives make it so even a single jump token is enough. Give me a bit and I’ll find a red objective that’s just as bad.

3) Have you tried setting out 2 tokens and just seeing if they can get into less than ideal spots for your opponent? Just put 2 Imp score tokens down on the map during your next game and have them try to set up a good jump spot. I almost guarantee you’ll get them in a good spot. I’d say at least in 3/4 of games you’ll do it.

 

So (to me at least), the jump tokens are less restrictive because they don’t require you to endanger any of your own, they can’t be countered, and you can choose objectives that weight the fight location in your favor.

 

I also have concerns from a design space issue. If you were to release that upgrade, then every ship or title that gives that slot has to be balanced against the fact that it allows you to warp jump an ISD or Starhawk essentially anywhere on the battlefield.