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EVIL INC

What If- First Order were next

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1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

That's what he said. It would be preposterously good. Even if they were just Stormtroopers without Precise but with that ability, they would probably be 2-3 points more per model.

yup, I was thinking easily 52 for the base unit. I was using the stuff found in the link above. remove cumbersome from the cannon, remove inspire from Phasma, make Kylo a commander, give the stormtroopers 1 black die instead of 2 white dice (statistically slightly worse, more consistent with less variance), remove the training slot, give the flame thrower "Reduce your maximum speed by 1" and fix force stasis to give immobilize and suppression tokens after the activation ended. This would make them very consistent, but it would be after the rally step meaning they would be suppressed already, so you would have to use compel to get any true efficiency out of it. I do not think this is overpowered, I think it makes sense for these highly trained soldiers. 

Edit: 2 white vs 1 black: 

Heavy Cover: 2.214 

No Cover:  3.9982  

these numbers are without defense dice, but you can do that one. it is slightly higher than the z-6 rebel trooper squad in terms of damage output and slightly lower than a shoretrooper squad with the T-21b

Edited by Cleto0
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38 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

yup, I was thinking easily 52 for the base unit. I was using the stuff found in the link above. remove cumbersome from the cannon, remove inspire from Phasma, make Kylo a commander, give the stormtroopers 1 black die instead of 2 white dice (statistically slightly worse, more consistent with less variance), remove the training slot, give the flame thrower "Reduce your maximum speed by 1" and fix force stasis to give immobilize and suppression tokens after the activation ended. This would make them very consistent, but it would be after the rally step meaning they would be suppressed already, so you would have to use compel to get any true efficiency out of it. I do not think this is overpowered, I think it makes sense for these highly trained soldiers. 

Edit: 2 white vs 1 black: 

Heavy Cover: 2.214 

No Cover:  3.9982  

these numbers are without defense dice, but you can do that one. it is slightly higher than the z-6 rebel trooper squad in terms of damage output and slightly lower than a shoretrooper squad with the T-21b

I like the ability a lot more if it happens after the rally step, but they still might need to be 56 points. Also, a range one weapon that reduced the unit speed to 1 on a unit that doesn't have any ability to move and attack is totally worthless. People would be fine just taking it out of the box and putting it straight into the trash. Even if it was free I wouldn't take it.

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40 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

This would make them very consistent, but it would be after the rally step meaning they would be suppressed already, so you would have to use compel to get any true efficiency out of it. I do not think this is overpowered, I think it makes sense for these highly trained soldiers. 

Here's the problem: Dauntless and Compel both give you a suppression when you are already suppressed, pushing the unit closer to panic. This removes a suppression instead for a similar effect. Plus, it stacks with Compel to allow a suppressed unit to perform both a move and an aim for free. That is ridiculously, ridiculously good. 

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On 11/28/2019 at 9:07 PM, Uchidan1 said:

 

I came here to post this exact link. I am glad you guys think this is cool! 

Also, to clear things up this Kylo is Force Awaken's Kylo Ren...I would think that Supreme Leader Kylo would be a commander, which is why I made him an Operative in this set. 

I didn't know the rule of 4x whatever the number is. I am going to fix that. FO Stormstroopers are 48 now. 

https://cleverclanker.video.blog/2019/11/28/rise-of-the-first-order/

Overall I like it.

Regarding Phasma, I would give her an ability similar to Esteemed Leader to represent her skill to survive and how at the end, she only thinks about herself.

Regarding Kylo Ren, I would remove Jedi Hunter (Idon't think he fought against a lot of Force User) and Jump 1 (we never see him jumping around, he's really grounded in his fighting style). I would give him Surge to Crit (maybe changing his red melee die for a black one, similar to Luke)  and a range ability (or attack) that can immobilise an opponent.

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1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

I like the ability a lot more if it happens after the rally step, but they still might need to be 56 points. Also, a range one weapon that reduced the unit speed to 1 on a unit that doesn't have any ability to move and attack is totally worthless. People would be fine just taking it out of the box and putting it straight into the trash. Even if it was free I wouldn't take it.

I'll give you speed 2 flame thrower, but the rest of it makes sense. The ability always was after the rally step when I planned it. 

55 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Here's the problem: Dauntless and Compel both give you a suppression when you are already suppressed, pushing the unit closer to panic. This removes a suppression instead for a similar effect. Plus, it stacks with Compel to allow a suppressed unit to perform both a move and an aim for free. That is ridiculously, ridiculously good. 

Yes, that was the design. Let me read you what I wrote earlier

19 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

What about this for the FO Stormtrooper keyword, it works well with Compel on Phasma:

Programmed since birth: After this unit performs their rally step, they may spend 1 suppression token to gain 1 aim or surge token.

So, they rally, are suppressed and are range of compel. they take a  suppression and perform a move. They can remove 1 to gain an aim token/surge and then perform another action, most likely a move or attack. 3 actions and suppression management. Lets say you run outside of the compel bubble. Suddenly you are suppressed and can only do 1 action + they can get an aim or surge while getting rid of a suppression. This gives them good efficiency, don't get me wrong, but it isn't "ridiculously good". The ability emphasizes their hardcore military training and this ability can ONLY trigger if they have suppression after the rally step, which means they are suppressed or panicked, so the ability is good, but it does not break the unit. It forces tactical play and it gives good theme to the unit.

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10 hours ago, Red Castle said:

Overall I like it.

Regarding Phasma, I would give her an ability similar to Esteemed Leader to represent her skill to survive and how at the end, she only thinks about herself.

Regarding Kylo Ren, I would remove Jedi Hunter (Idon't think he fought against a lot of Force User) and Jump 1 (we never see him jumping around, he's really grounded in his fighting style). I would give him Surge to Crit (maybe changing his red melee die for a black one, similar to Luke)  and a range ability (or attack) that can immobilise an opponent.

Thank you!

Phasma's two pip is supposed to be her selfish card, similar to Grievous's. I didn't want to make her too selfish though because she is still a very loyal captain in the First Order, and the Stormies need her abilities. 

Kylo Ren has Jedi Hunter for thematic reasons, he is hunting Luke Skywalker. Jump 1 seems pretty standard for Force Users of his caliber, just because we haven't seen him do it, we know Kylo Ren could. 

The reason Kylo is a Operative instead of a Commander is because Supreme Leader Kylo would be a commander, and would overall be better than his operative version which is based off of his Force Awakens appearance and skill set. He does have an immobilize for Force Stasis which does now happen after the attacking unit's activation. 

 

11 hours ago, Lochlan said:

Here's the problem: Dauntless and Compel both give you a suppression when you are already suppressed, pushing the unit closer to panic. This removes a suppression instead for a similar effect. Plus, it stacks with Compel to allow a suppressed unit to perform both a move and an aim for free. That is ridiculously, ridiculously good. 

 I have to agree, getting rid of a suppression to get a free aim or surge token is really really good. Too good for the "core unit" of stormtroopers for the first order. This would be something to consider on Sith Troopers, or the "Phase II" equivalent for the FO, or some other special unit, no way an ability this good should be on the core basic FO trooper. Just my two cents. 

Edited by Uchidan1

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11 hours ago, Uchidan1 said:

I have to agree, getting rid of a suppression to get a free aim or surge token is really really good.

I get you all can just say that without a single game behind it and with no real reasoning. right now, you guys are saying "That is ridiculously, ridiculously good." "no way an ability this good should be on the core basic FO trooper. Just my two cents" What does that mean? I get the "my two cents" part, which is personal opinion which isn't very helpful when developing a game piece. The other piece, what is too good about the ability? 

for @Lochlan Doesn't this make sense? 

21 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

So, they rally, are suppressed and are range of compel. they take a  suppression and perform a move. They can remove 1 to gain an aim token/surge and then perform another action, most likely a move or attack. 3 actions and suppression management. Lets say you run outside of the compel bubble. Suddenly you are suppressed and can only do 1 action + they can get an aim or surge while getting rid of a suppression. This gives them good efficiency, don't get me wrong, but it isn't "ridiculously good". The ability emphasizes their hardcore military training and this ability can ONLY trigger if they have suppression after the rally step, which means they are suppressed or panicked, so the ability is good, but it does not break the unit. It forces tactical play and it gives good theme to the unit.

 

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25 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

I get you all can just say that without a single game behind it and with no real reasoning. right now, you guys are saying "That is ridiculously, ridiculously good." "no way an ability this good should be on the core basic FO trooper. Just my two cents" What does that mean? I get the "my two cents" part, which is personal opinion which isn't very helpful when developing a game piece. The other piece, what is too good about the ability? 

for @Lochlan Doesn't this make sense? 

 

The reasoning is being given to you, you just don't like it. That ability gives them both suppression control and a free token. That is strong. Strong isn't bad, it just needs to priced appropriately. Most abilities give suppression and then let you do cool stuff, not take it away AND do cool stuff. Again, the ability itself is not a huge issue to me. He also seems to be of the opinion that such a strong ability shouldn't be on a Corps unit, which I disagree with (especially given that P2 Clones get a free surge token every round). It just really seems that you are underestimating just how good this ability is.

Edited by arnoldrew

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28 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

I get you all can just say that without a single game behind it and with no real reasoning. right now, you guys are saying "That is ridiculously, ridiculously good." "no way an ability this good should be on the core basic FO trooper. Just my two cents" What does that mean? I get the "my two cents" part, which is personal opinion which isn't very helpful when developing a game piece. The other piece, what is too good about the ability? 

for @Lochlan Doesn't this make sense? 

 

Basically what @arnoldrew said. This combo essentially means suppression is a huge benefit to them with essentially no downsides. They get the cover bonus, and instead of only getting one action, they get to perform three actions. Yes, they have to be within range of Compel, but Range 2 isn't particularly limiting. Yes, they have to have a suppression after rallying to trigger it, but once they are in combat that should happen fairly regularly. This combo is parsecs better than the current best suppression control upgrade, Strict Orders, which is already really good.

This is something I could see on a Death Troopers level unit, something hyper-elite. Perhaps Sith Troopers like @Uchidan1 suggested. For a Corps unit, I think there are a few good existing options to make them difficult to suppress, such as Disciplined (which @Uchidan1 gave them), Indomitable, or just Courage 2.

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Fair Enough, I guess the combo of both suppression removal and gaining a token is too good. What if it was "after your rally step if you have a suppression token you may either remove 1 suppression token or gain an aim or surge token." core part of the ability stays the same, but it is more balanced

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