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panchovaras

Purge Oponent's cards from my archives

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There are some cards like Collector Worm or Sample Collection that allows me to archive cards from my opponent. All those cards says "If that creature leaves your archives, put it in its owner’s hand instead".
But other cards like Yzphyz Knowdrone or Destructive Analysis allows me to Purge cards from my archives to do something.

If I want to Purge one of my opponent's card that are in my archives: Is the card Purged or goes back to my opponent's hand?

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I have one of those combos in a deck, I ruled that the card is purged. My logic is that it's not just being removed from the archive, it's straight up being removed form the game! I can see it being ruled the other way, but I couldn't find any other topics on it.

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3 hours ago, ilikesanta said:

I have one of those combos in a deck, I ruled that the card is purged. My logic is that it's not just being removed from the archive, it's straight up being removed form the game! I can see it being ruled the other way, but I couldn't find any other topics on it.

I can understand that, and I can't remember where the discussions have been had to help out. The best I can do is point to the FAQ's Dysania ruling where they ruled that if your opponent has archived one of your cards with "Sample Collection" and you play Dysania, when you would discard your card from their archive Sample Collection creates a replacement effect that over-rides Dysania, and the card goes back to your hand instead of being discarded. In Dysania's case, this also means you don't get aember for your card leaving their archive.

From there if you have archived an opponent's card with sample collection (or collector worm) and you now are playing a card (Destructive Analysis, Yzphyz Knowdrone) that lets you purge your opponent's card from your archive it is a reasonable extension of that FAQ ruling to say that the card being purged gets a replacement effect that over-rides the card purging it.

I'll grant that it is sloppy. It is an area of the rules that could use some major revising and better wording, but that's what we have.

However, we have seen crazier rulings before. Feel free to submit a rules submission form to get an official answer. They just might flip-flop on it. Nothing surprises me in this game anymore.

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Here is the FAQ from page 26 in the rulebook about Dysania:

 

Quote

 

My opponent puts two of my creatures into their archives using the card Sample Collection (CoTA 175). On my next turn I play the card Dysania (CoTA 141). What happens?

Playing the Dysania will cause each of your opponent’s archived cards to be discarded, however since the Sample Collection states that when these creatures leave the archives they are put into their owner’s hand instead these cards are returned to your hand. Since these cards were not discarded by Dysania’s effect, you will not gain any Æmber from the resolution of that effect.

 

Here's the text on Dysania:

Quote

Play: Your opponent discards each of their archived cards. You gain 1aember-8c75413114aa06d01a8f2f79d086a574d80420811cb0919f309226d54909d15e.png for each card discarded this way.

And Sample Collection:

Quote

Play: Put an enemy creature into your archives for each key your opponent has forged. If any of these creatures leave your archives, they are put into their owner’s hand instead.

And Yzphyz Knowdrone:

Quote

Play: Archive a card. You may purge an archived card to stun a creature.

From the FAQ, I think you're right that the card does not get purged and instead goes into the owner's hand.  But does the creature targeted by Yzphyz Knowdrone get stunned?  The wording is a little different than Dysania, so the ruling might be different as well.  For what it's worth, I've been playing it as return the card to owner's hand and stun the creature.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, robohobbit said:

From the FAQ, I think you're right that the card does not get purged and instead goes into the owner's hand.  But does the creature targeted by Yzphyz Knowdrone get stunned?  The wording is a little different than Dysania, so the ruling might be different as well.  For what it's worth, I've been playing it as return the card to owner's hand and stun the creature.

what the difference? 
You may purge to stun. If card is not purged, there is no stun.

 

16 hours ago, Simplegarak said:

I'm still wondering if project ZYX allows you to play an opponent's card in your archive or your card in an opponent's archive.

By current ruling I guess no, you cant play opponent card from your archive. Because card leaves archives if you want to play it, so text on sample collection takes precedence. 

Edited by AleksandrShepelev

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19 hours ago, Simplegarak said:

I'm still wondering if project ZYX allows you to play an opponent's card in your archive or your card in an opponent's archive.

Agree with the above comment, and I'll add that I would rule you could play your card even if it was in your opponent's archive. Doesn't specify which archive ;).

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6 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

Agree with the above comment, and I'll add that I would rule you could play your card even if it was in your opponent's archive. Doesn't specify which archive ;).

The wording on Project Z.Y.X. specifies you have to play one of your archived cards.

Quote

Fight/Reap: You may play one of your archived cards as if it were in your hand and in the active house.

A card you own that is in your opponent's archives is your opponent's archived card.  Like in the Sample Collection & Dysania example from the FAQ, Dysania causes your opponent to discard their archived cards (which may be cards that you own).  So "your archived cards" specifically means the cards in your own archive, not cards you own that are in an opponent's archive.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, robohobbit said:

The wording on Project Z.Y.X. specifies you have to play one of your archived cards.

A card you own that is in your opponent's archives is your opponent's archived card.  Like in the Sample Collection & Dysania example from the FAQ, Dysania causes your opponent to discard their archived cards (which may be cards that you own).  So "your archived cards" specifically means the cards in your own archive, not cards you own that are in an opponent's archive.

That's a fair point, and I shouldn't dispute it since it is using the same logic I did earlier in the thread. Just points out another area where the rules are sloppy and need clarification. We shouldn't be having to infer rulings based on other rulings in similar yet different circumstances.

Edited by TheSpitfired

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On 8/22/2019 at 11:35 AM, TheSpitfired said:

That's a fair point, and I shouldn't dispute it since it is using the same logic I did earlier in the thread. Just points out another area where the rules are sloppy and need clarification. We shouldn't be having to infer rulings based on other rulings in similar yet different circumstances.

Yeah, would be nice if the glossary was expanded to cover such things.

To continue the though, Project allows you to play a card from your archive. We infer from the dysania ruling that when a card leaves, it bounces back to owner's hand. Fine, if I try to play an opponent's creature, do I get its play text before it goes back to owner's hand?

Although, now I want to find a deck where you can steal an opposing creature (make sure they're a knight), play epic quest to archive them, then project it back out for permanent ownership until it dies. According to the compendium there's at least 4... (mindlock, epic, zyx)

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Simplegarak said:

Fine, if I try to play an opponent's creature, do I get its play text before it goes back to owner's hand?

 

nope. Creature should be in play (so, it means on board) to resolve play effect. opponents creature will not be on board, it goes directly to opponent hand. 
 

 

10 hours ago, Simplegarak said:

Although, now I want to find a deck where you can steal an opposing creature (make sure they're a knight), play epic quest to archive them

it will go to owner (not controller) archive. If card leaves play it goes to owner's appropriate out-of-play area unless card explicitly states otherwise. Archive is out-of-play area.

Edited by AleksandrShepelev

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On 8/26/2019 at 12:53 PM, Simplegarak said:

Yeah, would be nice if the glossary was expanded to cover such things.

To continue the though, Project allows you to play a card from your archive. We infer from the dysania ruling that when a card leaves, it bounces back to owner's hand. Fine, if I try to play an opponent's creature, do I get its play text before it goes back to owner's hand?

Although, now I want to find a deck where you can steal an opposing creature (make sure they're a knight), play epic quest to archive them, then project it back out for permanent ownership until it dies. According to the compendium there's at least 4... (mindlock, epic, zyx)

This is one of the reasons that I was pushing for a Keyforge Comprehensive Rulebook: to set the definitions of terms to the point where 90% or more of judges will come to the same ruling (and the remaining 10% can be educated relatively quickly).

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