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Amanal

This game is great but getting new players is hard...

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I think this is one of the best card games you can get, the dice makes each card "imperfect", so unlike Magic or Keyforge where you can look at your hand and spot the best play with Destiny you more often than not have to take what you get. This makes the game far more enjoyable as a "puzzle" every turn you have something new to solve with the cards and dice you have.

Sadly though the game is hard to grow, new players are cherished, and I think we sometimes are so excited to have new players that we are so nice we scare them off. 

Many play groups seem to be hitting the 4-6 player mark and I think this puts pressure on those players. The play group being so small means you are playing the same people over and over with the same decks. Then the cost of the new sets just adds to this pressure because you aren't getting value for the money your spending. It only takes one player from a small group to quit and the whole group reaches that tipping point. In some regards if you are here reading this you have out done at least one other group that has given up, if not more.

But I don't think it is the games fault, it is the sales model, we don't have enough players to support a blind buy. Singles are becoming harder to find and that too is making the CCG model harder to interest players. I just don't think we can do this for much longer. Mind you I think the idea of an LCG is also problematic because that to drives away players over time and creates a barrier to entry. The game evolves far too slowly and if you start late you still have a huge cost to catch up. Overall I think both the CCG and LCG model will slowly strangle this game.

I would look at making the next set the last of the blind buys and moving forwards produce box sets that have one of each card. Alternatively make a box of 2 of each non-dice card and a box of 2 of each dice card, that would allow people to buy 4 copies of the non-dice cards and make more decks where the cards overlap in their decks. Not only would this make the game more friendly to players, it will also make the production easier for FFG and the distribution easier. I went to the Sydney GQ and any drafts that were run saw a table full of common and rare cards left on the table, those useless cards still have to be made and distributed by FFG, so cutting down on the waste cuts down on their end of the supply problems.

I would truly enjoy myself playing this game in 5 years time, but I honestly think something has to give to make it have a chance.

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Something definitely has to give, but I don't know if fixed distribution is the answer. You pinpointed one of the main problems with this sentence:

28 minutes ago, Amanal said:

I went to the Sydney GQ and any drafts that were run saw a table full of common and rare cards left on the table, those useless cards still have to be made and distributed by FFG, so cutting down on the waste cuts down on their end of the supply problems.

Regardless of being a blind buy or fixed distro model, there is a disproportionate number of useless cards in Destiny. The rare/legendary disparity in playability is downright awful. The competitive game is too fast for over half the cards that they print. It happens in every game, but Destiny is among the worst at it. I don't think the design team has a handle on card balance and because of that, there are really very few deck archtypes that are viable in any given meta. I feel they then overcompensate in the next set and it swings an entirely different way. There's never a healthy balance between support, aggro, mill, control and combo. The closest they came was right after Snoke errata.

The other big issue is the organized play support. If you're going blind buy, you need to support the game in a way that drives a secondary market. Secondary markets drive the primary market. Without strong organized play and that value it creates for good rares and uncommons, then the game isn't ever going to be worth (as in card value, not the value of the fun it brings you) what you put into it. Add in that there's no format anyone plays that really supports an infinite card pool and that gets even worse. In Magic, a player can realistically cash out at any point for about 75% what they put into it. More, if they bought low/sold high or were lucky with pulls and won some tourney prizes. If they sit on the cards for a decade, that would even get better. I have a friend who wants to cash out of Destiny (don't we all, which I think is the point of this thread) and he'd be lucky to get 50%.

To me, it all boils down to FFG's inability to run a truly large scale competitive game. They can't balance it for a competitive meta. They can't run an OP that makes people want to show up and play every Friday night. Somewhere they either lost the game or just gave up. The game is about the imperfection of the dice and the back and forth decisions around what the dice show. Yet, it's routinely dominated by action cheating and now the consistency of characters that don't even have dice. I think they'd get that wrong regardless of which purchasing format they push.

I like the game, still buy it - still play it, but if I were hard up on money, it would be one I'd drop for sure. It's great casual, but it's just not worth the investment I put into it.

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5 hours ago, gokubb said:

I have a friend who wants to cash out of Destiny (don't we all, which I think is the point of this thread) and he'd be lucky to get 50%.

No my point is the opposite, I like the game, I just don't see it going for much longer as the player pool slowly diminishes. I see it circling the drain and hope that something can be done to stop its slow demise, making the game affordable will achieve some progress into growing it.

I think the game you are playing is quite different to the game I am playing as many of your issues are not shared.

I do agree that OP can be improved, a lot, printing alt art cards that no-one wants is not helping. For the most part FFG has a deplorable track record here, with the kits being delayed or not arriving. Our regional cards were water damaged and there was a scare over the cards for nationals not even being ordered by the Australian distributor. I still boggle at the fact we do not have a overwritten or power action tokens in the game and these are so easy to make and pretty obvious as to their need. I have also claimed several times that dice for upgrades and supports are also something that could be done. Having a second dice for Han's Blaster doesn't help if you don't have the second card, so there is much more things that can be done with a little care and thought.

But no amount of effort will save the game if it continues to be hard to get new players.

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Affordable or not it really comes down to game balance and how much fun the game is. Sit a new player down for a match against Droids and see if they come back. They won't. Same with FN-2199 before the overwrite rule change. Same with Sabine. We probably lost more players in our area over Sabine than anything else. FFG just doesn't know how to balance this game. If they don't figure that out, then new players are going to leave as soon as they realize that 90% of their collection is crap because the power disparity in cards means only 10% of them will ever be used. And, those 10% are expensive because they are all anyone is using.

Getting a new player isn't difficult. Keeping them is. Those that try it aren't sticking around because there are too many negative play experiences in the game. And, there isn't an OP that will turn the competitive Magic-type players that overlook things like game balance over to SWD.

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For me it's the cost is the biggest issue.

I love the game.

I love competitive games, I know that there is always in one way or another power issues within any game. I like exploring what others don't and beating the unbeatable decks all the time because people are narrow in their views and game exploration.

 

But I'm leaving this game I feel. It's too expensive and that's the issue people have.

 

Is the game fun. Yes. Is it challenging diverse and technical competitively. Yes.

 

But the op support sucks and there is no reimbursement on investment there. The secondary market is languishing and it is hard to sell things so there is little to no reimbursement there. The communities are small and harp hazard as is the op so actually getting games and tournaments in is challenging and again patchy so there are even less opportunities to utilise the money spent on actually playing the game and this is made worse when the op is so bad also.

 

So you get to this point. Yes I love the game but it costs thousands to play each year and what do I get for that. A fun game experience, on the rate occasion I get to play a tournament and there are enough players there to make it challenging and enjoyable. I get some crappy op support if we're lucky enough to have it.

So why spend all of that money to deal with all those issues. Well I love the game and the IP etc etc. But this only lasts do long at some point, which is sooner for new players than old that have invested so much they feel trapped into their commitment like a bad marriage or simply have so much free cash it doesn't matter at all. You go well why should I do this over just playing a boardgame that is fun and deep, of which there are many many available. Or what about another competitive game that I can easily play in store multiple times every week, that there is strong reimbursement for, that I can come and go at any point and the community isn't dependant on me. That I can recoup some of the investment of I decide to move on. Why go against all those things that are easy to deal with at a higher cost to me the player.

 

That's what it comes down to. Is the game amazing. Yes. Is the community great yes. But op sucks, the community is still too small for regular events and op structure to get enough play out of each set in most areas. Is the game expensive yes. Can I get a similar competitive or casual experience out of a boardgame or other competitive game such as X wing, game of thrones, magic, etc. Yes, in fact there are more games more regularly of all of those with bigger communities so you get more value for you money if it costs the same and actually all of those games are cheaper except for a couple which have very high return on investment so they cost more to play but you get it back to a way higher degree and this they are cheaper.

 

Ok so why pay more to have more difficulties and issues and less play opportunities and diversity. That's the issue that faces the community. I don't know how we overcome that or if we can to be honest

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If there is a sign the game is on a fast decline, look at the costs of the first two years worth of sets. And then during the last Asmodee MAPP Price sale, both Across the Galaxy and Convergence would be found for $35 a box. That is ridiculous for new sets for a collectible game. Stores are getting stuck with stock, except for the very few stores who have a dedicated community.

The game is a ton of fun, at least when you aren't playing against degenerate decks. But between extremely poor balance and poor OP, the game is quickly dieing. The only thing keeping it alive locally is really casual meetups where people play whatever decks or we do theme nights or escalation leagues. My guess is the game has one more year left before FFG officially announces the final set.

What I would love to see is them reboot it with some cleaned up rules and card templating, and release it as an LCG model using either a fresh IP. They could also toy around with mixing IPs like VS, Dicemasters, etc. With Marvel being under FFG now, it would not surprise me to see Marvel Destiny, but with a slightly altered rule set that cleans up the game and perhaps adds a few limitations (like characters being restricted to certain types of Upgrades, Supports can take damage, etc.). 

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Like you guys, I agree that the game is good in concept.  However, I believe a few changes could help bring it back from the lull it has been on:

 - End the mill winning condition- Yes....you are reading it right.  It's supposed to be Star Wars, not Star Mill.  When people envision this game, they think of characters fighting each other in their imaginations.  When you are getting milled, the game is simply not fun.  One player ends up frustrated and may eventually leave.  If all your opponents leave, who do you get to play with?  Also, if you are the mill player, you are the one getting angry when your opponent takes 50 years to plan his next move, making you lose because the time expires.  No fun for anyone.  While I agree that its in the rules, it should not be.

- Make the card a LCG or end the "loot box" pack mechanic - Yep.  Another crazy suggestion.  But please hear me out.  Going along the lines of the CCG, I understand that some cards are harder to get than others.  However, when you are starting out with your "starter deck" package, you should expect your deck to at least stand a slim chance of winning.  But no!  Here comes your opponent with his with his deck filled with nothing but legendary cards.  Before you even get a turn, your opponent has activated all his characters, rerolled his dice 10 times and dealt 40 damage.  Yes, I'm exaggerating but that's what it feels like these days.  Part of this is due to the awful card design (Order 66 anyone), I know.  But then when you ask your opponent how he got them, his answer is: "I just opened 1,000 packs the other day along with 100 booster boxes."  In other words, it feels like a "pay to win" game.  If you have the money, your chances of winning skyrocket.  Yes, you can win with skill, but the odds are stacked against you.  If you eliminate the "loot box" mechanic behind the booster packs, then we will really see who can win based on skill.  I know you can trade cards, but I'm sticking to my point....

- Bring on new ways to win - The upcoming Covert Ops expansion is going along this suggestion.  We need something to make the game fresh again.  The other day, I took a look at the NOVA championships options for Destiny and X-Wing.  For Destiny you have your typical standard, draft, etc.  But for X-Wing, they went into new avenues.  An X-Wing Hunger Games???? You could even team up with random people and play as a team with the winner being the individual who scores the most wins with whomever he is teamed up with.  Where is that originality in Destiny????  There HAS to be more cool ways to play this game.  My hope is that Covert Ops is the start of something new....

I know people will have strong feelings against my recommendations above.  But it's just a few thoughts to ponder on.

A quick shout out to my buds over at Rochester NY.  I miss you guys.  There is a strong Destiny community there.  If you are passing by there, be sure to check them out.

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16 hours ago, Dizzmeister said:

 - End the mill winning condition- Yes....you are reading it right.  It's supposed to be Star Wars, not Star Mill.  When people envision this game, they think of characters fighting each other in their imaginations.  When you are getting milled, the game is simply not fun.  One player ends up frustrated and may eventually leave.  If all your opponents leave, who do you get to play with?  Also, if you are the mill player, you are the one getting angry when your opponent takes 50 years to plan his next move, making you lose because the time expires.  No fun for anyone.  While I agree that its in the rules, it should not be.

The issue with mill in this game is how little there is to interact with it AND how it make many cards purely useless. The best fix for Mill to me, aside from creating more cards that put cards back into your deck, is instead of losing, every time you would draw a card and can't, you take Indirect damage. Ashes: Rise of the Phoenixborn and the new Unmatched do something like this and it's perfect.

16 hours ago, Dizzmeister said:

- Make the card a LCG or end the "loot box" pack mechanic - Yep.  Another crazy suggestion.  But please hear me out.  Going along the lines of the CCG, I understand that some cards are harder to get than others.  However, when you are starting out with your "starter deck" package, you should expect your deck to at least stand a slim chance of winning.  But no!  Here comes your opponent with his with his deck filled with nothing but legendary cards.  Before you even get a turn, your opponent has activated all his characters, rerolled his dice 10 times and dealt 40 damage.  Yes, I'm exaggerating but that's what it feels like these days.  Part of this is due to the awful card design (Order 66 anyone), I know.  But then when you ask your opponent how he got them, his answer is: "I just opened 1,000 packs the other day along with 100 booster boxes."  In other words, it feels like a "pay to win" game.  If you have the money, your chances of winning skyrocket.  Yes, you can win with skill, but the odds are stacked against you.  If you eliminate the "loot box" mechanic behind the booster packs, then we will really see who can win based on skill.  I know you can trade cards, but I'm sticking to my point....

 

I have and always will prefer LCG style release formats. They have a few issues, but these issues have been addressed in other games. Collectible games will always be pay to win. They also typically benefit the publisher and game stores more than the players. Unfortunately, FFG's focus has definitely shifted in more recent years away from players and to the store. I understand they are a business, but there is a fine line between player focused design and release models vs. business focused. And aside from funky decks like the Ewoks, the majority of decks are full of Legendaries, which wasn't always the case. Also, you cannot trade cards when either there is no one to trade with, or the only things that people want to trade for are the hard to get Legendaries.

16 hours ago, Dizzmeister said:

-Bring on new ways to win - The upcoming Covert Ops expansion is going along this suggestion.  We need something to make the game fresh again.  The other day, I took a look at the NOVA championships options for Destiny and X-Wing.  For Destiny you have your typical standard, draft, etc.  But for X-Wing, they went into new avenues.  An X-Wing Hunger Games???? You could even team up with random people and play as a team with the winner being the individual who scores the most wins with whomever he is teamed up with.  Where is that originality in Destiny????  There HAS to be more cool ways to play this game.  My hope is that Covert Ops is the start of something new....

As for most collectible games, the players end up being the ones to create new formats of play. I'm not so sure new win conditions necessarily help the game, but fun and unique formats do. Our community has thrived the most when we did weird stuff like theme nights and escalation leagues. In fact, I always hear from people the most fun they have is when they play theme events. Destiny has always needed better or more diverse formats of play, as did FFG's LCGs.

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My favorite method of Destiny play right now is in draft. That's the one thing I like about the CCG vs the LCG debate. I know FFG tried draft in Netrunner, but the cards holding zero value and you already having all of them makes drafting an LCG just seem like a waste. Still a fun way to play, but expensive. Whereas with SWD or Magic or any other collectible, draft offers an exciting limited play format with the collectible/resale aspect. I used to be LCG or nothing, but I have to say I do like a few aspects of CCGs.

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The LCG model creates a pretty high barrier to entry unless you rotate aggressively. It can be many hundreds of dollars to get all the sets in order to be competitive. You don't strictly have to do that, but a new player won't know what to get or what they like. Additionally, FFG can sometimes have stock issues, a problem that may only get worse in the next year. The CCG model allows a player to dip their toes in the water without jumping in all the way since there's an aftermarket in cards. Perhaps these issue have been addressed in Lot5R, I don't know.

So I agree that this is best addressed by fixing the rare/legendary imbalance, that will allow more interesting and varied decks. If I recall this is an issue Magic had early on, so it is fixable if there's time.

And, of course, address gameplay issues. This is another place they can learn from Netrunner. No one likes to grind out games.

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20 hours ago, googly_eyed_monster said:

The LCG model creates a pretty high barrier to entry unless you rotate aggressively. It can be many hundreds of dollars to get all the sets in order to be competitive. You don't strictly have to do that, but a new player won't know what to get or what they like. Additionally, FFG can sometimes have stock issues, a problem that may only get worse in the next year. The CCG model allows a player to dip their toes in the water without jumping in all the way since there's an aftermarket in cards. Perhaps these issue have been addressed in Lot5R, I don't know.

So I agree that this is best addressed by fixing the rare/legendary imbalance, that will allow more interesting and varied decks. If I recall this is an issue Magic had early on, so it is fixable if there's time.

And, of course, address gameplay issues. This is another place they can learn from Netrunner. No one likes to grind out games.

The LCG model original was brilliant and I still think the best way to produce games, especially if you want them to be player friendly and more balanced. The issue with the original format was how large card pools became and how much people felt they needed to acquire to be caught up. But there are a lot of easy fixes to this that I've seen FFG and Plaid Hat Games do. Firstly, release complete decks to make things instantly playable AND allow people to pick and choose which factions they desire. FFG began trying that with GoT. Other fix is either reduced releases OR more condense releases. Instead of 6 small packs over 6 months, release one larger box for cheaper, and maybe print less chaff in the cards.

I really think the LCG format can work well for both casual and competitive play. I just do not think it has been perfected. Also, FFG did some horrible jobs with balance, organize play, and communication in the past that I think hurt their LCGs more than the release model ever did.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/17/2019 at 11:19 PM, bjmorrissey said:

For me it's the cost is the biggest issue.

From personal experience, I would say that this is not just the biggest issue, it's the only issue.

I've never met a person who I showed the game who didn't instantly love it, yet despite that virtually no one collects, not even me and my friend who kind of went into it initially because we managed to find stuff on sale and occasionally find things on sale to buy here and there but retail price for this game is absolutely out of the question.  It's not even really a matter of being able to afford it, it's just the ridiculousness of the business model that you just can justify it on principle alone.

16 hours ago, KingOfOdonata said:

The LCG model original was brilliant and I still think the best way to produce games, especially if you want them to be player friendly and more balanced. The issue with the original format was how large card pools became and how much people felt they needed to acquire to be caught up. But there are a lot of easy fixes to this that I've seen FFG and Plaid Hat Games do. Firstly, release complete decks to make things instantly playable AND allow people to pick and choose which factions they desire. FFG began trying that with GoT. Other fix is either reduced releases OR more condense releases. Instead of 6 small packs over 6 months, release one larger box for cheaper, and maybe print less chaff in the cards.

I really think the LCG format can work well for both casual and competitive play. I just do not think it has been perfected. Also, FFG did some horrible jobs with balance, organize play, and communication in the past that I think hurt their LCGs more than the release model ever did.

I agree.  The LCG model at least gave you an exact cost of entry down to the penny and you knew that by spending that much you would have everything to make every deck possible in the entire game.

With a CCG market it tries to sell you on the idea that "hey there is a cheap entry", but every competitive player knows that in order to compete for real you have to have everything at which point CCG games become at least 5x as expensive as any LCG regardless if you go to the 3rd party market or just roll the dice with boosters. 

In the long term as well the cost of maintaining your competitiveness in LCG is dirt cheap.  The release schedule for LCG's is like one new expansion set every couple of months that costs 15 bucks retail and your 100% caught up. 

With the CCG every time they put out a new set your going to pay a few hundred dollars to get everything and that's assuming you go straight to the third party market. More importantly until you do it, you simply can't be competitive as the structure of releases is designed in a way to kill the previous expansion meta.  With an LCG the expansion add so few cards that you can very clearly determine whether or not you even need them. 

The argument that CCG's are somehow cheaper for competitive play is completely bogus.  Its cheaper to make 1 specific deck that will be competitive for an extremely short period of time after which you can throw it in the garbage.  

I look at my collection of Destiny cards and I would say 99% of them I have never used and probably will never use.

 

Edited by BigKahuna

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But, that highlights a failure in the comparison. You’re going into it thinking you need all of the cards to compete in the CCG. You don’t at all. That 99% waste you’ll never play with you don’t need to buy. It’s a choice for a CCG player to get a playset, not a necessity. If you want to build a competitive deck, CCGs are actually often cheaper than an LCG. There is no LCG secondary market. The champion decks they’ve released make it easier to buy in, but only for that deck.

Destiny’s problem isn’t the release format. It’s that the competitive CCG players don’t get the other CCG benefits of their purchase (thriving secondary market; monetary prize supported OP; etc).

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I believe that the CCG model is slowly starving the game of players.

But I don't see the LCG model as being any better. At 30 cards a month it takes 6 months to get a 180 cards, one release of cards. Now, 6 months with C3-PO and R2-D2 + One!! Yeah that will never get old, content creators are already complaining that after 2 months this current meta is old and tired.

Also, this assumes that FFG actually releases one pack a month. Have they ever?

I would suggest they need to look at re-boxing the 180 into a box and release said box every 4 months as a new set. I think if you got a single of each card in a $100-125 box even buying 2 boxes would be far better than what it costs now. Just allowing 2 players to buy a box each and make a villain and hero deck each would make the game even more accessible.

I feel that Marvel Champions is more like a board game where the expansions are coming faster than normal. I think if they looked at an approach that made their card games more like board games, they would do better. The basic idea, of being able to buy an expansion (or not) and have a game that anyone can pickup and play, makes the Marvel game far more accessible than almost every other card game they have.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Amanal said:

I believe that the CCG model is slowly starving the game of players.

But I don't see the LCG model as being any better. At 30 cards a month it takes 6 months to get a 180 cards, one release of cards. Now, 6 months with C3-PO and R2-D2 + One!! Yeah that will never get old, content creators are already complaining that after 2 months this current meta is old and tired.

Also, this assumes that FFG actually releases one pack a month. Have they ever?

I would suggest they need to look at re-boxing the 180 into a box and release said box every 4 months as a new set. I think if you got a single of each card in a $100-125 box even buying 2 boxes would be far better than what it costs now. Just allowing 2 players to buy a box each and make a villain and hero deck each would make the game even more accessible.

I feel that Marvel Champions is more like a board game where the expansions are coming faster than normal. I think if they looked at an approach that made their card games more like board games, they would do better. The basic idea, of being able to buy an expansion (or not) and have a game that anyone can pickup and play, makes the Marvel game far more accessible than almost every other card game they have.

The Marvel game however is quite different in that it's a cooperative rather than a competitive game.  It really works very much like Lord of the Rings LCG where you collect the things that sound fun to play and you get player cards as a bonus.  Its really not a deck building game in the same sense as the cards you get for the set you just bought are the cards you would use to beat it.  Like you can't really build a deck that can beat every quest, its more like you build a deck to beat specific quests.

Still I think we are having two different conversation, one which makes assumptions about how things could work and the other how things actually work.

How things actually work is that the overwhelming vast majority of players who invest in a collectable game are going to want and are actively pursuing getting everything.  The amount of people who just dabble in a CCG or an LCG is extremely small.  Collectable games in practice are an all or nothing kind of a thing for gamers and gamers (not casuals) are pretty much the only audience.  This is the reality of the situation.

I recognize that you could buy cards from a secondary market to make a single competitive deck for pretty cheap in a CCG, but you could do the exact same thing in an LCG even without a secondary market.  What I'm pointing out is that is not a good sales pitch and no one is going to enter the community with that sort of approach which is why Destiny has so much trouble building a community that grows as opposed to shrinking as it has been.

Gamers who decide "I'm going to play this game" get everything or they look at it and say "to get everything it costs too much, so I'm not going to get anything".  This is how in practice this works and this is why LCG's are waaaaaaay cheaper.  Getting everything for any of these games is going to be expensive regardless, but at least with LCG's you know the price tag down to the penny on how much its going to cost you and you can decide to either spend the x bucks to getting everything or not buy anything.  With CCG's you don't have that option.

With CCG's your options are to buy random boosters and hope for the best or pay obscene amounts of money in the secondary market to complete your collection and I assure you getting everything for Destiny today on the secondary market will cost you more than getting a full LCG collections of all the fantasy flight games combined.  The prices are insane.  A single Legendary card can cost upwards of 40 bucks, you can get entire expansions for half that in any LCG and strictly speaking to have a workable collection you need two of everything, which simply means whatever price you come up with, double it.

Edited by BigKahuna

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4 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

 

Gamers who decide "I'm going to play this game" get everything or they look at it and say "to get everything it costs too much, so I'm not going to get anything". 

That’s just not accurate. At any Magic tournament, the turnout is going to be about half players that have everything and half that piece decks together through singles. Very few MtG players drop the cash for a case every release night so they can get a playset. Some do, but it isn’t common, let alone all of them.

I’ve been playing competitive CCGs for over 20 years. The “must have playset” mentality is relatively new, and something I think that LCGs helped to create. With many Destiny players being FFG card game veterans, I think it’s more a mentality of that game than it is for any other CCG.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, gokubb said:

That’s just not accurate. At any Magic tournament, the turnout is going to be about half players that have everything and half that piece decks together through singles. Very few MtG players drop the cash for a case every release night so they can get a playset. Some do, but it isn’t common, let alone all of them.

I’ve been playing competitive CCGs for over 20 years. The “must have playset” mentality is relatively new, and something I think that LCGs helped to create. With many Destiny players being FFG card game veterans, I think it’s more a mentality of that game than it is for any other CCG.

You sort of made my point here, but I will try to illustrate this more clearly.

The core concept of collectible card games is the collection of cards, its built into the premise and foundation of the game.  To build decks players want maximum options and so they naturally pursue all the cards in every collection so that they can have those options.  I don't think that can be viewed as a surprise or unusual circumstance for this or any other game, its what I would expect out of every player that plays any collectible game... that the goal is to collect everything.

The reason that people make compromises with Magic is precisely because its so obscenely expensive to keep up that the majority of gamers who play the game simply don't have the economy to keep up.  Its not a matter of desire or goal, its simply a limitation of economics. You referenced the mentality of the FFG community as being fixated on complete collections, but I would argue that is the norm pretty much in every other CCG and LCG on the market today (including magic) and in the past 3 decades. 

I think the reason why people who play FFG games complete their collections is exactly because its so much more affordable that most people can afford to complete their collections.  

Another words, the reason why as you put it, "half the players piece decks together through singles", is because they can't afford to do it any other way and the reason why most people complete collections of LCG games is because they can.  

I  think you're really underestimating the expenses of even a single deck.  Consider for a moment in Destiny the most popular deck on SWDestiny DB, the so called Blue Man Group.  Now lets say that I want to play in a tournament and I figure, ok I can't afford to buy boosters and hope for the best so I will buy this deck via singles on the 3rd party market.  I'm not even saying this is a good deck, but I just randomly picked the first one on the list and priced it.  It was about 300 bucks for that deck.

For 300 dollars today you can buy the entire Legend of the five Rings collection with money to spare.

Your kidding yourself if you think a CCG is cheaper or somehow more approachable.  Half of the magic gamers aren't playing with slapped together decks because they want to but because they can't afford to do it any other way.  Making Destiny a CCG is the core and only reason why the game is in as poor shape as it is today.  

Its a fantastic game, easily one of the best competitive card games on the market in my opinion, it blows the doors off anything else, but it doesn't matter, the cost of it is too high to recommend to anyone and the first thing any Destiny player tells any potential new player is "its super expensive so get ready for that".  I mean I have introduced the game to tons of people but I would never tell someone "its worth it".  That's just poor etiquette.  

The question is why is it so hard to get new players and the answer is simple, the game is way to expensive.  Everything else is just beating around the bush.

Edited by BigKahuna

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1 hour ago, BigKahuna said:

The reason that people make compromises with Magic is precisely because its so obscenely expensive to keep up that the majority of gamers who play the game simply don't have the economy to keep up.  Its not a matter of desire or goal, its simply a limitation of economics. You referenced the mentality of the FFG community as being fixated on complete collections, but I would argue that is the norm pretty much in every other CCG and LCG on the market today (including magic) and in the past 3 decades. 

You and the gaming groups around you must have a very different perspective on the last three decades than around my area. Completing playsets was an anomaly in groups around my area. Maybe in Decipher's Star Wars CCG (which didn't have a playset at all with no card limit) or LotR games there was the collection first mindset. The rest, were all about the specific decks a person wanted to play. In Highlander TCG people only collected the persona they wanted to play. In L5R, only the clan. Vs System was more like Magic. People bought decks they wanted to play and paid great secondary prices to do so, maybe because the game also had a thriving cash paying OP like Magic. In Warlord, people played the commander they wanted. In Seventh Sea, only the faction they wanted, etc etc. 

I must be an anomaly, because I'm about to start doing the same with Destiny. I hate pulling a legendary from trash Last Jedi stuff. If I pull another Admiral Holdo, I'll flip. I've no desire to ever play witches, no matter how good they are. I dislike Aurra Sing and Jango Fett. I've got two complete playsets of every set so far, but for the next, I'm only buying one box and then the singles I want to piece together decks that interest me. 

1 hour ago, BigKahuna said:

I  think you're really underestimating the expenses of even a single deck.  Consider for a moment in Destiny the most popular deck on SWDestiny DB, the so called Blue Man Group.  Now lets say that I want to play in a tournament and I figure, ok I can't afford to buy boosters and hope for the best so I will buy this deck via singles on the 3rd party market.  I'm not even saying this is a good deck, but I just randomly picked the first one on the list and priced it.  It was about 300 bucks for that deck.

For 300 dollars today you can buy the entire Legend of the five Rings collection with money to spare.

This is an exaggeration to prove a point. You can build Thrawn/Sentinel for about $200. A playset of L5R right now is about $450 retail. You'd only be getting it cheaper because it's a bad game that people are getting out of as fast as they are Destiny.

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3 minutes ago, gokubb said:

You and the gaming groups around you must have a very different perspective on the last three decades than around my area. Completing playsets was an anomaly in groups around my area. Maybe in Decipher's Star Wars CCG (which didn't have a playset at all with no card limit) or LotR games there was the collection first mindset. The rest, were all about the specific decks a person wanted to play. In Highlander TCG people only collected the persona they wanted to play. In L5R, only the clan. Vs System was more like Magic. People bought decks they wanted to play and paid great secondary prices to do so, maybe because the game also had a thriving cash paying OP like Magic. In Warlord, people played the commander they wanted. In Seventh Sea, only the faction they wanted, etc etc. 

I must be an anomaly, because I'm about to start doing the same with Destiny. I hate pulling a legendary from trash Last Jedi stuff. If I pull another Admiral Holdo, I'll flip. I've no desire to ever play witches, no matter how good they are. I dislike Aurra Sing and Jango Fett. I've got two complete playsets of every set so far, but for the next, I'm only buying one box and then the singles I want to piece together decks that interest me. 

This is an exaggeration to prove a point. You can build Thrawn/Sentinel for about $200. A playset of L5R right now is about $450 retail. You'd only be getting it cheaper because it's a bad game that people are getting out of as fast as they are Destiny.

The difference is, you are paying $200 for one deck while buying LCGs (and retail prices are misleading) is a large variety of decks.

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7 minutes ago, KingOfOdonata said:

The difference is, you are paying $200 for one deck while buying LCGs (and retail prices are misleading) is a large variety of decks.

I'm in no way arguing CCGs are cheaper for variety. They just can be cheaper to become competitive. I'm just not in the camp that Destiny should be an LCG. A good CCG has value beyond playing that an LCG doesn't. I've gotten out of several LCGs (GoT First Edition; Arkham LCG; L5R LCG; Warhammer 40k Conquest) all at some point or another. I took a huge haircut on value at a rate of probably 90% loss. There's no aftermarket. 

Now, if a CCG is ran well, with solid organized play and prize support, the investment put into one CCG deck could actually accumulate in value over time. There's no comparison to the cost benefit over time between the two formats. If I buy a Magic deck for $200 in another year it's most likely still worth $200 or more (barring banning, rotation time period, etc). A well ran CCG can be worth it, even for completionists. Destiny isn't, not because of the model, but because it's not a well-ran CCG.

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14 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

The Marvel game however is quite different in that it's a cooperative rather than a competitive game.

Yes, it is a different game, but then so is every game that isn't Destiny. 

My point here is the LCG/CCG model is killing us.

LCG is not a fast change of things it stagnates and problems are made all the worse for this. I don't think the game would have made it past the black boxes.

CCG needs more than we have from FFG, we could argue the details of the points Gokubb makes but there is something not quite right. We don't have prizes that makes a large spend worthwhile and the secondary markets are shrinking. I think the underlying idea of his points is that if I built a deck when Legacies came out, I can't just add a few cards and make it work with Convergance, Convergance comes with its own meta that destroys the previous one. This has a profound affect on the "buy in" to the game and how players are going to find the cost of the game. I think, I will lean towards agreeing that, the issue here is my cards hold no value because of this. How much will we value R2-D2 and C3-PO next set? 

Think about this card:

08001.jpg 

 

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On 8/17/2019 at 10:19 PM, bjmorrissey said:

For me it's the cost is the biggest issue.

I love the game.

I love competitive games, I know that there is alway  Dafont Showbox Adam4adam s in one way or another power issues within any game. I like exploring what others don't and beating the unbeatable decks all the time because people are narrow in their views and game exploration.

 

But I'm leaving this game I feel. It's too expensive and that's the issue people have.

 

Is the game fun. Yes. Is it challenging diverse and technical competitively. Yes.

 

But the op support sucks and there is no reimbursement on investment there. The secondary market is languishing and it is hard to sell things so there is little to no reimbursement there. The communities are small and harp hazard as is the op so actually getting games and tournaments in is challenging and again patchy so there are even less opportunities to utilise the money spent on actually playing the game and this is made worse when the op is so bad also.

 

So you get to this point. Yes I love the game but it costs thousands to play each year and what do I get for that. A fun game experience, on the rate occasion I get to play a tournament and there are enough players there to make it challenging and enjoyable. I get some crappy op support if we're lucky enough to have it.

So why spend all of that money to deal with all those issues. Well I love the game and the IP etc etc. But this only lasts do long at some point, which is sooner for new players than old that have invested so much they feel trapped into their commitment like a bad marriage or simply have so much free cash it doesn't matter at all. You go well why should I do this over just playing a boardgame that is fun and deep, of which there are many many available. Or what about another competitive game that I can easily play in store multiple times every week, that there is strong reimbursement for, that I can come and go at any point and the community isn't dependant on me. That I can recoup some of the investment of I decide to move on. Why go against all those things that are easy to deal with at a higher cost to me the player.

 

That's what it comes down to. Is the game amazing. Yes. Is the community great yes. But op sucks, the community is still too small for regular events and op structure to get enough play out of each set in most areas. Is the game expensive yes. Can I get a similar competitive or casual experience out of a boardgame or other competitive game such as X wing, game of thrones, magic, etc. Yes, in fact there are more games more regularly of all of those with bigger communities so you get more value for you money if it costs the same and actually all of those games are cheaper except for a couple which have very high return on investment so they cost more to play but you get it back to a way higher degree and this they are cheaper.

 

Ok so why pay more to have more difficulties and issues and less play opportunities and diversity. That's the issue that faces the community. I don't know how we overcome that or if we can to be honest

I think this is one of the best card games you can get, the dice makes each card "imperfect", so unlike Magic or Keyforge where you can look at your hand and spot the best play with Destiny you more often than not have to take what you get. This makes the game far more enjoyable as a "puzzle" every turn you have something new to solve with the cards and dice you have.
 

Edited by ZINADOLL

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After the recent AMA with Andrew Navaro and the overall avoidance of any discussion on Star Wars: Destiny, I believe the future of this game is going to be short. So what that being said, getting people into the game will be easy with tremendously discounted booster boxes and people selling out collections.

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Well the AMA and the ensuing conversation of what went wrong with players is absolutely the best of learning tools for what NOT to do when things go wrong.

Perhaps the game is on it's last legs or perhaps someone at FFG just "gone and stuffed up" but without the conversation taking place players are going to believe what they want, and that is probably going to damage the game far more than a simple delay ever would.

The Irony is calling the last set "Spark of Hope".

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