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Yank01

Vader Crew - Destroyed Ship Timing

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I think I may be overthinking this, but if a ship takes its final damage from the Vader crew ability when is it removed from the board?

1. Immediately?

2. After all ships of the ship carrying Vader's initiative have engaged?

3. Some other time?

For reference:

Vader Crew Ability - At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2 and spend 1 (force token).  If you do, that ship suffers 1 (hit) damage unless it chooses to remove 1 green token.

From the RR:

After a ship is destroyed in a phase other than the Engagement Phase, it is removed from the game.

If a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged, which is called simultaneous fire.

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@Hiemfire's evaluation is sound; the only question I have is, what if the ship Vader is targeting also has "at the start of the engagement phase" triggers?  If Vader is first player, would he destroy that ship before it can retaliate?  Or would the enemy ship still get its "start of phase" triggers?

Example:  Mirror Match.  Each player has a TIE Reaper with Vader on board, down to its last hull.  Both ships end up in each other's front arc, and both ships are tokenless.  If the first player uses Vader on the second, can the second use Vader on the first, or is he removed before the second Vader has a chance to trigger?

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54 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

@Hiemfire's evaluation is sound; the only question I have is, what if the ship Vader is targeting also has "at the start of the engagement phase" triggers?  If Vader is first player, would he destroy that ship before it can retaliate?  Or would the enemy ship still get its "start of phase" triggers?

Example:  Mirror Match.  Each player has a TIE Reaper with Vader on board, down to its last hull.  Both ships end up in each other's front arc, and both ships are tokenless.  If the first player uses Vader on the second, can the second use Vader on the first, or is he removed before the second Vader has a chance to trigger?

I would argue that both abilities would resolve, as they both share the same timing window.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

@Hiemfire's evaluation is sound; the only question I have is, what if the ship Vader is targeting also has "at the start of the engagement phase" triggers?  If Vader is first player, would he destroy that ship before it can retaliate?  Or would the enemy ship still get its "start of phase" triggers?

Example:  Mirror Match.  Each player has a TIE Reaper with Vader on board, down to its last hull.  Both ships end up in each other's front arc, and both ships are tokenless.  If the first player uses Vader on the second, can the second use Vader on the first, or is he removed before the second Vader has a chance to trigger?

If abilities share a trigger, they will all be placed in the queue before any of them begins to resolve. 

The real question is if a ship with enqueued ability being destroyed doesn't prevent its ability from resolving. 

Edited by Ryfterek
Typo

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4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

IIRC there's a rule that says if a ship'#s ability has been triggered, it's kept on the board until it's resolved, even if the ship has already been killed.

Close, but not quite. 

 

RR pg 9

Quote

A destroyed ship’s abilities remain active until that ship is removed unless the ability specifies a different timing for the effect to end, such as “until the end of the Engagement Phase.” Such effects remain active until the end of the specified time.

It doesn't specifically say "until resolved" just that, until its removed from the game, its abilities are still active. 

So the question remains, when is a ship that is destroyed at the start of the Engagement phase, actually removed from the game.  If it is removed immediately, then it really doesn't matter that its ability is still in the queue as the ability no longer has anything to reference. 

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So the way I read it is that if Vader crew destroys a ship, it is immediately removed from the board unless the destroyed ship one has or shares the highest initiative left on the mat. 

Vader crew reads... "At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2..."

Per the RR... "At the start of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step. The effect triggers before anything occurs during that phase or step." 

I would say "...before anything..." would mean before the highest PS ship engages and also per the RR...

"If a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged, which is called simultaneous fire."

So... the destroyed ship could still get a chance to engage if it shares the highest PS, otherwise, its immediately removed per the simultaneous fire rule. 

 

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1 hour ago, shaunmerritt said:

So... the destroyed ship could still get a chance to engage if it shares the highest PS, otherwise, its immediately removed per the simultaneous fire rule. 

Except there is no "currently engaged ship".

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

@Hiemfire's evaluation is sound; the only question I have is, what if the ship Vader is targeting also has "at the start of the engagement phase" triggers?  If Vader is first player, would he destroy that ship before it can retaliate?  Or would the enemy ship still get its "start of phase" triggers?

Example:  Mirror Match.  Each player has a TIE Reaper with Vader on board, down to its last hull.  Both ships end up in each other's front arc, and both ships are tokenless.  If the first player uses Vader on the second, can the second use Vader on the first, or is he removed before the second Vader has a chance to trigger?

RR Page 9 (the rule I think @thespaceinvader is referencing)If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed.

It seems that the first player triggers their Darth Vader "At the start of the engagement phase" and then the second player triggers their Darth Vader "At the start of the engagement phase" immediately before the ship is removed.

Edited by Yank01

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8 hours ago, Yank01 said:

RR Page 9 (the rule I think @thespaceinvader is referencing)If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed.

It seems that the first player triggers their Darth Vader "At the start of the engagement phase" and then the second player triggers their Darth Vader "At the start of the engagement phase" immediately before the ship is removed.

That rule refers to abilities for which the trigger is a ship being destroyed, e.g. Admiral Sloane, Deathfire, Resistance Chewbacca, Tel Trevura.

The ability queue means that, in a mirror match, both Vader crew abilities have an opportunity to trigger before either Vader crew ability resolves. Once in the queue, the ability is set to be resolved, even if the ship carrying Vader is destroyed before the ability is resolved.

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3 hours ago, Maui. said:

, both Vader crew abilities have an opportunity to trigger before either Vader crew ability resolves. Once in the queue, the ability is set to be resolved, even if the ship carrying Vader is destroyed before the ability is resolved.

That's up for debate. Its not clear from FFG if that is the case. Right with the ability queue, there is a question on when the ability in the queue checked for condition. When it enters the queue, or when it actually resolves? 

If its checked when it enters the queue, then that would mean the destroyed ship isnt removed while the ability is in queue, because the ability NEEDS the ship to be in play as a reference on where that ability can target (firing arc at range).

If however, the ability that is in queue is checked when it resolves, unless the ship is judged to still be in play, the ability fails to resolve because it doesn't have reference point at which it can target anything. 

Which ties back to my original question 

When is a ship that is destroyed at the start of the Engagement phase, actually removed from the game?

 

Honestly, i can see both sides as having merit. One the one hand, having the ship removed the moment its destroyed falls in line with the rule on when it happens. It also gives weight to being the first player, as the 2nd player's ability wouldn't resolve. On the other hand, I can also see the ability checked the moment it enters the queue, but less so about the ship remaining in play, but it would need to until the queue is clear, which can also be a thing. 

So i dono. Either way, it isnt clear. 

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17 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

When is a ship that is destroyed at the start of the Engagement phase, actually removed from the game?

I would say the question is more general than this. When is a ship removed if it is destroyed during the Engagement phase and there is no currently engaged ship? It could be the start of the Engagement or the end of the Engagement. 

It could even be the "middle" of Engagement depending on when a ship is no longer "engaged". Here's an example of the "middle". Airen performs an attack, after the attack he is no longer "engaged" (maybe?). He gives an action to Corran Horn who has Collision Detector. Corran decides to try and barrel roll over a rock when he has 1 hull left and no charges on the Detector. He dies from rock damage. If Airen is no longer "engaged" then there is not a "currently engaged ship" when Corran dies. Does Corran get to shoot at I5 (the same as Airen) or is he immediately removed because there is no "currently engaged ship"?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MadTownXWing said:

I would say the question is more general than this. When is a ship removed if it is destroyed during the Engagement phase and there is no currently engaged ship? It could be the start of the Engagement or the end of the Engagement. 

It could even be the "middle" of Engagement depending on when a ship is no longer "engaged". Here's an example of the "middle". Airen performs an attack, after the attack he is no longer "engaged" (maybe?). He gives an action to Corran Horn who has Collision Detector. Corran decides to try and barrel roll over a rock when he has 1 hull left and no charges on the Detector. He dies from rock damage. If Airen is no longer "engaged" then there is not a "currently engaged ship" when Corran dies. Does Corran get to shoot at I5 (the same as Airen) or is he immediately removed because there is no "currently engaged ship"?

Start of engagement timing is irrelevant. The same situation could happen outside of engagement entirely (with other abilities) and it would be the same question. 

To your 2nd question, It doesn't matter if Airen is engaged or not. What matters is the initiative you are on. So yes, you are on I-5, and Airen goes, then Corran goes, regardless if he is destroyed or not. He even stays on the board if your opponent's I-5's haven't gone yet. He only gets removed after the last I-5 ship has acted. So there is no "middle" like you are thinking. But, he does get removed and will not be allowed to trigger his bonus attack at I-0, because he will be removed before then. 

Edited by Lyianx

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Des Darklighter said:

Something similar came up in a game that I played recently.

How do you resolve the timing for Vader on a tokenless Soontir that has bullseye?

Player order. First player's ability then second player's. So if Soontir was first player they would have the focus token to spend, if they're second player they take the damage. Unless Soontir has the bullseye out at range 3, then Vader doesn't trigger.

Edited by Hiemfire

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1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Start of engagement timing is irrelevant. The same situation could happen outside of engagement entirely (with other abilities) and it would be the same question. 

It wouldn't be the same question, it might be a similar question but not the same. The issue is that the rules were written with the expectation that ships will only die in the Engagement Phase while a ship is "currently engaged". 

 

1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

To your 2nd question, It doesn't matter if Airen is engaged or not. 

It actually might matter if Airen is engaged or not. Per the Simultaneous Fire section (which aligns with the Destroying Ships section) "if a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged". My point being if Airen is no longer "currently engaged" then there is not a ship initiative for this language to target which means there is no ruling on when Corran should be removed. There are 2 things that I missed when I created this example though:

  1. The action given by Airen would occur during the Aftermath step of attacking so it would almost certainly occur while Airen is still "engaged".
  2. The language under the Attack section referencing removing ships is different than the language in the Simultaneous Fire and Destroying Ships sections. It says "if a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, the ship is not removed until all ships of the attacker's initiative have engaged". It uses "attacker" rather than "currently engaged ship" which leads to my next example.

You could argue that there is no "middle" because all of the abilities that deal damage would occur during the Aftermath step of an attack being performed by a "currently engaged ship". EXCEPT for bonus attacks at a different initiative such as Corran Horn again.

  1. Corran vs Null with 1 damage card.
  2. Corran engages at I5 and performs an attack that misses.
  3. Corran has initiative so he gets to perform his bonus attack at I0 before Null engages.
  4. Corran does so and deals 2 damage killing Null.
  5. Is Null immediately removed or does he get to shoot back?

This is complicated IMO because per the rules under the Engagement Phase section, "each ship engages only once during this phase". Which means Corran "engaged" at I5. Performing an attack is not the same as engaging so when Corran performs his bonus attack he is not "engaged". When Null dies there is no "currently engaged ship" to reference. According to the Simultaneous Fire and Destroying Ships sections there is no ruling on what to do and according to the Attack section Null gets to shoot. I feel like this is an honest in the "middle" example. 

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22 minutes ago, MadTownXWing said:

It wouldn't be the same question, it might be a similar question but not the same. The issue is that the rules were written with the expectation that ships will only die in the Engagement Phase while a ship is "currently engaged". 

 

It actually might matter if Airen is engaged or not. Per the Simultaneous Fire section (which aligns with the Destroying Ships section) "if a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged". My point being if Airen is no longer "currently engaged" then there is not a ship initiative for this language to target which means there is no ruling on when Corran should be removed. There are 2 things that I missed when I created this example though:

  1. The action given by Airen would occur during the Aftermath step of attacking so it would almost certainly occur while Airen is still "engaged".
  2. The language under the Attack section referencing removing ships is different than the language in the Simultaneous Fire and Destroying Ships sections. It says "if a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, the ship is not removed until all ships of the attacker's initiative have engaged". It uses "attacker" rather than "currently engaged ship" which leads to my next example.

You could argue that there is no "middle" because all of the abilities that deal damage would occur during the Aftermath step of an attack being performed by a "currently engaged ship". EXCEPT for bonus attacks at a different initiative such as Corran Horn again.

  1. Corran vs Null with 1 damage card.
  2. Corran engages at I5 and performs an attack that misses.
  3. Corran has initiative so he gets to perform his bonus attack at I0 before Null engages.
  4. Corran does so and deals 2 damage killing Null.
  5. Is Null immediately removed or does he get to shoot back?

This is complicated IMO because per the rules under the Engagement Phase section, "each ship engages only once during this phase". Which means Corran "engaged" at I5. Performing an attack is not the same as engaging so when Corran performs his bonus attack he is not "engaged". When Null dies there is no "currently engaged ship" to reference. According to the Simultaneous Fire and Destroying Ships sections there is no ruling on what to do and according to the Attack section Null gets to shoot. I feel like this is an honest in the "middle" example. 

It's pretty clear that Null gets to shoot in the above scenario. Engagement Phase, p10:

Quote

• After all ships of a given initiative have engaged, all destroyed ships are removed. Then, continuing in descending order, this process continues with all ships of the same initiative engaging and then removing all destroyed ships.

Corran fires his bonus attack at initiative 0, so any ship he destroys with this attack is not removed until after all initiative 0 ships have engaged.

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16 hours ago, Maui. said:

Corran fires his bonus attack at initiative 0, so any ship he destroys with this attack is not removed until after all initiative 0 ships have engaged.

Maybe. Corran fires at I0 but he does not "engage" at I0. So once again there is no "given initiative" to reference  since no ships have yet engaged at I0. 

The quote you referenced from the Engagement Phase section actually opens a whole new question now. What if Null has initiative and engages at I0 first and then kills Corran. At that point all I0 ships have "engaged" because Corran does not get to "engage" at I0. Therefore shouldn't he be removed before he gets to perform his bonus attack?

I will admit that I think RAI it is clear what should be happen regarding these examples for the "middle" of the Engagement Phase. I'm just trying to point out that RAW they have referenced what should happen in now FOUR different places in the RRG that all have slightly different language (Attack, Destroying Ships, Engagement Phase, Simultaneous Fire). 

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13 minutes ago, MadTownXWing said:

Maybe. Corran fires at I0 but he does not "engage" at I0. So once again there is no "given initiative" to reference  since no ships have yet engaged at I0. 

The quote I referenced does not refer to a 'given initiative.' It makes it clear that ships are not removed until all ships have engaged at that initiative.

Quote

 

What if Null has initiative and engages at I0 first and then kills Corran. At that point all I0 ships have "engaged" because Corran does not get to "engage" at I0. Therefore shouldn't he be removed before he gets to perform his bonus attack?

I will admit that I think RAI it is clear what should be happen regarding these examples for the "middle" of the Engagement Phase. I'm just trying to point out that RAW they have referenced what should happen in now FOUR different places in the RRG that all have slightly different language (Attack, Destroying Ships, Engagement Phase, Simultaneous Fire). 

 

I would say that Corran gets to shoot before being removed, because his ability has already been queued and occurs during the appropriate initiative step before ships are removed. 

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