Four Passive Sensor Gunboats

[Wazat 655]

After learning to fly the ships better and experimenting more, I've determined that these are casual-only.  Some of my lists do a good job at holding their own or even beating the meta fleets, but this is definitely not one of them. 

Gunboats are simply not versatile enough, and it's too hard to put the pressure on when the situation calls for it, or line up the next round of attacks.

I haven't tried the pocket ace variant, but I suspect that will not be enough to change the fleet's fortunes.  The core issue remains: gunboats just can't move the way they need to in order to tango with serious fleets.

 

I plan to play the pocket ace version at some point, but in casual play.  Right now I'm trying to find something I want to fly for the Intermountain Cup tournament, and this is not it.  I suspect the ace version will be a fun variant for casual games though, so I'll try to report back when I get to give it a try.

[Firebird TMK 131]

I see a list like this, I'll just fly off the board.  I came up against a list with only two gunboats (+ Inquisitor + bomber IIRC) and it was incredibly obnoxious to play against.  I hated gunboats in 1.0, and my opinion hasn't improved in 2.0.  If anything, they're even more obnoxious due to now being able to Passive, Slam, shoot while (supposedly) DISABLED, and reload on top of it all.

Edited August 22 by Firebird TMK

[Wazat 655]

54 minutes ago, Firebird TMK said:

I see a list like this, I'll just fly off the board.  I came up against a list with only two gunboats (+ Inquisitor + bomber IIRC) and it was incredibly obnoxious to play against.  I hated gunboats in 1.0, and my opinion hasn't improved in 2.0.  If anything, they're even more obnoxious due to now being able to Passive, Slam, shoot while (supposedly) DISABLED, and reload on top of it all.

I think 1 - 2 gunboats as part of a larger team are more effective than four.  Four lacks any versatility and can't do much more than the initial joust well, if that.  They need amply mobile and dangerous allies to act as the hammer to their anvil.

At least 2.0 gunboats don't have harpoons, and can't spend the lock if they fire while disabled, and can't fire with 2 disable tokens (so no slam + reload + fire).  And Advanced Slam stresses them, greatly limiting how it can be used.  They're much, much more muted in this edition, thank heaven.  Harpoon Gunboats were not fun.

[JJ48 6,807]

1 hour ago, Firebird TMK said:

I see a list like this, I'll just fly off the board.  I came up against a list with only two gunboats (+ Inquisitor + bomber IIRC) and it was incredibly obnoxious to play against.  I hated gunboats in 1.0, and my opinion hasn't improved in 2.0.  If anything, they're even more obnoxious due to now being able to Passive, Slam, shoot while (supposedly) DISABLED, and reload on top of it all.

Hey, at least they're no longer killing Bonus Objectives that their allies are trying to capture.

[Azrapse 3,017]

17 hours ago, Firebird TMK said:

I see a list like this, I'll just fly off the board.  I came up against a list with only two gunboats (+ Inquisitor + bomber IIRC) and it was incredibly obnoxious to play against.  I hated gunboats in 1.0, and my opinion hasn't improved in 2.0.  If anything, they're even more obnoxious due to now being able to Passive, Slam, shoot while (supposedly) DISABLED, and reload on top of it all.

They can do lots of different things, but not at the same time, and they don't really have big teeth.

You cannot do Passive and Slam in the same round.
You cannot do Passive and get coordinated to have a double mod for missiles or torpedoes.
You can Slam and fire or Slam and reload, but not both.
Slam sounds like a huge bonus on paper, but the ship has no way to turn around other than spending 2-3 rounds Sunday-flying around the asteroids. I would gladly trade Slam away for some koiogran or segnor in the dial.
I find it incredibly hard to end up with double mods on an ordnance attack with this ship. Oftentimes, if you lock a ship and don't spend the lock hoping to have lock+focus the next round, that ship will end up either out of arc or out of range for the rest of the game, having to change your lock again and again. And that is because this ship has such a stiff dial. If it weren't for SLAM, it would move slightly better than a Lambda.

A bunch of these ships together are good only at the initial alpha strike, and then going to time by flying away like a bunch of oversized moths.
It is probably most effective as a single flanker.

Edited August 23 by Azrapse

[Blail Blerg 6,796]

Is there any good reason to run a Gunboat now? 

Sadly, I think the game is still in its infancy. A lot of ships just kind of are one-dimensional or zero-dimensional cuz they depended on good upgrades in 1.0. 

[Managarmr 1,790]

4 hours ago, Azrapse said:

You cannot do Passive and get coordinated to have a double mod for missiles or torpedoes.

You can, if you have a lower Ini  coordinator which moves before the Gunbloat. Coordinate a focus, then move the Gunbloat, which then does passive. When it engages it has TL+Focus.

Edited August 23 by Managarmr
Spelling

[Wazat 655]

4 hours ago, Managarmr said:

You can, if you have a lower Ini  coordinator which moves before the Gunbloat. Coordinate a focus, then move the Gunbloat, which then does passive. When it engages it has TL+Focus.

Yea, that was my goal with flying with a TIE Reaper.

8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Is there any good reason to run a Gunboat now? 

Sadly, I think the game is still in its infancy. A lot of ships just kind of are one-dimensional or zero-dimensional cuz they depended on good upgrades in 1.0. 

I suspect a single gunboat with PS and some munitions is a pretty decent flanker.  If the enemy focuses on the rest of your team, it can operate a lot more effectively.  If they focus on the gunboat, it has the health to take it, and the team can exploit the distraction.  Even two gunboats could be viable.  But not four, IMO.

And for delivering proton torps etc, you have to compare to other munitions carriers like TIE Bombers, E-Wings, X-Wings, etc.  Not that all those ships are seeing tons of use either, but they might be better overall at munitions delivery by trading SLAM for other features like high init, k-turns, lower cost, etc.

That said, the gunboat has a sensor slot for PS or FCS (very valuable for munitions), it's almost as cheap as a TIE Bomber (which is quite cheap), and it has a ton of health (including shields).  So swapping k-turn for slam does get you some advantages, which can be put to work if you're not stuck knife-fighting the enemy on their terms.  What a gunboat really wants to do is chase or flank foes, not always face them head-on.  I kept trying to set that up by coming at my opponent from different directions in my 4-gunboats team, but because foes can k-turn, arc-dodge, and/or slow-roll etc, it always turned into a cluster-cuss that favored them.

So I wouldn't field more than two, because you need teammates that are pressuring the opponent to play differently and respond to THEM, instead of happily outplaying the gunboats.

IMO PS with APTs + PTs (or another 2-3 range munition like diamond-boron) worked pretty well.  It pushes the gunboats to the 50-point range, but makes them terrifying at range 1 and angry at ranges 2-3.  Pair one or two such gunboats with an effective ace or two and I suspect you'd create real problems for the opponent.  That might function as a proper hammer & anvil.

So something like this?  https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z164X240W136WWW139W134WY173X204W113WW105Y179X127WW&sn=Aces and PS Alpha&obs=

Or this: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z164X240W136WWW139WWY174X125W240WWY169XW113WY211X116WWW&sn=Aces and PS Alpha&obs=

But we'd need to give that some playtime to see if it pans out.  Given how infrequently we see alphas, maybe that's pretty damning.  Or maybe it's an opportunity to find what the meta players have missed.  Hope springs eternal! 

[Hiemfire 5,187]

10 hours ago, Azrapse said:

You cannot do Passive and get coordinated to have a double mod for missiles or torpedoes.

Partially true. If the ship with Passive Sensors is coordinated a Focus before their Perform Action step they can have double modded shots. Doable even with Nus using an OGP or SBP.

[PT106 2,251]

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Partially true. If the ship with Passive Sensors is coordinated a Focus before their Perform Action step they can have double modded shots. Doable even with Nus using an OGP or SBP.

The cheapest way to do it is Double Edge (Squad Leader + Dorsal = 40 pts)

[Hiemfire 5,187]

Never mind. Init kerfluffle on my end.

Edited August 23 by Hiemfire

[Wazat 655]

6 minutes ago, PT106 said:

The cheapest way to do it is Double Edge (Squad Leader + Dorsal = 40 pts)

Well that's an interesting thought.  Throw Double Edge onto the table purely as a coordinate user.  37-40 points for a pure support.

Though for 43 or 41 points you're looking at a Lambda or TIE Reaper, both of which are harder to trivially kill.  And that TIE Reaper moves like lightning and hits like a truck with its attack, so I'm very drawn to it still.    (I'm still extremely fond of TIE Reapers, gets me into trouble)

Perhaps upgrade that Dorsal Turret to Ion Cannon Turret, for some control.

[Blail Blerg 6,796]

10 hours ago, Wazat said:

Well that's an interesting thought.  Throw Double Edge onto the table purely as a coordinate user.  37-40 points for a pure support.

Though for 43 or 41 points you're looking at a Lambda or TIE Reaper, both of which are harder to trivially kill.  And that TIE Reaper moves like lightning and hits like a truck with its attack, so I'm very drawn to it still.    (I'm still extremely fond of TIE Reapers, gets me into trouble)

Perhaps upgrade that Dorsal Turret to Ion Cannon Turret, for some control.

Reminder that Coordinate is not GOLD because you spend an action to get an action. If Double Edge is caught in combat with his focus, its the same general effect as having whatever else you were coordinating just doing their thing without the extra coordinate. 

The places where that doesn't hold are where its a target the opponent doesn't really care about, like Lambda Soontir Vader. (Even then it actually matters hugely, because the lambdas shots need focus and it hugely suffers without it by coordinating elsewhere. big bad here too, only slightly mitigated) 

Double Edge is so squishy I'd have no trouble deciding to spend a turn blowing them up. 

Reapers really need their focus for attack too. No mods are bad. Rule #1: the focus rule. Never break the focus rule. 

[PT106 2,251]

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Double Edge is so squishy I'd have no trouble deciding to spend a turn blowing them up. 

Reapers really need their focus for attack too. No mods are bad. Rule #1: the focus rule. Never break the focus rule. 

No disagreement. In my mind it is a way to bump up initial alpha (to get that double-mods proton shot) and to semi-force target selection for opponent. One shouldn't expect him to survive initial round of combat if jousting.

[Wazat 655]

I personally don't mind losing a support craft in the initial engagement.  The double mod from its coordinate is pushing that alpha-strike's power to the limit so it has at least some chance of pushing past the enemy's evasion and having some effect, if not a devastating effect.  If they're devoting shots to the support, those are often points I'm willing to trade.

[mcgreag 205]

Tested these for the first time yesterday and I must say I didn't have very high expectations but was pleasantly surprised.

I only have 2 gunboats so I flew 2 Nu's with PS, OS-1 and Proton torpedoes. Vizer with Hull upgrade and Dutches with 5th Brother, Predator and Seismic Charges.

I don't think the TIE Reaper was worth it, I took it to be able to keep up with the gunboats but without advanced slam I didn't slam nearly as much as I am used to doing with them. If you want a support ship a Lambda with the Title would be a better choice, giving you significantly better damage output. I would also consider just running a 3rd Gunboat instead.

Dutches I do feel was a good choice, a flanker with decent damage output, a good finisher. Doesn't have to be Dutches, Soontir would work just fine but something that plays that type of role is needed in the list.

A thing to note is that I REALLY missed not having Advanced Slam and trying to make room for that would be one of my first changes. Yes I would slowboat the gunboats much more but not having access to Slam+Reload or Slam+defensive Focus really put limitations on my options.

[Bucknife 1,008]

Ruthless Rhos and Outmaneuver Rhos are definitely something I'd be afraid of in almost any configuration.