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Big Deal in a Pod

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3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why? Why is Rose not better?

Assuming you have a focus and heroic on both and both attack and defense happens at R2, not obstucted. So 2 dice being thrown per instance. Both also happens in multiple attack arcs so Rose have full procs.

Attack

  • Finn - 2.594 hits
  • Rose - 1.875 hits

Defense

  • Finn - 2.426 evades
  • Rose - 1.719 evades

They differ 2 points, but that is a substantial difference. If you deny the action, Finn without a focus means about nothing, where Rose on the other hand, depending on the attack arcs, still have some bite, but regardless, I will agree Finn is better than Rose for bang for buck though.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, PsychoCC said:

Assuming you have a focus and heroic on both and both attack and defense happens at R2, not obstucted. 

After playing Finn a bit: I don't think you can make that assumption about the Focus for Finn. Or rather, it doesn't reflect my experience with him.

Finn without perceptive copilot dies very quickly. All it takes are two shots and he's out of the fight. But with PC, he lives much longer. The ability to force 3 or even 4 attacks is huge.

You have to compare attack+defense, where Finn has his ability just once and Rose has it twice. I assume focus spending on defense, as it's more realistic. For Rose that's the mentioned 1.7185 defense on the first defense, 1.21 on the next defenses (I think?), and 1.5 attack. Finn gets the mentioned 2.43 on the first, 0.75 on the next defenses, and 1.1 on attack.

 

Just adding it up shows that Rose is better as soon as there are 2 attacks, 4.44 vs 4.28. If you add more attacks, it tilts of course more towards Rose. 3 attacks has the difference increasing from 0.16 to 0.28. 4 Attacks have the difference at 0.4 already. If you add perceptive copilot, that changes massively in Finn's favor. He is 0.42 ahead of Rose after 2 attacks, 0.3 after 3, and still 0.17 after 4 attacks.

So I disagree. Finn without perceptive is not better bang for buck compared to Rose (e: in a squad where she gets her ability consistently!)

Edited by GreenDragoon

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41 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

I think the issue that my opponent had was that Finn moved before everything else on the field, while my Inquisitors were practically impossible to block and could force the rest of his list to avoid falling into range of the missiles; I think my opponent was too focused on keeping his A-Wings clear of the missiles rather than closing to short range and engaging (a knife-fight which their mobile arcs could have caused serious headaches with). By the time that he did engage, I had placed damage cards onto Finn, which then were revealed when Lu'lo got a face full of Concussion Missiles while stressed. 

EDIT: I really wish I had pictures of the board, as it would help explain the engagements; due to the angle of attack (and Jendon blocking one of the exits) his A-wings had to move into an area where all of my arcs were pointing, and due to the SuperInq's ability to barrel roll back into a speed-one bank, I could maintain that coverage without moving too far forwards. That gave me two rounds of fairly optimal Concussion Missile firing for little response.

I get it. In general I feel Finn only works in beef lists, if you fly him with aces he's just left to die alone. 

 

But with 3 low initiative X wings flying in formation, something similar to what @GreenDragoon is flying, well then target priority becomes something else. 

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

After playing Finn a bit: I don't think you can make that assumption about the Focus for Finn. Or rather, it doesn't reflect my experience with him...

It is a good point, when I checked the maths, I did realize I am basically comparing Finn with PC as I use it on both, but then it means you are getting shot to use on both cases, where the case is often, you are not shot at at all that turn, so then Finn > Rose. You are shot at, Finn takes less damage, but then his return shot is worse off.

Spending your focus on defense and taking a normal shot yields Finn with 2.426 evades and 1.1 hits. Rose have 1.719 evades and 1.5 hits. Putting them closer. Also being i2 in a Pod I think is more of an advantage then being i3, as less chance of a block and Rose's ability do require more formation flying, so more limitation.

 

That they differ 3 points is an accurate reflection of their worth and difference, as depending on the scenario, both have their uses. Seeing Rose is 3 points less, I will say as the original question was "bang for your buck" and Finn being a wet noodle with no actions, you convinced me that Rose have that right in variety of circumstances.

P.S. You did mention it though, you can open up Finn with upgrades, ie. PC on Finn or C3P0 with Finn (for less offensive, but adding the support) synergises nicely with his ability, where you punch above your weight if left alone, if shot at, you can be tanky for your points, enabling other ships to do their thing. Nice for his points

Edited by PsychoCC

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

But with 3 low initiative X wings flying in formation, something similar to what @GreenDragoon is flying, well then target priority becomes something else. 

Indeed. Another - very cheap and cost effective - low end named pilot is Jess Pava - and the best way to reduce her effectiveness is to kill off her wingmen. Finn can't hang on to her indefinitely, since she has a much better dial, but he's cheap and tough and provides a warm body to bulk out Jess' wing whilst letting you spend a few more points on everyone else.

That said, as a 'back row' pilot for a mob of fighters, Rose is pretty good too - defensively. But offensively she's going to be a bit ineffectual with only 2-dice attacks.

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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37 minutes ago, PsychoCC said:

where the case is often, you are not shot at at all that turn, so then Finn > Rose. 

Yep, and I agree. But I think Finn should be the target in many cases.

Thinking through the numbers highlights when Finn is better or worse than Rose. She seems to win out in lists with many wingmen, and in a list were Finn would be an obvious first target of two or more attacks.

So I meet you in the middle: HeroicFinn is not the clearly better bang for buck than HeroicRose. That doesn't mean she is always the better choice! Just that the choice depends on the meta and the rest of the list.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BVRCH said:

 She is the worst of the 4 pod pilots.

What makes you say that?  

1 hour ago, BVRCH said:

Because her ability is solely dependent on having your other ships in harm's way.

That's not accurate.  Defensively, yes.  Offensively, her ability is predicated upon friendly ships being in her arc, so they could be outside of opposing arcs.

Edited by gennataos
grammatical accuracy is hard

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You either find the room and make the investment on Perceptive Copilot and Pattern Analyzer (or Adv Optics I guess, but PA IMO is better) OR you keep him as cheap as possible and only take Heroic and MAYBE C3PO crew if nowhere else to spend pts. 

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2 hours ago, RStan said:

You either find the room and make the investment on Perceptive Copilot and Pattern Analyzer (or Adv Optics I guess, but PA IMO is better) OR you keep him as cheap as possible and only take Heroic and MAYBE C3PO crew if nowhere else to spend pts. 

I'd almost say that a Hull or Shield is a no-brainer if you're already coughing up 12+ points to optimize his output. 

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2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I'd almost say that a Hull or Shield is a no-brainer if you're already coughing up 12+ points to optimize his output. 

Probably not, I think 42-43 is the perfect balance, anything else and its overspending. Plus one more health ain't gonna save him. He either gets slowly chipped away health by health in which case he already did his job or the opponent catches him in a bad spot without focus and then no amount of health is saving him. 

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53 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

Probably not, I think 42-43 is the perfect balance, anything else and its overspending. Plus one more health ain't gonna save him. He either gets slowly chipped away health by health in which case he already did his job or the opponent catches him in a bad spot without focus and then no amount of health is saving him. 

While I too believe adding in a hull or shield upgrade on Finn is a bit much, it does increase the amount of damage necessary for opponents to get half pts. 

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8 hours ago, gennataos said:

What makes you say that?  

That's not accurate.  Defensively, yes.  Offensively, her ability is predicated upon friendly ships being in her arc, so they could be outside of opposing arcs.

Pedantry aside, she needs her friends to be in particular spot for her ability to trigger. Considering how poor the ships stats are, this is rarely worth orienting a squad around. Moradi provides intel for the rest of the squad, and can double down with informant; without having to be in any formation. BB-8 provides additional movement options that the chassis lacks. Maybe you've got 26pts left in a salad squad and Rose fits in well, fine; but that's a niche case. The other pilots are more versatile. Rose provides a less efficient means of modifying dice than Finn, with an ability that's harder to trigger.

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13 hours ago, BVRCH said:

Pedantry aside, she needs her friends to be in particular spot for her ability to trigger. Considering how poor the ships stats are, this is rarely worth orienting a squad around. Moradi provides intel for the rest of the squad, and can double down with informant; without having to be in any formation. BB-8 provides additional movement options that the chassis lacks. Maybe you've got 26pts left in a salad squad and Rose fits in well, fine; but that's a niche case. The other pilots are more versatile. Rose provides a less efficient means of modifying dice than Finn, with an ability that's harder to trigger.

I think it depends on the list.  The first pod I'd try to get in would always be Heroic Finn.  I've not played Vi yet, but remarks from people who have say Vi generally doesn't live long enough to provide that intel for very long and/or it requires Vi to be put in weird positions to try to trigger it reliably.  BB-8, oh BB-8.  I wanted him to work, but he's so slow that I didn't get a ton of value out of his pre-movement reposition.  On top of that, he can only take a calculate, which means his defense and offense just plain sucks.  Rose, however, I like her if there's something I3 or lower for her to drift behind, and in a 4-ship Resistance list, something is else is going to be I3 or lower.

I don't know if you've played them all yourself, I've only played three of the four.  I'd recommend trying Rose if you haven't already, provided you have a list in which she makes sense.  

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On 8/12/2019 at 5:52 PM, Flurpy said:

I think we are in agreement here. If you want an arc dodger, Lulo is the better choice. If you want an distraction Finn is a better choice. At 42 he is the cheapest in my 4 ship list so tanking two rounds of shooting is all I ask of him. 

But just a slight point, putting PA on him opens up the dial gloriously. While he will never arc dodge like a A Wing, those hard ones, bank threes and k turn being done while still double focused makes him a knife fighters like no other for those points. 

For the most part haha. I would say Finn is definitely a very good choice as a distraction at 30pts, but Lulo (or any A-wing) can also be a great distraction as their ability to run and gun is almost unmatched. So a 42pt Finn is still a decision to make in my eyes.

Not only is Lulo 43pts, but Greer and Bangel are cheaper and are great options, but you can also get a full transport with autoblasters and PA for 41pts. It doesn't mod dice like Finn but it does double the HP. I'm not saying these options are necessarily better, I'm just saying there are a lot of options at that price point, some being more versatile.

I do agree that Finn will almost always last longer than an A-wing shot for shot. You get caught out with an A-wing, you're going to take damage. Finn, can get out of those scenarios unscathed. In an alpha strike or swarm meta, I agree he's a better choice (unless you're running an RZ-2 swarm yourself). 

I just don't think he's a 'be all and end all' choice at 42pts, like he is at 30pts. He is definitely more efficient with the addition upgrades I'm not disputing that, I just don't believe the additional investment is worth the return.

10 hours ago, gennataos said:

I think it depends on the list.  The first pod I'd try to get in would always be Heroic Finn.  I've not played Vi yet, but remarks from people who have say Vi generally doesn't live long enough to provide that intel for very long and/or it requires Vi to be put in weird positions to try to trigger it reliably.  BB-8, oh BB-8.  I wanted him to work, but he's so slow that I didn't get a ton of value out of his pre-movement reposition.  On top of that, he can only take a calculate, which means his defense and offense just plain sucks.  Rose, however, I like her if there's something I3 or lower for her to drift behind, and in a 4-ship Resistance list, something is else is going to be I3 or lower.

I don't know if you've played them all yourself, I've only played three of the four.  I'd recommend trying Rose if you haven't already, provided you have a list in which she makes sense.  

It definitely does, all of the points in this discussion are dependent on the list. That is why I'm trying to generalise and comment on versatility rather than niche efficiencies.

All valid points on Vi Moradi. She does however get the defensive bonus against her compromised target though, which sometimes helps/sometimes doesn't. I have found the compromised intel alone usually baits your opponent into engaging Moradi, letting you set up a counter. In the case they don't take the bait, you can sit at range 3 and map the big bad of your opponents list until they do. You can hide her behind a squad, or have her flank and use her as a lure. I still find that more useful and flexible than Rose's ability.

I agree BB-8 is still quite slow. I'm not saying he's great by any means, but the red boost into blue 2 straight is faster than the others, and provides some movement flexibility the other pilots simply don't possess. He has a talent slot for a cheap expert handling, and threepio helps with tokens (although you're getting into Finn territory at that point). Rose's talent slot is not really useful, nor are most of her other upgrade slots.

The only thing I really think Rose is good for is a cheap Holdo shuttle. That is where I think she has some value. 

10 hours ago, buckero0 said:

what about Lulo AND Finn in a list?

 

Now you're talking!

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