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Karneck

I already broke Surprise Attack with the SSD

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Posted (edited)

In Surprise Attack, you can place the station and another obstacle (the small asteroid) in such a way that if an SSD is on the table as the flagship, it CANNOT deploy on the 1st players edge and overlap the station.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Lkygni9Dc7tjmIhzJ6ImCTpadEsKnTve/view
This means that in order to fix this objective, it will need an errata by the Devs.

For the time being, it is a personal ruling of mine (not officially supported by FFG) that the SSD is able to deploy on the station, touching the first players edge and overlap any obstacles that may be in the way as long as the player attempts to find any other method of deploying the SSD without touching obstacles.

Or the players will need to have a gentlemen's agreement to not put the station and obstacles in such a manner as to prevent the SSD from deploying.

Edited by Karneck

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This would not be enough. Alling the SSD to deploy without touching the zone could be still a problem. You can place the 3 obstacles (that the second player can place) in a way that the SSD cannot touch the station at all. The only way is that i can overlap obstacles with this mission.
The problem is, that the base of the ship is a tiny bid wider than distance 1. This means, with two obstacles at exact distance 1, the SSD does not fit between these. 

But it would work, when they allow to deploy the ship out of the setup zone, in addition to remove the back zone touching. 

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2 hours ago, Tokra said:

This would not be enough. Alling the SSD to deploy without touching the zone could be still a problem. You can place the 3 obstacles (that the second player can place) in a way that the SSD cannot touch the station at all. The only way is that i can overlap obstacles with this mission.
The problem is, that the base of the ship is a tiny bid wider than distance 1. This means, with two obstacles at exact distance 1, the SSD does not fit between these. 

But it would work, when they allow to deploy the ship out of the setup zone, in addition to remove the back zone touching. 

 

But The Ship is already allowed to deploy outside of the Setup zone - its implied because it has to be in touch with the station, after all.

So the only stickler rule is the touching the players edge rule.  That's all you need to be released from, because you're already released from the first one.

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Setup zone. Not deployment zone 😁.

The Deployment rules from the SSD are:
When a player deploys a huge ship, part of its base must be touching that player's play area edge. The huge ship may extend outside of that player's deployment zone but its base must be completely within the setup area.

If you "could" deploy outside of the setup zone, you don't have to touch the players play area as well 😉

But the SSD has to be placed with the whole base in the setup zone, and it has to touching the players edge (and this is, in this case, as well the deployment zone edge).
Though you can block the deployment of the SSD as Karneck was showing.

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Basically @Karneck is right. This mission will cause problems and prevent the SSD from deploying.

On his picture, it was just possible because he can place the station at the edge of the setup zone. And because the SSD is not allowed to deploy outside of the setup zone, about half of the area is blocked.

IF the SSD would be allowed to deploy outside of the setup zone, there is a lot of room where no obstacle can block him.

But than you will find other setup of the obstacles where you cannot deploy. Like all 3, that you can place, in a half circle around the station. Doing exact the same. Blocking the SSD from deploying. For this you need the rule that he can be deployed without touching the players edge.
But you need both (allowed in the setup zone and not touching the players edge). Or you will always find a way to block it. 
Or just allow the SSD to overlap with obstacles… 😉

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Posted (edited)

Okay, I think we're obviously talking about different things, because for me:


RRG, Page 10, "SETUP AREA"

SETUP AREA

The setup area is the region of the play area in which ships, squadrons, obstacle tokens, and objective tokens are placed during setup. The setup area for a 300 fleet point game is the 3' x 4' area in the center of the play area. If playing with a 3' x 3' play area, the entire play area is the setup area. The setup area is marked by setup area markers. After setup is complete, the setup area markers are removed from the play area.


(which of course is modified to the 400pt game in the Tournament Regs)

 

 

So I'm not getting what you mean by "Setup Zone" there.  

Edited by Drasnighta

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Posted (edited)

Updated my original personal ruling after further discussion with others.

For the time being, it is a personal ruling of mine (not officially supported by FFG) that the SSD is able to deploy on the station, touching the first players edge and overlap any obstacles that may be in the way as long as the first player attempts to find any other method of deploying the SSD without touching obstacles.

Edited by Karneck

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15 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

So I'm not getting what you mean by "Setup Zone" there.  

Sorry, i mean Setup Area when i say zone.

The picture from @Ginkapo shows what i mean. Because the SSD is not allowed to deploy in the setup "area", it is so easy to block his deployment.
But even if you could deploy the SSD in the setup area, it would still be possible to block him, with the station in the middle, and 3 obstacles around.

The rule that the SSD can overlap obstacles seems really the easiest way, even when it can hurt the SSD quite a bit 😉 (not on deployment, but later on moving).

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Posted (edited)

Is it not as simple as "objective card" overwrite "setup rules"?

If the SSD still must be place "touching it's player edge" why any other ship doesn't have to do the same with "ships must be place within their player's deployment zones"?

I'm not sure I'm getting the problem you talk about...

Edited by ovinomanc3r

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Because the SSD can accomplish the objective card setup without breaking any Reference Rules stated for the SSD, compared to any small, medium, or large base ships, which DO have to break their reference rule in order to complete the setup rule.

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Quote

 

Fleet Ambush:

Setup: The portion of the setup area that is beyond distance 5 of any edge of the setup area is the Ambush Zone. Players mark the corners of the ambush zone with objective tokens.

Players take turns deploying fleets as normal but must deploy all ships before deploying any squadrons. The first player must deploy ships within the ambush zone on his odd-numbered deployment turn, starting with his first turn. He cannot deploy ships or squadrons overlapping obstacles in the ambush zone. After setup is complete, he removes all objective tokens from the play area.

 

 

Fleet ambush wording is different, it very specifically states that first player must deploy ships within the ambush zone on odd numbered deployments.

An SSD can fit completely within an ambush zone as long as the first player is also not tossing obstacles into it.
So if 1st player with an SSD has multiple ships, he can easily deploy a non SSD ship into the ambush zone, and then place the SSD as normal on the backline.

 

I DO want to point out, that if 1st player did only bring an SSD, and first player willingly and knowingly clogs up the fleet ambush zone with the obstacles he places,  the objective states you cannot deploy on obstacles in the ambush zone, meaning that if there IS no room for your SSD to deploy, your SSD cannot deploy and since any ships or squadrons that didn't deploy in a game are considered destroyed, you instantly lose.


How are these two things different? In fleet ambush the 1st player must willingly hinder himself by placing obstacles in the fleet ambush area to prevent his deployment. I have no sympathy.

In Surprise Attack, second player with foreknowledge of this tactic can WILLINGLY create a game breaking state because he can place the small asteroid as the first obstacle placement to block the first player with an SSD and no knowledge that it is possible to block out the SSD. That, I consider borderline intentional cheating and there is no reason the first player should be punished for that.

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5 hours ago, Karneck said:

Because the SSD can accomplish the objective card setup without breaking any Reference Rules stated for the SSD, compared to any small, medium, or large base ships, which DO have to break their reference rule in order to complete the setup rule.

Until it cannot, when it DO have to break its reference rule in order to complete the setup rule (following the same logic) and the setup may be completed without needing any kind of fix.

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7 hours ago, Phil B said:

So how does the SSD work with fleet ambush if it has to touch its own edge?

 

3 hours ago, Karneck said:

An SSD can fit completely within an ambush zone as long as the first player is also not tossing obstacles into it.

 

1 hour ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Until it cannot, when it DO have to break its reference rule in order to complete the setup rule (following the same logic) and the setup may be completed without needing any kind of fix.

Fleet Ambush and SSD do not work. But not for this reasons.
You are not able to place the SSD in the Ambush zone (if the second player places the obstacles correct).

This means, basically, you are not breaking any rules from the SSD in this case 😁

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Posted (edited)

Let's break down the rules, [large wall of text incoming]. The normal deployment rules:

Quote

Players deploy in turns beginning with the first player. A single deployment turn consists of placing one ship... Ships must be placed within their player’s deployment zones

So three points, (1) on ordering/timing, (2) saying you place ships one at a time, (3) saying where they have to be. This last one is the important one.

Surprise Attack has the following rule:

Quote

While deploying fleets, the first player must deploy their flagship before deploying any other ships. Their flagship must overlap the station, even if the flagship extends beyond their deployment zone.

This has three main parts; (4) flagship gets deployed first, (5) must overlap the station, (6) can extend beyond deployment zone.

So (4) and (5) are rules to add on top of the normal rules (things you could do normally - in theory - but now have to do). (6) is the explicit qualifier to override normal deployment rule (3). Normally you cannot deploy outside the deployment zone, but Surprise Attack rule point (6) overrides this (following the Golden Rule on cards overriding the rules reference).

Huge ships have extra rules for deployment:

Quote

When a player deploys a huge ship, part of its base must be touching that player's play area edge. The huge ship may extend outside of that player's deployment zone but its base must be completely within the setup area. A huge ship cannot be deployed overlapping obstacles.

The relevant parts are; (7) the ship must touch the edge of the play area, (8) the ship can extend out of the deployment zones, (9) must be in the setup area, (10) cannot be deployed overlapping obstacles.

So of these (7) and (10) are new restrictions on how a ship can be deployed, (8) removes the default deployment rule point (3), and (9) qualifies that [as an aside, note that the "in the setup area" restriction isn't included in the Surprise Attack rule - so a non-Huge ship could be deployed in Surprise Attack outside the setup area.]

How does Surprise Attack interact with the Huge ship rules (noting that Surprise Attack will always win if there is a conflict)?

(5) - must overlap the station - explicitly overrides part of (10) - cannot overlap obstacles. But nothing else is overruled explicitly (none of the other Surprise Attack rules necessarily breaks any of the Huge ship rules).

So we have a few options:

  1. You can break the game; there is no way to deploy your Huge Ship, it cannot be deployed, it counts as destroyed, 0-400 loss (unless you have a different flagship) [similar to Fleet Ambush]
  2. Surprise Attack point (5) (must overlap the station) not only overrides rule (10) (cannot overlap obstacles) as far as the station goes, but as far as all obstacles go (i.e. it overrides the whole rule). Letting you deploy the huge ship overlapping other obstacles as well.
  3. Surprise Attack as a whole implicitly overrides other parts of the huge ship rules; either rule (7) (must touch the edge) or rule (9) (must be in the setup area).

I don't like 3, because it is ambiguous as to which of those rules it overrides. If it overrides one, there's no reason it shouldn't override the other. It's also an implied thing - we have to read into the rules.

I think 2 is a good solution for now. And might be part of the intention. The normal deployment rules don't stop you overlapping obstacles (although it rarely comes up), only the huge ship rules. Surprise Attack may have been written with that in mind, but forgetting about the Huge ship qualifier. Plus the rule is already being overridden, we're just implicitly extending it to cover all obstacles not just the station. But it is still adding stuff to the rules.

1 is the safe approach (until we get confirmation from FFG); doesn't involve any implied changes to the rules, but does lead to boring games.

Perhaps the best option is not to choose Surprise Attack if you have an SSD Flagship.

Edited by Grumbleduke

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22 hours ago, Tokra said:

 

 

Fleet Ambush and SSD do not work. But not for this reasons.
You are not able to place the SSD in the Ambush zone (if the second player places the obstacles correct).

This means, basically, you are not breaking any rules from the SSD in this case 😁

We tried it. You cant block the SSD with just three obstacles in fleet ambush. You can give it only deployment spot though. 

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1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

We tried it. You cant block the SSD with just three obstacles in fleet ambush. You can give it only deployment spot though. 

I could be wrong, but can it be, that you cannot place the SSD in this setup:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P1dAmMCvIVXXC2TtSn47Hygj6WBB83RZ/view?usp=sharing

This ship is a bid more than distance 1 wide. This means, if the obstacles are placed at exact distance 1, the SSD cannot fit between these.
 

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