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Mysterioso

Question about Epic

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Soo, I was thinking about preparing for the arrival of Epic, and I was wondering, well, how epic is Epic going to be? So if I was going for Scum with a C-ROC, how many small ships in squadrons are we talking? Or a Raider with however many FO TIEs to support it?

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28 minutes ago, Mysterioso said:

Soo, I was thinking about preparing for the arrival of Epic, and I was wondering, well, how epic is Epic going to be? So if I was going for Scum with a C-ROC, how many small ships in squadrons are we talking? Or a Raider with however many FO TIEs to support it?

From what I can tell it'll vary scenario to scenario. We should be getting more information on the 22nd of this month. FFG is doing a live stream focused on multiplayer (more than 2) Epic.

Link to the article listing their stream schedule for this month: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/8/2/ffg-live-in-august/

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Posted (edited)

Difficult to say without the huge ship point values and upgrades and also what the point cost is for the squadron upgrades.  In first edition below is one of my favourite 300 point lists, which may give an indication of what a 600 point list may look like (although I believe Epic games will be 500 points).

TIE/D Epic (297)

Gozanti-class Cruiser (58) - Gozanti-class Cruiser
•Grand Moff Tarkin (6), Dual Laser Turret (5), Docking Clamps (0), •Vector (2), Automated Protocols (5)

Storm Squadron Pilot (23) - TIE Advanced
TIE/x1 (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Storm Squadron Pilot (23) - TIE Advanced
TIE/x1 (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Storm Squadron Pilot (23) - TIE Advanced
TIE/x1 (0), Accuracy Corrector (3)

Glaive Squadron Pilot (41) - TIE Defender
Predator (3), Ion Cannon (3), TIE/D (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Glaive Squadron Pilot (41) - TIE Defender
Predator (3), Ion Cannon (3), TIE/D (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Royal Guard Pilot (22) - TIE Interceptor
Adaptability (0)

Royal Guard Pilot (22) - TIE Interceptor
Adaptability (0)

Royal Guard Pilot (22) - TIE Interceptor
Adaptability (0)

Royal Guard Pilot (22) - TIE Interceptor
Adaptability (0)

 

Edited by Sasajak

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Posted (edited)

The above list is basically what I would expect Epic listbuilding to look like.   About 8-12 ships, mostly generics, a couple aces, and a Huge.

In 1.0, this is basically what my lists were.

Interestingly, I would have always recommended minimal aces and units of generics; the flight tool almost mandates that now.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Posted (edited)

In my experience epic point totals varied a lot the 300 points was more recommendation than rule.  I suspect it will be the same 2.0.  

 In 1st it could be punishing to take the raider or the Corvette unless your opponent also took one.  Just because it was such a large point sink.  Generics ruled as aces just got focus fired.  Which made for a really different experience.  

 

2.0 epic looks well thought out upgrades like agent of the empire will help aces but it's limited so it wont change the make up of the format too much.  Which is good because too many aces will slow the game down.

 

Edited by reqent

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, reqent said:

In my experience epic point totals varied a lot the 300 points was more recommendation than rule.  I suspect it will be the same 2.0.  

 In 1st it could be punishing to take the raider or the Corvette unless your opponent also took one.  Just because it was such a large point sink.  Generics ruled as aces just got focus fired.  Which made for a really different experience.  

 

2.0 epic looks well thought out upgrades like agent of the empire will help aces but it's limited so it wont change the make up of the format too much.  Which is good because too many aces will slow the game down.

 

In 1st Ed, Epic meant 300 pts with the epic ships.   That's not the case in 2nd Ed.  The ships are now called Huge ships, not Epic ships.  Epic now refers to the Epic Battles product and the scenarios within.  The Epic Battles may or may not have Huge ships.  We also don't know the various point levels for their scenarios. 

Edited by heychadwick

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A fun list I flew was my mini battle of Yavin squad...

Without listing all the upgrades, I had a fairly loaded up Corvette, Lando to pass target locks to a couple of Gold Squad Y-Wings with Ion torps, 2 Green Squadron snap/crack A-Wings, and Wedge with Red Squadron Wingmate.

 

Some key things that others have said, Aces had no where to run and hide as too many arcs meant no token stack was big enough to keep you alive against 5-8 shots.  Weapons that were weak against 2-3 ship lists become monsters against 6-12 ship lists - Ion Torpedoes and Assault missiles were king.  And pilots with long range or non-"once per turn" abilities really came through in Epic, such as Etahn Abaht (same ability as Gavin Darklighter in 2.0).  Flank him with 4-8 Z-95's and you unleashed a hail storm of crits on everything in front of you.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, heychadwick said:

In 1st Ed, Epic meant 300 pts with the epic ships.   That's not the case in 2nd Ed.  The ships are now called Huge ships, not Epic ships.  Epic now refers to the Epic Battles product and the scenarios within.  The Epic Battles may or may not have Huge ships.  We also don't know the various point levels for their scenarios. 

Just to clarify in 1.0 they called them huge ships.  Originally you didn't need to field a huge ship https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/X-Wing-Epic-Tournament-Rules.pdf in epic (it was just the only format you could play huge ships in).  The more recent rules under 1.0 do show the huge ship requirement but my store's epic scene was long dead before the CROC (which is why I put my experience).

I had difficult time finding by the book epic games because it wasn't the standard format.  FFG may recommend certain point levels for team games and whether or not you can take a huge ship in a particular mission.  In theory that's fine but once you get 8 people in the same room somebody may dislike huge ships, or want to play different point totals then you have to decide how to accommodate them or make other adjustments. 

I expect the multiplayer expansion to be more of a guide than a dogmatic ruleset.  It wouldn't surprise me if they show how to scale points based on the number of players and the time those players want to spend.  

The A larger world preview articles mentions some of the missions being 500 points or 20 threat squadrons (unfortunately there are no threat levels visible on the huge ship previews at least that I can find).  Hopefully that helps.

 

Edited by reqent

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5 hours ago, heychadwick said:

In 1st Ed, Epic meant 300 pts with the epic ships

First edition epic was all a bit confusing... huge ships had an epic icon to denote they could only be played in epic games or cinematic play.  Each huge ship also had an epic point value.  A “normal” epic game, as defined in the epic tournament rules, was 300 points limit and a 5 Epic point limit which would allow eg a Gozanti and Raider.  My list above, taking a Gozanti, used 2 epic points out of the 5 available.

By releasing an epic set and huge ships separately second edition has managed to clearly define the differences which were already there in first edition.

3 hours ago, reqent said:

I expect the multiplayer expansion to be more of a guide than a dogmatic ruleset

I hope not.  I want firm and play tested rules for standardised epic (multi-player/scenario) play.  It will make organising these things much easier.  Of course they can be used as a guide for creating our own stuff too but we need a firm core of official stuff for us casuals to feed off.

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5 hours ago, reqent said:

Just to clarify in 1.0 they called them huge ships.  Originally you didn't need to field a huge ship https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/X-Wing-Epic-Tournament-Rules.pdf in epic (it was just the only format you could play huge ships in).  The more recent rules under 1.0 do show the huge ship requirement but my store's epic scene was long dead before the CROC (which is why I put my experience).

I had difficult time finding by the book epic games because it wasn't the standard format.  FFG may recommend certain point levels for team games and whether or not you can take a huge ship in a particular mission.  In theory that's fine but once you get 8 people in the same room somebody may dislike huge ships, or want to play different point totals then you have to decide how to accommodate them or make other adjustments. 

I expect the multiplayer expansion to be more of a guide than a dogmatic ruleset.  It wouldn't surprise me if they show how to scale points based on the number of players and the time those players want to spend.  

The A larger world preview articles mentions some of the missions being 500 points or 20 threat squadrons (unfortunately there are no threat levels visible on the huge ship previews at least that I can find).  Hopefully that helps.

 

The Raider preview shows a 9 threat quick build.

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6 hours ago, rawbean said:

The Raider preview shows a 9 threat quick build.

I should have realized they weren't going to do 8 or 9 bars thanks for pointing that out.

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11 hours ago, reqent said:

Just to clarify in 1.0 they called them huge ships.  Originally you didn't need to field a huge ship https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/X-Wing-Epic-Tournament-Rules.pdf in epic (it was just the only format you could play huge ships in).  The more recent rules under 1.0 do show the huge ship requirement but my store's epic scene was long dead before the CROC (which is why I put my experience).

I had difficult time finding by the book epic games because it wasn't the standard format.  FFG may recommend certain point levels for team games and whether or not you can take a huge ship in a particular mission.  In theory that's fine but once you get 8 people in the same room somebody may dislike huge ships, or want to play different point totals then you have to decide how to accommodate them or make other adjustments. 

 

7 hours ago, Sasajak said:

First edition epic was all a bit confusing... huge ships had an epic icon to denote they could only be played in epic games or cinematic play.  Each huge ship also had an epic point value.  A “normal” epic game, as defined in the epic tournament rules, was 300 points limit and a 5 Epic point limit which would allow eg a Gozanti and Raider.  My list above, taking a Gozanti, used 2 epic points out of the 5 available.

At first, Epic was just the big ships.  That's all it was.  Then, they created a format called "epic" which was 300 points each side.   Next, no one was taking the big ships, so they added in the Epic Points rules.   Overall, Epic meant the big ships in 1st Ed.

Quote

I expect the multiplayer expansion to be more of a guide than a dogmatic ruleset.  It wouldn't surprise me if they show how to scale points based on the number of players and the time those players want to spend.  

There are going to be 11 "scenarios", much like the ones in the starter kit.   They will have some for different points and more than 2 players.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Sasajak said:

 

I hope not.  I want firm and play tested rules for standardised epic (multi-player/scenario) play.  It will make organising these things much easier.  Of course they can be used as a guide for creating our own stuff too but we need a firm core of official stuff for us casuals to feed off.

My post wasnt well worded.   I meant more the points and ship requirements  can be fluid not the  actual rule set.  

Edited by reqent
Word choice

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1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

At first, Epic was just the big ships.  That's all it was.  Then, they created a format called "epic" which was 300 points each side.   Next, no one was taking the big ships, so they added in the Epic Points rules.   Overall, Epic meant the big ships in 1st Ed.

I really don’t know why I’m so bothered how it was though now it’s coming to second edition 🤣 but I really don’t remember it like you 😂

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17 hours ago, Sasajak said:

I really don’t know why I’m so bothered how it was though now it’s coming to second edition 🤣 but I really don’t remember it like you 😂

Yeah, how it will soon be is a better topic.   I will say, though, that EPIC in 2nd Ed will be the Epic Battles, which is scenarios that may or may not have huge ships.   Everyone wants to say "epic" for the huge ships, but it's not the right nomenclature to use.

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12 hours ago, heychadwick said:

Yeah, how it will soon be is a better topic.   I will say, though, that EPIC in 2nd Ed will be the Epic Battles, which is scenarios that may or may not have huge ships.   Everyone wants to say "epic" for the huge ships, but it's not the right nomenclature to use.

So what would be the correct nomenclature? "Do you want to play a casual game where I can use my huge ship?" I guess that's technically correct, but it doesn't really roll of the tongue, you know?

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3 hours ago, Parakitor said:

So what would be the correct nomenclature? "Do you want to play a casual game where I can use my huge ship?" I guess that's technically correct, but it doesn't really roll of the tongue, you know?

They say you can use the huge ships in any non-tournament game.  So....just ask if they want to play casual and pop one of those big suckers on the table!!! :D

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On 8/10/2019 at 9:02 AM, heychadwick said:

I know some of the Epic games will be more than 200 pts, but will all of them? They haven't stated that.  EPIC will be different scenarios that MAY have a huge ship.  For example, the multiplayer one might just be each with 200 pts.

youre not wrong, but man I hope games of Epic arent that small. The whole point of epic is that its epic.  the Raider or Cr90 just dont make sense if they arent monsters,  and to be monsters they need to be 200ish points by themselves.  I'd much rather see epic be 300 to 800 points,  where you might have a Croc and 6 Scyks as a small list. any less than that is just a regular game

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8 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

youre not wrong, but man I hope games of Epic arent that small. The whole point of epic is that its epic.  the Raider or Cr90 just dont make sense if they arent monsters,  and to be monsters they need to be 200ish points by themselves.  I'd much rather see epic be 300 to 800 points,  where you might have a Croc and 6 Scyks as a small list. any less than that is just a regular game

Epic now equals "Epic Battles" and the scenarios in them.  That includes that multiplayer one where everyone is trying to control satellites.  That one will surely be 200 points.

Besides a specific scenario that has so many points where you can bring a huge ship, the "epic" format of 300 pts (or now 600) per side is dead as an official thing.   You will be free to do whatever you want or to play one of the scenarios that has a lot of points.

 

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Wings will have a huge impact on fighter selection.  There are 8 wing upgrades (one for each faction and a generic which requires all ships that must be the same type).  Agent of the Empire has been fully revealed while first order elite was partially spoiled.  

 

Using a single dial to move the ships is interesting because the x1 and v1 have different dials from the tie fighters.   We don't know the specifics but if TIEs can start doing 2 talon rolls or straight 1's it will change how they play.  

The first order only magnifies this because you can take TIE/FO and TIE/SF.  Assuming the silencer is an option that would mean your SF's may gain a white 1 hard turn. 

The wings will really impact arc dodgers as well.  The ability to pass damage to other ships in the wing will help mitigate this but it is interesting.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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